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Not Always Going Into 1st Gear
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matte
Posted 2016-12-04 3:26 AM (#527830)
Subject: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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Firstly thanks again to the good people who have chimed in with their help and suggestions and shared their knowledge with a novice of Fins. I really do appreciate it and would be close to stuffed without it.

Ok so some of you know that every time I take the car out since registering it, I'm ironing out all the problems I find.. Fingers crossed I've sorted out the fuel issue and hopefully the keeping the engine cool..

My newest one is going to make me look like a complete idiot!!! I've never driven a big old U.S car before so I don't know what to expect or how it should run.. It has a 1969 383 in it and is a 1958 Plymouth(just to refresh in peoples minds) Most times when I go for a test cruise and when I take off from a standing start I think "Bit of a dinosaur to get moving" and really feels a strain to get going because it such a slow incline to get moving.

For some reason when I was heading home and really struggling on a slight hill from take off, I decided to press 1 on the push buttons and away she went. Then waiting at the lights I pressed 2 and the take off was fast because in 1st and then sli into 2nd...

I'm pretty sure that in "D" sometimes it may go from 1st but definitely the majority of takes offs it has been starting off from 2nd gear. What would cause it to not go into 1st when using D but if I do it manually it does go into 1st?







Edited by matte 2016-12-04 3:31 AM
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Viper Guy
Posted 2016-12-04 9:07 AM (#527843 - in reply to #527830)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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Sounds like the valve body may be gummed up and not allowing first gear to engage when the DRIVE button is pushed. The car should ALWAYS start off in first from a standstill assuming your fluid level is in the range it's supposed to be and your linkages are adjusted properly.




Edited by Viper Guy 2016-12-04 9:11 AM
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wizard
Posted 2016-12-04 9:07 AM (#527844 - in reply to #527830)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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Matt, first of all, confirm that the throttle linkage is in place, if it is, then check that the adjustment is correct according to the fsm.

Next step would be to check and confirm that the pushbutton cable is correctly adjusted.
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60 Windsor
Posted 2016-12-04 12:01 PM (#527859 - in reply to #527844)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear


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If it's an aluminum torqueflite it could be that the governor valve circlip popped off. I had the same thing happen on a 1977 dodge (no breakaway unless I manually put it in 1st) and when I pulled the tailshaft the circlip was laying in the bottom.
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57chizler
Posted 2016-12-04 4:57 PM (#527869 - in reply to #527830)
Subject: RE: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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matte - 2016-12-04 12:26 AM

What would cause it to not go into 1st when using D but if I do it manually it does go into 1st?


Worst case.....the overrunning clutch (sprag) has failed. The sprag is used only in Drive, 1st gear; if it fails the car won't move forward at all or will be sluggish. Shifting to "1" applies the rear band which supplements the slipping sprag.
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matte
Posted 2016-12-04 6:02 PM (#527876 - in reply to #527830)
Subject: RE: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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Is the sprag problem a common one?


HaHa with the luck I've been having it's probably going to be that



Edited by matte 2016-12-04 6:22 PM
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matte
Posted 2016-12-04 6:04 PM (#527877 - in reply to #527830)
Subject: RE: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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I don't think the cable is adjusted correctly. To get neutral from drive, I have to go from D to R to N so I guess it's the cable adjustment? I asked the last mechanic to do it which he said he did, but I'm finding a few things he said he did that he hadn't. I just assumed because I could select D it was ok except for the process of getting it into neutral but do you think that's more likely to be the problem??

Do you guys mean the kick down linkage? I don't think it's attached and I'm pretty sure it doesn't kick down when I hit the throttle but I've only tried once. I'm still p***y footing around with this car so I haven't given it much of a work out until I know it's running good.

Is the governor valve circlip easy to view?

Photo of I guess the unattached linkage?







(IMG_6150.JPG)



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wizard
Posted 2016-12-05 2:18 AM (#527898 - in reply to #527830)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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This is for sure a problem Matt; this is NOT a Kick down linkage (many call it kick down wrongly). This IS the throttle linkage and it gives the transmission information on how much throttle the driver applies. Hence the function is to give the correct shifting points to the various throttle positions and finally also it gives the forced geardown - kick down.

To drive an automatic transmission without the throttle linkage or with a wrongly adjusted throttle linkage might damage the transmission.

Fix this first of all and see if that is your root problem.
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matte
Posted 2016-12-05 3:26 AM (#527900 - in reply to #527898)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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Now to come across as a complete tool but what part do I need to find and how does it connect to the gearbox?

Oh and the other thing.. If I select 2 on the dash button should it go from 1st to 2nd or take off from 1st?





