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Help removing Torqueflite
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Chrome58
Posted 2016-10-09 1:32 PM (#522975)
Subject: Help removing Torqueflite



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Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels		Okay, I jacked up the car 20 inches off the ground, supported by 2 sets of jack stands and concrete blocks to be on the safe side.
The torque tube has been removed, as well as the crossmember. All cables have been disconnected.
An additional jack stand supports the motor and transmission (at the parking brake extension).

Now I want to remove the four bolts between the transmission and the converter housing.
The 2 lower ones seems to be accessible, but how to access the 2 upper ones ???

All the FSM says is : "Remove the 2 transmission case to torque converter housing screws and lockwashers from right side and install guide studs, Tool C-3276. With transmission supported, remove the 2 transmission case to torque converter housing screws and lockwashers from left side. Slide transmission straight back to avoid damage to the front oil pump driving sleeve, then lower to the floor".

I'm thinking maybe I have to lower the engine and transmission a couple inches to have a better access to those 2 upper bolts.
Is that the way to do it ?

Thanks.



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wizard
Posted 2016-10-09 2:06 PM (#522976 - in reply to #522975)
Subject: Re: Help removing Torqueflite



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Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island		Vincent, you must lower the engine a little - see Dieters thread - he's actually working with the same task right now.

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=56448&... (scroll to the last post)


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Chrome58
Posted 2016-10-09 2:47 PM (#522979 - in reply to #522976)
Subject: Re: Help removing Torqueflite



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Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels		Thank you for the link, Sven, but I have not found info about lowering the engine in Dieter's thread.

However, I have found info in the FSM saying that you can lower up to 3 inches max ...
But what about the exhaust pipes ?

Edited by Chrome58 2016-10-09 2:49 PM
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wizard
Posted 2016-10-09 3:13 PM (#522980 - in reply to #522975)
Subject: Re: Help removing Torqueflite



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Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island		You must work with feeling here Vincent - lower the engine and check when it stops - jack up just slightly from this position so that the Engine doesn't hang in the exhaust pipes.
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Powerflite
Posted 2016-10-09 5:13 PM (#522988 - in reply to #522980)
Subject: Re: Help removing Torqueflite



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Location: So. Cal		You will likely have to disconnect the exhaust in order to lower the motor unless you can disconnect it at the mufflers.
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60 dart
Posted 2016-10-09 5:58 PM (#522996 - in reply to #522975)
Subject: Re: Help removing Torqueflite



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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA		one of the first things i remember my dad saying to me about working cars is to NEVER EVER BLOCK UP A CAR WITH CONCRETE/CINDER BLOCKS -----------------------------------------------------later
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b5rt
Posted 2016-10-09 7:13 PM (#523000 - in reply to #522996)
Subject: Re: Help removing Torqueflite



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60 dart - 2016-10-09 4:58 PM

one of the first things i remember my dad saying to me about working cars is to NEVER EVER BLOCK UP A CAR WITH CONCRETE/CINDER BLOCKS -----------------------------------------------------later


You got that right! They can crumble. Be better off with a big block of wood or tree stump.
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Chrome58
Posted 2016-10-10 2:36 AM (#523023 - in reply to #523000)
Subject: Re: Help removing Torqueflite



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Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels
b5rt - 2016-10-10 1:13 AM

60 dart - 2016-10-09 4:58 PM

one of the first things i remember my dad saying to me about working cars is to NEVER EVER BLOCK UP A CAR WITH CONCRETE/CINDER BLOCKS -----------------------------------------------------later


You got that right! They can crumble. Be better off with a big block of wood or tree stump.

Thanks for your concern, but the concrete blocks are there as a safety, as the car does rest on four 6-ton jack stands.
And, as a matter of fact, there are blocks of wood between the concrete blocks and the chassis.
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Joe Mac
Posted 2016-10-10 9:03 PM (#523104 - in reply to #522975)
Subject: Re: Help removing Torqueflite



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Location: Fairfield County, CT		Assuming the car has dual exhaust; unbolting the head pipes at the manifiolds and the hangers after the mufflers is not that hard and will make your reinstall much easier. Just my 2 cents. Good luck.
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60 Imp
Posted 2016-10-11 7:40 AM (#523173 - in reply to #522975)
Subject: RE: Help removing Torqueflite


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Location: North Australia		Oh yeah, don't forget it will be F#%&ing heavy!

You might consider making up a scrap metal cradle to fit the box (at its center of gravity) to help the re-install. Welded to your trolley jack makes a handy tool.

Steve.
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1960fury
Posted 2016-10-11 2:39 PM (#523200 - in reply to #523173)
Subject: RE: Help removing Torqueflite



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Location: northern germany		i weighed one (just the box w/o bellhousing/converter) iirc it was 100 or 105kg!!!
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Powerflite
Posted 2016-10-11 3:00 PM (#523206 - in reply to #523200)
Subject: RE: Help removing Torqueflite



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Location: So. Cal		Translation: 220 to 230 lbs.
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Phatton
Posted 2016-10-16 9:39 AM (#523539 - in reply to #522975)
Subject: Re: Help removing Torqueflite


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Location: Camptown PA		I suggest that you remove the exhaust pipes from the exhaust manifold on back. This gives a lot more space underneath and will make removing and installing the trans much easier. You can usually access the upper bolts trans bolts from underneath the car using a long extension and universal swivel - you may have to lower your block under the parking block extension a little. Use a trans jack,or do as 60 IMP suggests and make a cradle that fits on your floor jack and trans. I've made most of my cradles out wood 2x6's. An alternative is to remove the trans and bell housing as a complete unit - the bolts are easier to access,but you're dealing with more weight.
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Chrome58
Posted 2016-10-16 12:45 PM (#523560 - in reply to #523539)
Subject: Re: Help removing Torqueflite



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Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels		The Torqueflite is out.
Quite happy about it, because it's a hell of a work.
It took me almost 30 minutes per bolt, as they were quite tightened, and not of easy access.
I did use the guides made out of 3" bolts, but the pump driving sleeve stayed with the converter, although it appeared undamaged.






