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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 468
 
Location: Cushing, Wisconsin | So the 354 poly in my 57 chrysler is getting pretty weak. I am a big fan of the new gen hemi in the forward look cars but don't have the time, fab skills nor the money to do that...But have been thinking I should replace my 354 with a 408 stroker. I do have a couple questions... Since it's a small block LA mopar will it drop right in my 57 chrysler? If not what do I need? Different engine mounts? Different accessories? Certain type or size oil pan? Any help is appreciated thank you guys in advance!! |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 9649
  
Location: So. Cal | The LA motor is narrower at the mounts so you will need to fab or modify the original mounts to get it to mount in there. You will need the accessory brackets from the newer car of course and a front/mid sump oil pan, which is very common during the 60's, 70's. You will also need a different, newer transmission to mate to it as there are no stroker cranks built with the extended flange, and no conversions available that I know of for putting a newer motor in front of an older trans.
But the real question is why?? The 354 is a really neat motor and quite powerful for it's size. If you want even more power out of it, you can convert it to a hemi without too much trouble (but must change pistons), or even stroke it. To stroke it, just take a 392 crank and grind the main journals down to the 354 size and offset-grind the rods to big block Chevy rods. By doing this you should be able to get around 4.10 stroke for your 354, which will bring a .03 over 354 motor to 406 cubic inches. I have a crank like this that I am planning to use. And you can run your original motor with free flowing hemi heads (even aluminum ones if you want more power and less weight) at about the same displacement as your LA stroker. But I guarantee that the 354 poly/hemi stroker will make more power than your LA stroker and will look a lot better doing it without having to fab or modify anything. It really is better in all respects except for one thing - price. The 354 will cost more. But if you include the price for all the modifications required & purchasing all the extra parts, I seriously doubt it really would end up being more expensive - especially if you decide to re-use the poly heads. If you do that, it should be quite a bit cheaper than your proposed conversion.
And finally, your car will be worth so much more by stroking the 354 instead. If you decide to sell your car someday, a small block LA motor in there will destroy its value. By all means, do what you like with your car, but be aware of the possible consequences for the future. There is a company in the Los Angeles area that you can pay to put together all the 354 stroker parts for you if you are not comfortable doing it yourself. Let me know if you would like their info. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 468
Location: Cushing, Wisconsin | Why is the cost...and the car will NEVER be for sale, it's already going to my daughter when she's of age and responsible enough. Btw she's only 6 now. I'll keep the 354 forever no matter what happens. Plus I remember someone on here stroking their own poly...didn't go that well. The conversion from poly to hemi is really expensive, I'd have to spend $1,000 to $1,500 just to get the heads, pistons, pushrods and everything else to convert to hemi not including the cost to rebuild it...have you seen the cost of rebuilding one of these engines? Honestly I'd love to keep it 354 powered but right now that thing is a boat anchor...and I don't want to spend $5k plus to rebuild it to be a shiny new still low hp boat anchor. (Although a 354 stroker has piqued my interest!!!!! Going to look into that.) But that being said, changing all the accessories, trans, fab new motor mounts etc is the last thing I wanted to do so I guess the old boat anchor will have to do forever. Although it would be such a better cruiser some day for my daughter if I were to put a newer OD trans and had a bit more hp on tap. IMO 354 is one of the coolest engines produced and not very many of them left since they were only produced for 2 or 3 years, cooler than the hemi, sure not as aesthetically pleasing but makes just about as much power and you just don't see them anymore, plenty of LA & hemi engines out there still. I would like their info on the 354 stroker. Thank You!! |
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Expert
Posts: 1506
Location: Colo Spgs | Hola Justin
Forget about any "WoW Factor" of having Hemi Heads. The Heads that you now have - have the same power of what you need.
Only do as hinted to achieve what happens when you put The 392 Crank into The 354 block.
If you truly want to be practicable - repair properly what you have and then "Drive On".
Rodger & Gabby
COS |
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Expert
Posts: 3033
Location: N.W. Fla. | A 354 in good shape isn't a boat anchor, but it's a bit small for a land yacht like a '57 Chr. To really go you'd need a 440 or similar BB. You can use a 392 tranny adaptor to put a modern tranny behind the 354/408. I like the adaptor that "Wayfarer" here in the Board makes.
Edited by Mopar1 2016-07-04 7:25 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1506
Location: Colo Spgs | Hola Justin
In 1956 the 354 was "the engine" in every Imperial Division car and Senior Chrysler's. Look at what it performed at with a 8.5:1 compression Ratio.
You have 10:1 .