Edited by matte 2016-12-05 3:28 AM
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wizard
Posted 2016-12-05 3:28 AM (#527901 - in reply to #527830)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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I don't have a picture Matt, but I have this excerpt form the trining manual. Practically it's a bent steel rod with an adjuastable section Close to the throttle lever on the transmission.



(Resize of Rotation of Copy of T-F_P-Series_page_011b.jpg)



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matte
Posted 2016-12-05 6:14 AM (#527910 - in reply to #527901)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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That gives me something to go on. Thanks Sven.. Looks like I'm chasing C and maybe the lever on the gearbox.. Wonder if I can find something on an Australian Chrysler or Dodge..

Or I just found these for a cable conversion

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chrysler-727-Stainless-Braided-Kickdown-Cab...




Edited by matte 2016-12-05 5:58 PM
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wizard
Posted 2016-12-05 7:06 AM (#527913 - in reply to #527830)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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You should be able to find them locally - all the MoPar cars had them. If not, turn to John at Big-M
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57chizler
Posted 2016-12-05 5:22 PM (#527961 - in reply to #527877)
Subject: RE: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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matte - 2016-12-04 3:04 PM
I don't think the cable is adjusted correctly. To get neutral from drive, I have to go from D to R to N so I guess it's the cable adjustment? I asked the last mechanic to do it which he said he did, but I'm finding a few things he said he did that he hadn't. I just assumed because I could select D it was ok except for the process of getting it into neutral but do you think that's more likely to be the problem??


If the transmission and the shift cable are mismatched, there can be slop in the shift. The pic below shows two types of cable ends, if the cable with the wide slot is used in an adapter setup for the narrow slot there will be lost motion and the symptoms you describe.

On the transmission pan rail just above the gasket on the drivers side there is a number stamped, thqat number will tell you the year and application.



(Cables&adapters.jpg)



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matte
Posted 2016-12-05 6:02 PM (#527964 - in reply to #527830)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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Thanks John. I've been wanting to get the number of the gearbox so this gives me more of a reason. I wish wiggling in and out from underneath the car was a good form of exercise. I'd be one fit guy by now..

Is there any identification for the cable itself to know if it matches? I was reading that one is for push button and the other was for console shift.. Which makes sense because I know the engine is a 1969 383 so as soon as I decode the transmission, I'll know if that's a later box as well. Maybe the person used the original push button cable into the newer transmission.







Edited by matte 2016-12-05 11:45 PM
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matte
Posted 2016-12-05 6:27 PM (#527966 - in reply to #527830)
Subject: RE: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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Oh My god I am a complete moron!!!!! I do still have all the linkages in place.. Guys I think I should give up my FL car and go buy a Nissan!

I went out to have a look to see if the linkages were still on the carb end and then as I push the linkages I noticed movement down near the gearbox and saw it all there.. I guess this time I had a bright light and was also looking.. Also the 1st photo looked like something was missing from that pivot ball so I naturally thought.

The 2nd photo shows the setup but not that clear. There is one linkage that goes to an arm nearer to the bell housing then another linkage goes from that to another lever near the gearbox pan. Is this complete and sounding correct? What are the 2 different arms on the gearbox?

I pulled these numbers just above the pan but having trouble finding decoding on the net. A1942275 0213706 The last lot of number have been stamped on a bit of an angle so the very last number looks to be a 6...


 

 



Edited by matte 2016-12-05 9:10 PM




(IMG_6150.JPG)



(IMG_6161.JPG)



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wizard
Posted 2016-12-06 2:09 AM (#527993 - in reply to #527830)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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Great - at least you have all the linkages! The first arm is just a fulcrum, the second arm is the throttle valve arm.
Now check the rubber bushing in the throttle arm - most probably it's rotten with too much free play. Read the adjusting proceedure in your fsm and make sure that you get the correct adjustment.
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matte
Posted 2016-12-06 2:21 AM (#527994 - in reply to #527993)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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I don't think I can use the service manual because it's a later engine and gearbox.. I wrote the I'D of the box above but can't find it. I found this old procedure for different 71 models and the whole thing is really interesting and typical 70's production. Mine is closest to the one that starts at 11:55 but instead of having ball adjusters mine has 2 slide adjusters. Mine still has the gear selector cable going into the box as opposed to the selector being on the outside so I guess mine is after the 50's but before 1971.. Also the top lever on the video looks like its connected to the intake manifold whereas mine is on the firewall.. It's wider and I don't have the holes that the 3/16 rod goes through to lock it off... Maybe my setup has been bas***dised to fit!!!!