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Attachments DSC02223 - Copie.JPG (186KB - 125 downloads)
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wizard
Posted 2016-10-16 1:01 PM (#523563 - in reply to #522975)
Subject: Re: Help removing Torqueflite



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Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island		Great Vincent! What was the reason for that you had to remove it?
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Chrome58
Posted 2016-10-16 1:14 PM (#523565 - in reply to #523563)
Subject: Re: Help removing Torqueflite



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Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels
wizard - 2016-10-16 7:01 PM

Great Vincent! What was the reason for that you had to remove it?

Well, my rear axle seized up ... Right in the middle of the road !
Hopefully I was coasting at a red light, so no problem with other cars.

After the rear axle problem was solved, all I had working was "R", "N" and "1". No "D" and "2" anymore.

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wizard
Posted 2016-10-16 1:28 PM (#523568 - in reply to #522975)
Subject: Re: Help removing Torqueflite



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Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island		Hmm, since you have the low (1), perhaps the valve body or the governor has some problems
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57chizler
Posted 2016-10-16 4:31 PM (#523580 - in reply to #523565)
Subject: Re: Help removing Torqueflite



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Chrome58 - 2016-10-16 10:14 AM
After the rear axle problem was solved, all I had working was "R", "N" and "1". No "D" and "2" anymore.


Sounds like the overrunning clutch has failed. Quite common in the 727 when a rear end fails, not sure of the iron TF.
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1960fury
Posted 2016-10-16 4:42 PM (#523582 - in reply to #523580)
Subject: Re: Help removing Torqueflite



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Location: northern germany		are we talking 8.3/4??? what can make them seize? i do a lot of high speed driving and the thought of a seized rear axle scares me...
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wizard
Posted 2016-10-17 2:07 AM (#523621 - in reply to #522975)
Subject: Re: Help removing Torqueflite



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Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island		My guess is that the spider gears gave up, or the shaft for the spider gears. This can happen if one does Heavy burn-outs or drive the car with two different tire´heights. Example 70 profile on one side and 75 profile on the other.....
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Chrome58
Posted 2016-10-17 3:34 AM (#523623 - in reply to #523621)
Subject: Re: Help removing Torqueflite



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Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels
57chizler - 2016-10-16 10:31 PM

Sounds like the overrunning clutch has failed. Quite common in the 727 when a rear end fails, not sure of the iron TF.

Interesting. I made a quick research, and it's indeed a fact, except that it happens when there's a rear end failure that allows free wheeling of the engine. Not the case here, as the rear axle seized ... But thanks for the hint.

1960fury - 2016-10-16 10:42 PM

are we talking 8.3/4??? what can make them seize? i do a lot of high speed driving and the thought of a seized rear axle scares me...

wizard - 2016-10-17 8:07 AM

My guess is that the spider gears gave up, or the shaft for the spider gears. This can happen if one does Heavy burn-outs or drive the car with two different tire´heights. Example 70 profile on one side and 75 profile on the other.....


Well, apparently, the first mechanic who I gave the job of replacing some parts (bearings, seals, ...), made a mess of it. Especially, he incorrectly adjusted the main pinion, so it kept brushing against the cage, and causing some heavy wear on both parts (but of course I saw that after). There was also too much play from an outside point of view, that's why I had bought in early July another '58 Plymouth rear axle which, by chance, was for sale here in Belgium.

But the main thing is (drum roll) ... He forgot to put gear oil in it ! And it never crossed the mind of the second mechanic who worked on my car to check that ! ... When we got the differential case out, it was all dust and rust inside !

Edited by Chrome58 2016-10-17 3:41 AM
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wizard
Posted 2016-10-17 4:00 AM (#523624 - in reply to #522975)
Subject: Re: Help removing Torqueflite



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Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island		Urrgh - incompetence and ignorance - a sad story indeed.

I think John is right though - when the rear axle seize then something else must turn....
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Chrome58
Posted 2016-10-17 10:12 AM (#523639 - in reply to #523624)
Subject: Re: Help removing Torqueflite



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Location: Belgium, 40 miles south of Brussels		I made a small analysis sheet to find the source of the problem (greeen is working, red isn’t working anymore, gray I don't know).
But I do not find a common clutch, band or planetary that explains solely the failure.
For example, it might be the front band, that would explain that “2” is not working, but then it does not explain why “D” does not work at start ...
Or maybe there is multiple failure ...

Edited by Chrome58 2016-10-17 10:14 AM




(Torqueflite2.png)



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Attachments Torqueflite2.png (7KB - 166 downloads)
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Powerflite
Posted 2016-10-17 11:30 AM (#523644 - in reply to #523639)
Subject: Re: Help removing Torqueflite



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Location: So. Cal		Multiple failures are quite likely in this case.... You really need to check through everything.
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