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Location: Ramona, CA | With the help of fellow member Wayne Graefen (StillOutThere) I've been working on the section of my 300F.com web site covering the 400hp 300F cars.
http://300f.com/300f_special.htm
There is also a page on what it would take to build a 4-speed 300F.
http://300f.com/4speed.htm
I'm still working on getting permission to add more historical photos and the pages will keep evolving as more information comes to light and more feedback comes in.
Edited by NicksGarage 2016-07-25 11:24 PM
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Location: North Australia | Awesome cars. I saw a couple in the flesh at Carlisle last year.
Steve.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieF8JS1xrEk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDyJIUwnLr8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9rHA-1BiCQ
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Hey Nick,
Your page looks great!
Josh |
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Posts: 375
Location: milano, italy | Don Petty in Phoenix, AZ, has a conv four speed |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Ontario, Canada | Hey Nick, just stay with Wayne and all will be fine!!
Greg |
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Location: Under the X in Texas | antonellomopar - 2016-07-27 1:00 AM Don Petty in Phoenix, AZ, has a conv four speed The Petty black F convertible has ZERO documentation and ZERO history. It is a clone. Just be glad no one bought it right after he created it and was offering the car for ONE MILLION DOLLARS. I saw the car in his sheds while it was still (40+ years after the factory) stock 375HP and torqueflite. Enough said? |
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Location: The Mile High City | ZING! Neat website. I enjoyed reading the text and seeing pictures of Wayne's car. Those GTs are really unique and mysterious! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 375
Location: milano, italy | Wayne....enough said....
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Location: Ramona, CA | Thanks for the comments on the site. I've had it out there since 1999, which is an eternity in the Internet world. Wayne gave me a lot of the Special GT information a while back but I've been busy working on other projects. There was another site that had information on them but it has now gone down and wasn't completely accurate. I guess having my own 300F again has encouraged me to work on the site more again. |
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Location: Houston | That is a nice site, lots of good pictures and discussion.
It kinda occurs to me as I peer at the 413 Long Ram, with AC, that is might be the grandfather of the 'basket of snakes' look that overtook engine compartments by the mid 70's. Lots of wires and hoses and tubes going every direction. Oh well.
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Location: Under the X in Texas | Comments appreciated, y'all.
I might add that Petty does have one of the four existing REAL 300F Spl GT cars. It is a white coupe that was in fact one of the six record setting cars on Daytona sand in '60. Historical documentation on that car. So he has one real (white coupe) and one clone (black 'vert).
And in case the news didn't travel to all corners, I did sell the Black GT coupe I had two years ago. |
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Location: Northen Virginia | My friend John in Canada just found 2 yes (two) 300G. Rare find for Canada. |
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Location: California/Wisconsin | I thought this thread might like seeing a 1960 Press Introduction Kit for the 300 F. It features several pictures with the 4-speed transmission and was a package for the Auto Editor. I don't know if these are rare kits or not. Some of the pictures are in the sites listed above.
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IMG_0331 (Small).JPG (51KB - 137 downloads)
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Location: Ramona, CA | It took me a long time to get a press kit and now I have a complete one and a partial one. http://300f.com/media_press2_01.htm
Interesting item in there is the overhead shot of a convertible with apparently a 4-speed. I've had arguments over this photo with a few people who claim that this proves that there is a second 4-speed convertible. If you look at the link I've provided here, you can see high res scans of the photo and it shows that it is a 4-speed shifter handle stuck in the ashtray. Still has the pushbuttons for the auto trans and no clutch pedal.
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Posts: 2519
Location: central Illinois | The lead photo in this thread with the black 300F 4 speed, Illinois plate from 1960 "190 060" is the one my father in law owned. I pulled and replaced the car cover on it many times but never got to ride in it. |
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| Greg --
I chatted with your father-in-law and he was quite a character indeed. He told me that he actually drove the car to Reno(?) once. Do you know how many miles it had on it when he still owned it?
Joe |
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Location: central Illinois | Best I can recall it was around 10,000 miles. |
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Location: Under the X in Texas | The Ziegler. McAtee. Tarantolo auctioned car was under 11.250 miles for decades and despite numerous times on/off trailers and around auctions, is likely still under 11,300 miles. I met Bob McAtee at his home for extended discussion shortly after buying my later-produced F Spl GT, and to see the rest of his collection and quite a group of cars it was with the Daytona Beach record setter as its focus point. Bob really knew his cars and was at one time a Chrysler dealer.