Rodger & Gabby
COS |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 9649
Location: So. Cal | So it sounds like you are cost sensitive. In that case, keep the poly heads and rebuild the 354. Your words about it being a boat anchor are really unfair. These motors are much better than an LA of the same displacement. The 354 in my '57 Windsor hasn't been rebuilt, but feels very strong. Plenty of power to have fun with and stronger than the 361 motor in my '58 Desoto. The other '57 Windsor I own is really gutless because it just isn't running well. There seems to be issues with the lifters/cam in it. It shouldn't cost you anywhere near $5k to just rebuild the motor. $2-2.5k is more like the right number depending on what you want to put into it. A stroker will, of course cost you more as it always does. The company that I mentioned before is called Willys Replacement Parts. Here is a link:
http://www.willysreplacementparts.com/1951_58chryslerhemiparts.html
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 468
Location: Cushing, Wisconsin | Agreed it's unfair, they're not boat anchors, 25-30 years ago that thing would get up and scream...with the 2 bl carb no less. I must need mine rebuilt, If I had to guess it's really weak because the cam is probably wiped and lifters are very worn besides everything else that wears out over time like the valves, bearings, push rods, rings, pistons, valve seats, valve guides, etc. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 468
Location: Cushing, Wisconsin | Thanks for the link but I can't use most of that stuff except the stroker cranks. Poly has different pistons, valve assemblies, push rods etc. than the hemi. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 468
Location: Cushing, Wisconsin | I did find this though. https://egge.com/kit/cr354m57/
Does anyone know of the quality of the parts from Egge? That price on the engine rebuild kit isn't too bad, wondering if I should order everything except the $914 rocker assembly?? Maybe I can have mine rebuilt for a fraction or even half that cost would be great! |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 9649
Location: So. Cal | I wouldn't buy a '57 kit, get '58 pistons instead as they bumped the compression up to 10:1 in '58. Wedge motors can have issues with this much compression, hemi motors can handle it with ease, but I'm not sure about the hemi-based poly. I imagine they are somewhere in-between, but probably handle it a lot better than a typical wedge. My '58 361 has 10:1, and it does fine on Premium as well as mid-grade if not pushing it too hard. My 392 hemi ran 10.2:1 on regular, no problem.
Also, I definitely wouldn't buy this kit. Why are they charging you twice for 2 timing sets and way too much for it too? Most of the stuff on that list could be obtained a lot cheaper, with better quality parts through hot heads. You could just use your old push rods too if they are in good shape so that seems like a waste of money, and these are overpriced to boot. Just clean up and refurbish your old rockers at a local shop - if necessary. Most of the time it isn't even required if they aren't galled on the ends and the bushings are in good shape. Whatever they are selling here for the rockers certainly isn't worth $915. You may not need to replace the intake valves, but it is generally a good idea to replace the exhaust. If you would like to increase the valve size or spring tension to run a hotter cam, talk to hot heads and see if they have anything that is compatible with the poly. I bet that they do, in fact, there is a good chance that a lot of the valve train is interchangeable. In short, no, I wouldn't even consider purchasing that kit. It also doesn't even include a lot of stuff that you will actually need like the oil bypass plug and an oil filter conversion. Hot Heads should be able to help you out with most of what you need, but the only exception may be the pistons that are specific to the poly. |
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Expert
Posts: 3033
Location: N.W. Fla. | Hemi heads are better flowing & would handle the increase in CID better, plus they're less prone to detonation than the Poly heads. I'd do the spin on oil filter conversion, the HH OEM up angle one is a snap vs the cartridge filter. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 468
Location: Cushing, Wisconsin | I'm not interested in changing to a hemi |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 468
Location: Cushing, Wisconsin | Those heads aren't cheap. I don't have a set of them laying around plus they're not worth it just for aesthetics. The poly is within 20hp of the hemi of the same cubic inch engine. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 888
Location: Peoples Republic of Oregon | OK, you have no interest in changing to a Hemi configuration and as you note the Spitfire is very close to the Hemi in HP (and TQ).
The quality of the parts you buy and the quality of the machine operations will determine the power output of the engine. If you skimp on the parts your results will show it. If you take the time to look at the list of parts for the LA stroker you will see a lot of high(er) rpm pieces. I get the impression that you want a reliable cruiser.
Allow me to offer some random thoughts:
Change to forged pistons. They are not a great deal more than the castings that Egge sells and last I heard the Egge pistons were not actually making the c/r advertised. Same goes for Kanter and FalconGlobal and the rest of the cast piston crew.