It's good viewing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY9WTWayCC8

Edited by matte 2016-12-06 2:30 AM
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matte
Posted 2016-12-06 3:00 AM (#527996 - in reply to #527994)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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I was thinking of adjusting like this

1. Loosing slider that operates the arm that runs down the bell housing(see photo in previous post)
2. Zip tie throttle valve arm as far forward as it can go(kind of like what the tool in the video is doing)
3. Warm up car to operating temp and is at normal idle
4. Take up slack and tighten up nut on the same arm that I slackened off in step 1
5. Check and adjust arm that goes to the Carby.

Kind of like the video. Will that work doing it like that?


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57chizler
Posted 2016-12-06 11:47 AM (#528018 - in reply to #527966)
Subject: RE: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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matte - 2016-12-05 3:27 PM
I pulled these numbers just above the pan but having trouble finding decoding on the net. A1942275 0213706


1942272 is from a 1962 Dodge 880
0213 is the build date February 26, 1962
706 is the sequence number, the 706th built that day

The so-called kickdown linkage only works properly when it's designed and adjusted properly, mismatched parts often result in improper operation. Your cobbled-together combo of rods and bellcranks doesn't look too efficient.

Basically, the original linkage is designed so that the transmission lever will be full forward when the carb is at curb idle and will move the lever rearward proportionally with the throttle opening until the trans lever is near full back at WOT.
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matte
Posted 2016-12-06 3:32 PM (#528044 - in reply to #528018)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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Thanks for finding the info about the gearbox.

Nah the rod combo is definitely factory made and not a homemade backyard job but I just don't know what year car it came out from. I've found a few photos with that same slide system but not detailed enough.. I disconnected it from the carby and the setup pushes and pulls the throttle lever smoothly..

At best I will try with the steps I mentioned and see what happens..

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matte
Posted 2016-12-18 7:23 PM (#529086 - in reply to #527830)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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Ok so I got rid of the cowboy linkage setup that someone installed. I tried everything and it wasn't going to work. I bought a lokar cable for a 727 transmission. Before I ordered one I emailed Lokar to make sure it will fit but they didn't email back until a few days later. I asked the guy I was buying it from in Aust, just so if it didn't work I could then say "but you said...". Anyway Lokar got back to me but it was too late. They said no it won't work on the early 727 transmissions and I then asked if that's a definite. They then replied with maybe it will work but maybe it won't so 50/50. I actually wanted to say so when they advertise as fitting "ALL" Chrysler 727 transmissions they actually don't mean "ALL"!

I decided to bite the bullet and fit it because I couldn't see the difference except the later ones have another lever on the outside for the gear selector. Also I don't like it when companies try to sell add ons with BS. In the instructions it reads you must have the Lokar carby cable and lokar bracket and to purchase them before starting.. I made my own bracket and adapted it to the current carby cable bracket and just made sure the carby cable was going to WOT from the pedal(which it wasn't)

Cut a long story short I now have 1st, 2nd and 3rd in down and up shifts. I also have kick down from 2nd to 1st and 3rd to 2nd. This is straight after installation so I do need to do a bit of tweaking because 2nd to 3rd mainly changes after I back off even with easy pedal pressure. I also need to take it for a drive along I bit of a straight. Too many cars and corners in my area so I don't really have full gear changes..




Edited by matte 2016-12-18 7:27 PM
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57chizler
Posted 2016-12-19 2:30 PM (#529186 - in reply to #529086)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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One (of many) things I don't like about the Lokar cable setup is the absence of a spring to pull the transmission lever full forward when the carb is at curb idle....factory linkage does.

Another thing I don't like is the mismatch (in most cases) of the carb travel to the transmission lever travel....IOW, their instructions have you adjust so that the trans lever is full back at WOT which most often results in late light-throttle upshift speeds. This can be corrected by drilling a new hole in the trans lever to match the trans lever travel to the carb lever travel.
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matte
Posted 2016-12-19 3:33 PM (#529195 - in reply to #529186)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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They are a good option for people in my predicament though.. I couldn't find one from a Chrysler over here and especially for my setup.

My other option was to source one from the US and get it sent over. It was slim pickings and with the cost of freight and product was not justifiable on my budget. It was going to cost around $400AUS and I need to spend money on other areas. http://www.ebay.com/itm/383-4-BARREL-727-AUTO-KICKDOWN-LINKAGE-SET-...

Through a lot of misfortune with this car, I've run out of the old cash.. I was so happy once the cable was installed because I've never felt the car work so good since I've had it.

I bought a box of springs to find the correct size and tension to put one end on the lever and the other on the old bottom bell housing mount but read on other forums and hotrod sites it isn't needed. I don't know how true this is but I do research different sites for true or false reports. I read that the first 1/4" of the travel has no bearing on the transmission and is free travel. Hahaha I actually think I read people asking for John's "57chizler" advise on cables. Might of been a Charger site. Can't remember as I was reading so many different sites trying to get an idea before I payed for the cable.