I'm certain that car was never driven to Reno. The car I owned was originally sold in Reno to its nearby Fallon, NV owner. |
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Location: North Australia | Is this that car? Steve
http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/chrysler/300f/184... |
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Location: Under the X in Texas | <p>As stated that is the Ziegler Daytona record setting car. I did not recall reading that the car was "EXHIBITED" at Tahoe in 1977. It would have been taken there in an enclosed trailer. First I had heard it was once again being auctioned, this by its latest owner. It is curious that instead of a estimated price RANGE, it is promoted with a singular estimated figure. The promotional text is one of the best I've read for auction of one of these cars.That said, it is incredible, INCREDIBLE that the main features of the car, the engine and the four speed were not included in photographs!!!</p><p>Thanks for posting the link 60 IMP.</p>
Edited by StillOutThere 2016-07-31 9:04 PM
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Posts: 1287
| Steve and Wayne --
Thanks for the info. Sorry about me thinking that Mr. McAtee said he drove it out to Nevada; I talked to him just by phone and since I can screw up a two-car funeral, I probably completely misunderstood him.
Do you happen to know what the ad means by "experimental cylinder heads"? Was this something other than the rather routine "porting and polishing"?
Great info and thanks again.
Joe |
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Location: Under the X in Texas | <p>From 'attended' a meet to 'was driven' to a meet is a very short distance. The fact that the mileage did not change appreciably cements how it got there. Slightly oversize valves in the GT cylinder heads. Without looking up the dimensions, valve sizes were increased to what the 300J and 300K would have in production by '63-64.</p>
Edited by StillOutThere 2016-08-01 10:04 AM
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Location: Ramona, CA | StillOutThere - 2016-08-01 6:44 AM
From 'attended' a meet to 'was driven' to a meet is a very short distance. The fact that the mileage did not change appreciably cements how it got there. Slightly oversize valves in the GT cylinder heads. Without looking up the dimensions, valve sizes were increased to what the 300J and 300K would have in production by '63-64.
Another thing to add to the list of special parts on my page.
I have this document on my site which lists the different specs between the two engines. Seems to be very complete. http://300f.com/media/ama_specs.pdf
Edited by NicksGarage 2016-08-01 11:43 AM
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Location: Parts Unknown | NicksGarage - 2016-07-30 4:52 PM
Interesting item in there is the overhead shot of a convertible with apparently a 4-speed. I've had arguments over this photo with a few people who claim that this proves that there is a second 4-speed convertible. If you look at the link I've provided here, you can see high res scans of the photo and it shows that it is a 4-speed shifter handle stuck in the ashtray. Still has the pushbuttons for the auto trans and no clutch pedal.
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While no documentation has been found to date to prove this, the photographic
evidence suggests only one convertible F was built with the 4-speed ashtray. The
era was known for its fast smokers ! 
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Location: Ramona, CA | StillOutThere - 2016-07-31 5:13 PM
It is curious that instead of a estimated price RANGE, it is promoted with a singular estimated figure.
On the auction site, they have a range of 250,000-325,000
http://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1960-chrysler-300-f-gt-special-2/ |
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Location: Under the X in Texas | Chrysler 300 Int'l's documentarian Gil Cunningham was a Chrysler Engineer in, as I recall, the late '70s. He would tell you that he found the person in the photo department who did the alteration work on that photo. In fact, the placement faux stick lever is coming out of the ash tray location in the photo. The actual 4-speed car shifter location was about four inches rearward and had a distinctive large square aluminum frame around the leather boot for the lever.
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Location: Ramona, CA | This shows the larger exhaust valve size and also the cam specs.
Edited by NicksGarage 2016-08-01 12:07 PM
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Location: Ramona, CA | Here's a link to a video of the car being sold by Gooding & Company in Florida in 2013 - https://youtu.be/iDyJIUwnLr8?list=PLaKQtDii2POjHizPEuu3V7dfMw2LMpYz3 |
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Location: Houston | It's just me...but I could do without the Sharpie marker signature on the glovebox door..... |
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Location: Under the X in Texas | The video is the previous sale three years ago of course.
Regards the signed glove box: Carroll Shelby signed perhaps a couple of thousand glove boxes with some being original Cobras and all the rest being kit cars but has passed away, there are no more, but all added value. This is Greg Ziegler's signature and he only did this ONCE and he is also gone and this certainly adds value to this car. |
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I love this car. It's one of my favorites, and I don't have many. I hope this car doesn't get flipped every few years like the automotive investment buyers often do with higher end cars. I hope it gets a good owner. I think it's a $200-$250K car and I hope they get even more for it!