As mentioned, a 392 crank can be cut down but this will be a very expensive 50 cubic inches. Expect to pay around $1k for the crank and who knows how much for the machine work. This has to be done right!
Yes, Egge demands waaay too much for rebuilt rocker assemblies. We only charge $350 to rebuild the single rocker shafts assemblies. Inspect your shafts to see if the shaft is galled, egg-shaped or has a step worn at the edge of where the rocker rides. These require fixing, and these also will indicate the same wear to the rocker arm in addition to possible pushrod cup wear. Be sure to thoroughly clean everything in-on-around the shaft/rocker arms. There are some small oil feed holes that are easily plugged.
New cam cores are available from several of the cam companies and you can buy direct if you want a particular profile. If you compare the cost of regrinding your cam and adding adjustable pushrods you may be saving money over the cost of a new cam and you then have the opportunity to fine tune the lifter pre-load. The other option is to convert your rocker arms to adjusters during the rebuild and use the stock pushrods.
If everything is in oem configuration then you might be ok with re-using the stock pushrods but you really need to actually measure the amount of lifter pre-load if you don't have some sort of adjustment available. The usual range is 0.040" to 0.060".
Change to a 4-bbl intake manifold. If you don't like the price of the alum piece then you can modify an iron unit for much improved performance. We stock modified intakes if you don't have a core to start with. This allows for a modern carb if you choose or perhaps a EFI unit which will be a good thing for a younger driver.
Rebuilding your 354 will not be as cheap as doing a 318 or a 440 but certainly less expensive than swapping in an LA and then spending thousands on making it fit/work. The engine parts are more expensive simply do to the laws of economics.
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Member
Posts: 43
Location: temperance, MI | The most important advice I can offer you either way you decide to go, don't skimp on money for parts, if the old engine still runs, take care of it and accumulate parts while driving with the old setup. Expensive parts that you buy from reputable manufacturing companies can still be off, it comes with anything that's mass-produced, but the quality from your more reputable company typically has better quality control. Parts manufactured overseas can be decent for one run but can be inconsistent on the next run of parts. Don't cheap out, if you are saving a large amount of money on something, especially pieces that move at high rates of speed with alot of mass, it could end up costing you way more than the better or best part was to begin with.
La engines are nice because their fairly compact so there shouldn't be an issue with fit, it's just gonna be alot of stuff to change out and some things to modify. Just depends on your skill set and what your willing to learn or take a shot a doing. 408s are pretty sweet and a quite few companies offer rotating assemblies but by the time you figure in machiing, balancing, and buy the newer stuff to use it, your prob gonna spend alot of cash. The heads on the older la stuff flows decent, but the poly heads paved the way for the canted valve head, newer magnum heads flow well but the poly look sweet and you already have them. Bonus
It seems like the only "good" way to save alot of loot when building any engine is knowing someone who can get you a hookup or knowing a machinist that works for food and beer.
Best to do it right the first time-Joe
Edited by 61sene 2016-07-11 6:03 PM
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 9649
Location: So. Cal | Another piece of advice along the same lines: One of my '57 Chryslers is pretty gutless because of a cam/lifter issue. Sounds like a similar problem on yours. But the rings & compression seem pretty good. So I am just going to replace the cam, timing set & lifters on it, and then rebuild the heads to get compatible spring pressures for the new cam. That's it. I'm going to leave the bottom end alone. Going this route would save you a lot of money if your bottom end is still in decent shape. |
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Member
Posts: 43
Location: temperance, MI | Maybe start were power flight suggest, comp test, + a leak down on a problem cylinder if you have one. New cam, and lifters may be just what the doc ordered.
Maybe upgrade to a solid state ignition too if you haven't yet, but that's the first move alot of people make-Joe |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 468
Location: Cushing, Wisconsin | Wayfarer thanks for all the input, very well put! I already have a stock 57-58 4bl intake on it and running a carter afb from a 62 chrysler. I may try what Powerflite suggested and just swap the cam, lifters and timing set then do the heads. Worst case scenario I'll rebuild what I have and be a step ahead with the heads, lifters, timing set and cam ready to go. |
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Veteran
Posts: 130
Location: Central NJ | I did 408 Stroker in a 56 Dodge. I was able to use aftermarket MOPAR hot rod mounts. Id have to see what the 57 mounts looked like. There were horizontal tabs on the chassis and the mount was a steel Triangular wedge with rubber donut isolators between the mount and the tab on the frame.
The Stroker is a good way to build an LA.
I can find pics if you need but I dont know how much carries over to the 57.
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408 Stroker?
