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Torqueflight problem?
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jimntempe
Posted 2015-12-05 10:54 PM (#497055)
Subject: Torqueflight problem?



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Sometimes my 60 dodge feels like the brakes are applying themselves during the last 7 feet of a stop. It's as if I was pushing much harder on the pedal even though I'm not and the car stops faster than I would have. Sometimes this is smooth, sometimes it's very very jerky, like 5 jerks in the last 7 feet making the car lurch as it stops. At the end of these stops, whether smooth or jerky, it feels like the brakes are still on even with the pedal released... the car won't creep forward at all and giving it a little gas produces no movement but you can tell the transmission is in gear as the engine loads up. But if you give it more gas, maybe up to 1000 to 1200 rpm, it starts to move and whatever was holding the car from moving goes away. When I had the driveshaft off to check the parking brake I tried turning the transmission output shaft. Sometimes it would turn freely either way. Other times I could turn the shaft in one direction ok but as soon as I tried turning it the other direction it would not turn. THen I'd turn it the first way again and then try to reverse it. After a few times it would usually then turn the other way. My memory is fuzzy now but I think it would do it both ways, clockwise OK but not CCW, then CCW ok but not CW. Then either way OK. So I'm beginning to think something is going on inside the transmission. Like one of the bands is grabbing the drum even when it's not supposed to. The transmission shifts fine, no delay, no flaring, immediate engagement, no funny noises. To me the brakes don't act like they are the problem. WHen this happens the car does not swerve at all, it's like both rear wheels are being retarded exactly up the same, not at all like one side is locking. THere is no front wheel brake feel, no pull on the steering wheel.

Has anyone ever heard of this kind of behaviour for a Torqueflite? My next idea is to get the bands adjusted (or try doing it myself). Maybe someone adjusted the bands too tight? Has anyone done this themselves with the car on jackstands? Is it hard to do? It sounds pretty straightforward but some descriptions make it sound like you need some kind of special wrench for it.
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Polybun
Posted 2015-12-05 11:01 PM (#497056 - in reply to #497055)
Subject: Re: Torqueflight problem?



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Sounds to me like one or both of the bearings that the output shaft is toast. Have I heard of it happening, nope... is the trans 55 years old, yep. If it were me, I would prepare to rebuild that trans, because it sure doesn't sound good to me. Hopefully I'm wrong, hopefully if i'm right only the bearing is damaged. But keep in mind, if things start spinning inside of the bearing or the bearing spinning around inside of things, you could end up with a lot of junk parts really quick... like, an entire torqueflight full of junked parts. :/

I would go buy a case of beer if I were you.
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wizard
Posted 2015-12-06 4:33 AM (#497074 - in reply to #497055)
Subject: Re: Torqueflight problem?



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Start to pull the parking brake drum and check that the brake shoes are in their correct position - it's very common that the lock has fallen off and the brake shoes take whatever position they like to......
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big m
Posted 2015-12-06 12:41 PM (#497102 - in reply to #497074)
Subject: Re: Torqueflight problem?



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wizard - 2015-12-06 1:33 AM

Start to pull the parking brake drum and check that the brake shoes are in their correct position - it's very common that the lock has fallen off and the brake shoes take whatever position they like to......


I've had the very same thing happen, Wiz.

---John
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jimntempe
Posted 2015-12-06 1:05 PM (#497104 - in reply to #497055)
Subject: Re: Torqueflight problem?



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I did pull the parking brake drum a month ago in an effort to track down this issue. The p brake looked fine, almost like new. That was when I started experimenting with turning the output shaft and found out that it sometimes would bind on something.
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jimntempe
Posted 2015-12-06 1:07 PM (#497105 - in reply to #497055)
Subject: Re: Torqueflight problem?



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Hmm, the bearing idea does make some sense. It would even explain why sometimes it binds in one direction and other times in the other direction. At 114,000 miles and 55 years I suppose a rebuild wouldn't be out of order.
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wizard
Posted 2015-12-06 1:55 PM (#497110 - in reply to #497055)
Subject: Re: Torqueflight problem?



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It's not a common thing that the output shaft bearing (or bushing) gives up. Perhaps the overrunning clutch could be shot - the bands are not plausible as you inform a normal function of the transmission.
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Polybun
Posted 2015-12-06 2:07 PM (#497112 - in reply to #497105)
Subject: Re: Torqueflight problem?



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Well, and keep in mind the environment that stuff is in. Not the greatest cooling, you've got clutch dust from the clutch packs, clutch dust from the bands, and to top it all off, not real great filtering. The cast iron torqueflights don't have the nice filter that the aluminum case torqueflights have. They just have a wire screen and that really doesn't catch much. Which is why the pan has a drain plug. Your suppose to change that trans fluid twice a year or so on those. Now, how often do you think that actually happens?

Something I keep considering is plumbing in some sort of filter into the cooling lines. Not needed on the aluminum case trans but I think on the cast iron case trans it could really help.
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57chizler
Posted 2015-12-06 2:51 PM (#497120 - in reply to #497055)
Subject: RE: Torqueflight problem?