If this car is a $250K car, imagine what the Henry Ford 300B should be worth?
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Location: Under the X in Texas | So far, the only people making money off this car in the last fifty six years have been the auction companies between consignment fees, gate receipts and sales commission.
The Kiekhaefer genuine 300B race car at the Henry Ford was modified for safety and reliability to comply with recent vintage racing rules which significantly affected its historical authenticity and value. |
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Location: Houston | It might add $$ value but nonetheless it's not original and not attractive. IMO. |
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Location: Under the X in Texas | GregCon - 2016-08-01 3:04 PM It might add $$ value but nonetheless it's not original and not attractive. IMO. Burton Bouwkamp, chief factory engineer on the Gran Turismo project signed the air cleaner lid on the F Special I owned.
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Hey Wayne,
Funny how that auction thing works huh? Almost like the system is rigged? Haha! |
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Posts: 1223
Location: Ramona, CA | Andy Mikonis sent me this picture of Greg Ziegler signing the intake and dash.
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Location: Ramona, CA | And this one of one of the trophies Mr. Ziegler got in Daytona. His trophies were donated to the Elgin History Museum in 2014.
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Location: Under the X in Texas | Auction companies offer a service for a fee. The collector car market has segments that go up and down over time based on dozens of factors. Any investment has risk to certainly include cars and the costs of ownership and restoration that must be factored in to the wider economic picture. All collector cars took a huge hit on value in 1998 with years to recover. And another hit during the longest recession the US has seen since World War II which is not yet resolved. I don't see anything that is rigged in the car hobby. I do see hobbyists that don't do adequate research, that don't "count the costs".
Over the 23 year ownership of my 300F Spl GT I ended up making some money. During those years I dug information out until it was the most highly dorumented of the four existing Gran Turismo 300Fs. This isn't the forum for relating the story of a '55 Jaguar XK 140 MC OTS that I was thrilled to buy from the Los Angeles hills and even happier to sell at significant loss back in '98 when values were crashing into the gutter. The car hobby can be a great roller coaster ride: buy a ticket. |
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So what is the history of Don Petty's White 300F GT coupe? Was it raced? |
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Location: Under the X in Texas | Hyfire - 2016-08-01 6:10 PM So what is the history of Don Petty's White 300F GT coupe? Was it raced? Petty's car was one of the six qualified race car's at Daytona Speed Week. And thus one of the six fastest stock cars ever to run on Daytona. Car came through the Truitt-Payne Chrysler store in Birmingham, AL. First owned by Dan Dice. Next by Bob Wilkins of Lake Placid, NY who advertised the car in the 300 Club newsletter in '85 at which time Don P. made a part cash, part car trade to get the car. Before anyone asks, there were two of the GT race cars thought to have been destroyed in wrecks when they were relatively new. And the factory test mule GT, which was disqualified at Daytona, was sold to a private party in Southern California, modified and generally abused over time, and was disassembled for parts. That leaves two missing Daytona race cars. There are, to my knowledge over the last 25+ years, no credible rumors that either exists. But that doesn't void the idea they may be STILL OUT THERE. |
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Posts: 1287
| Wayne --
Nuther question (or two), please. What is the official name for the 300F with the 400 horse engine and the Pont-a-Mousson 4-speed? Were the cars raced at Daytona given still a different designation? In my ignorance, I've always just referred to any and all of those cars, coupes and convertibles alike, as "300F Specials."
I've also wondered about the strength of those 4-speeds and their clutch assemblies behind those monster Special 413s. My '65 Sport Fury with the decidedly less powerful 426S (365 HP "Street Wedge") did very well with its 11" clutch, but my '67 R/T 375/440's, only a tad bigger, was a bit too strong for its smaller 10 1/2" clutch as we shattered two (I did one and my wife did another).
Also, from what I've read, I guess that Pont-a-Mousson shift linkage was as bad, or even worse, than that Inland Steel piece of spaghetti on the R/T.
Thanks,
Joe |
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Location: Houston | I recall reading in a publication of the early 70's that the Pont gearbox was 'problematic'. I think it was generally not strong enough though maybe it had shifting issues as well. Plus, you can be sure that in 1960 anything coming out of France was a pain to get a hold of. It's not like today where everything comes from halfway around the world.
I've been to Pont-a-Mousson, or rather driven by it, and it is a town that is sort of the center of gearbox manufacture for all of France. They made lots of gearboxes of all sorts....not so sure how much they do there anymore.
Of course, for a pure high speed run attempt, how the trans shifted really wouldn't matter as long as it could make it to top gear.
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Location: Under the X in Texas | For decades we knew no other name other than to call them "Specials" as there was no designation verbalized or in factory literature. "Special" has long been in use in the auto industry for individual and very brief runs of limited equipment cars. Then Jim Bartuska of 300 Int'l was given a group of hand written papers from a former Chrysler engineer with the title page stating this was about the 1960 Gran Turismo project. The "300F Special" name having been in use for years, to avoid confusion, the Gran Turismo tag was added to it by hobbyists including me. History should remember them henceforth as cars of the Gran Turismo project, or simply "300F GT" cars. Burt Bouwkamp calls
them Gran Turismos and states the "Special" moniker was never applied originally.
The second series Pont-a-Mousson in these cars is nearly bullet proof. The earliest of the Type II P-a-M has a two piece cluster gear which would develop with wear a bit of flex and could be broken. Later builds had a one piece cluster. The rest of the box is about indestructible. It is somewhat "notchy" to shift. This is a road race transmission from Europe, NOT a drag race box. It can not be snap shifted.
The P-a-M shift linkage is direct lever to top rail type very similar to a Jaguar. At over 100K miles mine had some wear on the end of the stick but was hard welded and reshaped. No problem. If there is any "problem" it is that these transmission mating surfaces are difficult to seal and the output shaft seal does not stand up to the torque being constantly thrown at it.
In my car the clutch was ready to give out when I purchased it. The flywheel was badly heat checked. I had a new flywheel machined and re-used the ring gear. The original clutch required very high foot pressure and I changed to a diaphragm type for drivability. For the same reason, I changed the differential from 2.93 Sure Grip to 3.31 Sure Grip which is listed as factory equipment on the GT owner's manual insert specifications.
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Location: Under the X in Texas | I have no personal experience with the Series I or Series III P-a-M boxes. I too have heard that the Series I was underengineered. The II arrived for the 354-equipped Facel Vega cars and thus was built to receive torque. When the 413 wedge came along it was ready. The III box was for the 4 cylinder Facelia sport cars and is entirely different. The P-a-M corporation closed its doors in 1966. So over the course of ownership of my 300F GT I purchased two complete Series II boxes (sourced from Facel Vega cars) which went with the car when sold. |
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Location: Under the X in Texas | The city name Pont-a-Mousson (France) translates as "bridge monsoon" (weather event). It is on the Moselle River.
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Location: Houston | I don't get the statement that the 'output shaft seal could not handle the torque thrown at it'.
Seals don't handle any torque..do they? |
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Posts: 1287
| The Letter Cars were, and still are, magnificent automobiles but unfortunately came to fore just as the demographics of the automotive world were changing. While Rodger talked about the F being designed for "the sportsman," punk kids such as me were starting to get the car bug. Letter Cars were widely and respectfully regarded as the "banker's hot rod," but bankers didn't drag Main on Friday and Saturday nights and after NASCAR and Ford effectively legislated them off the tracks. they weren't seen there either. Even college boys could work at high-paying summer jobs or part-time year-round jobs could earn money not only to pay tuition, but also to buy a car. However, while power did appeal to some and luxury to others, very few wanted both and even fewer considered themselves "sportsmen." Hence the new waves hitting the shores of Detroit were the Muscle and Pony cars or true sportcars which offered flash and dash without the heavy price.
Too bad, because the Fs in particular offered everything, but at a prohibitive price for the market then.
Joe |
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Location: Houston | Some excerpts from Petersen's excellent Mopar book...
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Location: Houston | Sorry they are tipped...they looked normal on my screen lol
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Location: Under the X in Texas | GregCon - 2016-08-02 2:50 PM I don't get the statement that the 'output shaft seal could not handle the torque thrown at it'. Seals don't handle any torque..do they? Yes of course the bearings "handle" the torque but every bearing is engineered with play so that oil /grease can get to its surfaces. Torque "on" will kick against one side of the bearing and thus the seal and torque "off" sends it to the other side. As the bearing wears and the lube breaks down this measure increases with the seal meanwhile aging from wear and heat. |
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1960 Chrysler 300F Specials