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Find yourself a nice open area and slow to a stop, as the jerking begins release the brake pedal and push the Neutral button and allow the car to roll to a stop. Report what happens.
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jimntempe
Posted 2015-12-06 8:59 PM (#497149 - in reply to #497055)
Subject: Re: Torqueflight problem?



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Terrific idea. I will do that.
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jimntempe
Posted 2015-12-07 7:14 PM (#497232 - in reply to #497055)
Subject: Re: Torqueflight problem?



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Did a quick check today just in the driveway. It was doing the binding feel thing and putting it in Neutral didn't change anything. I'm going to start looking at the brakes for adjustment, leaks, etc .
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Polybun
Posted 2015-12-07 8:36 PM (#497250 - in reply to #497055)
Subject: Re: Torqueflight problem?



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putting it in neutral doesn't disengage the output shaft.... just saying
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jimntempe
Posted 2015-12-08 6:52 PM (#497359 - in reply to #497055)
Subject: Re: Torqueflight problem?



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Played with it again today. CHecked all the wheels and all turned very easily, no evidence at all of the brakes on the wheels binding. Moving the car up and down the driveway produced the binding feeling pretty much constantly. So I jacked it up so I could get under it and backed off the adjustment for the parking brake about 3 or 4 clicks. THat has eliminated the binding feeling as far as feeling anything really definate. Sometimes it sort of feels like maybe it's trying to bind but at this point I"m watching for it and could be imagining it, or perhaps it's still doing it just barely. I hate to back off the Pbrake anymore then I have as it has enough holding power with this adjustment for normal parking lots. Based on loosening the Pbrake adjustment pretty much eliminating the binding I'm tentatively concluding it's not something in the transmission.
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ttotired
Posted 2015-12-08 7:26 PM (#497366 - in reply to #497055)
Subject: Re: Torqueflight problem?



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Have you had the car jacked up (on stands, of coarse) so the rear wheels can turn and put it in gear to listen?

You should be able to hear scraping or grinding noises from somewhere

If its internal to the trans, you should be able to see debris in the oil, same if its in the differential, but a good listen is the first thing to do to isolate where you need to look

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jimntempe
Posted 2015-12-08 7:35 PM (#497367 - in reply to #497055)
Subject: Re: Torqueflight problem?



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I did have it up and tried it in gear a couple days ago and it did the binding thing but there has never been any of what I could call the expected scraping noises I'd expect to hear from dragging brakes. The trans oil is like new on the dipstick. I heard some noise today when going VERY slow while coasting to a stop to see if it would do it's binding thing, it sounded like a click in the rear, sort of like a hubcap noise more than anything. Right now if I didn't know about it's recent binding behaviour I would not think there was anything going on, it drives like "normal" for a 55 year old survivor now that the Pbrake has been backed off.
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1957sotos
Posted 2015-12-08 9:32 PM (#497384 - in reply to #497055)
Subject: RE: Torqueflight problem?


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Has the rear brake hose been replaced? I've had these act like a check valve and won't
release the brakes quickly.
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jimntempe
Posted 2016-01-28 8:12 PM (#502616 - in reply to #497055)
Subject: Re: Torqueflight problem?



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I thought I would close out this thread. I believe I have fixed the problem. I believe the problem was mainly caused by the "cyclobond" Chrysler used to make the brake linings 50 years ago deteriorating. WHen I took the parking brake apart a couple months ago there did not appear to be any oil leaking on to anything inside the parking brake. But the shoes did have a greasiness to them so I sprayed the hell out of them with non-chlorinated brake cleaner spray. THen buttoned it all back up. For the first week or so it seemed like it was fixed but then the binding came back worse then ever.

So a couple days ago I took it all apart again and put new shoes on it. What I found was that there was again a weird greasy gummy coating that was very sticky making the shoes stick to the drum PLUS the little ears on the shoes that "float" it against the backing plate had worn grooves into the backing plate making it stick in position somewhat. I think the brake cleaner made the deteriorating cyclobond stuff migrate out even more and create the sticky gunk on the surface. I ground the worn groove areas smooth again, greased them with silicone grease and put the new shoes on. Now it seems fine although I think I need to give it one more adjusting "click" to get a little better "tightness" when the p brake is applied. It's not too hard to make the car move in gear with the parking brake on if you give it a little gas.



(old parking brake parts IMG_2324 s.jpg)



(old parking brake parts IMG_2328 s.jpg)



(old and new shoes parking brake IMG_2331 s.jpg)



(new shoes installed IMG_2337 s.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments old parking brake parts IMG_2324 s.jpg (193KB - 159 downloads)
Attachments old parking brake parts IMG_2328 s.jpg (147KB - 187 downloads)
Attachments old and new shoes parking brake IMG_2331 s.jpg (231KB - 156 downloads)
Attachments new shoes installed IMG_2337 s.jpg (162KB - 189 downloads)
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