I would like the rod setup one day but at this point in time.... After all, car manufactures know their own product the best and how to set it up. I'm not a big supporter of aftermarket gear but sometimes it can pull you out of the crapper.




Edited by matte 2016-12-19 3:38 PM
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57chizler
Posted 2016-12-20 3:10 PM (#529301 - in reply to #529195)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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matte - 2016-12-19 12:33 PM
I read that the first 1/4" of the travel has no bearing on the transmission and is free travel.


One "expert" even claims that the first half of the lever's travel is free play. This is true on the bench with no pressure in the trans but anybody who has tried to adjust the so-called kickdown linkage knows that a very minor adjustment just off idle will have a noticeable effect on the upshift speed.

When a pressure gauge is hooked to the line pressure test port with the engine idling in Drive, one can view the rise in line pressure as the lever is moved rearward.
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matte
Posted 2016-12-20 4:45 PM (#529314 - in reply to #529301)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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Oh I read that on some Hotrod editorial about Lokar cable installation. He said it only starts working when you feel any pressure and before that is nothing. I thought to myself that that did't make sense. I also thought my fingers are sensitive but they ain't no pressure gauge.
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57chizler
Posted 2016-12-21 6:36 PM (#529451 - in reply to #529314)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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The Hotrod article is the "expert" I was referring to, lots of misinformation in that article.
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matte
Posted 2017-02-19 2:03 AM (#534318 - in reply to #527830)
Subject: RE: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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I had the transmission changing from in all gears and both gear kick down was working but that was only a few shorts tests... When the car gets hot and driven for a while 2nd to 3rd gets drawn out then a little later it doesn't go into 3rd. I remember the last mechanic saying that he put more fluid so I checked when hot and the car idling.. Could this cause the above system when fluid gets hot after driving for around 12 or more miles?

The fluid is up to the join of the 2 pavers but can't see in photo.. The fluid is red but doesn't really show when a thin line.\


Edited by matte 2017-02-19 2:06 AM




(IMG_6674.JPG)



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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2017-02-19 5:18 AM (#534322 - in reply to #527830)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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Too much oil.
The oil will mostlikely start to foam and the delayed shifts as air enters the valvebody.




Edited by BigBlockMopar 2017-02-19 5:19 AM
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Shep
Posted 2017-02-19 10:41 AM (#534334 - in reply to #534322)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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True about excessive oil, but I don't think that is overfilled enough,drive it again till the condition occurs, then check the dipstick form signs of foam. Failure to shift to third could be a stuck governor, sticking shift valve, or foward clutch slippage.
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matte
Posted 2017-02-19 4:17 PM (#534352 - in reply to #534334)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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Shep - 2017-02-19 10:41 AM
............................... Failure to shift to third could be a stuck governor, sticking shift valve, or foward clutch slippage.


Would any of those only happen when the transmission has been driven around for a few miles and is hot?

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wizard
Posted 2017-02-19 4:42 PM (#534353 - in reply to #527830)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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Before you go too deep into troubleshooting, confirm that you have the correct fluid level first. The transmission fluid will begin to cavitate if the fluid level is too high, but also if the fluid level is to low.

Be sure to park the car in level and have someone assisting you; with the transmission in normal working temperature, work through all positions, D,2,1,R and then press N. Now the assistant should very fast check the fluid level. The second attempt will give a false reading.....

Once you're sure that you have the correct fluid level, then it's time for some troubleshoting, like Shep suggests.

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matte
Posted 2017-04-08 11:27 PM (#537658 - in reply to #527830)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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As I said in the post regarding timing and tuning, I finally got nice weather and free time to start addressing things.

Playing around with throttle lever adjustments to get it into 3rd

Disconnected cable and put lever in the forward position. 1,2 & 3rd are all present.

Tried to find happy medium between kick down and gear shifts. Thought I would try and get 3rd working correctly first then worry about kick down.

Noticed on an adjustment 3rd would work sometimes by itself but very rarely. However what I did notice was when I was driving and the car was in the range for 3rd and I pushed 2nd then D on the back off, it would go into 3rd.

I also have that problem of when parked after driving, to be able to restart again, I have to push R first then go into neutral. John has pointed concerning that issue could be to do with the wrong shift cable end..

Obviously the cable isn't aligning the positions correctly but could that also cause it not to go in 3rd when in D and won't until I press 2 first then D??


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matte
Posted 2017-04-10 5:16 AM (#537745 - in reply to #527830)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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Anyone even want to take a punt??

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wizard
Posted 2017-04-10 5:31 AM (#537746 - in reply to #527830)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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Pull the pan and check that the ball goes into the detents on the selection crescent arm. Most probably it doesn't.

And, yes, not having the valve in the proper position might cause strange issues
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matte
Posted 2017-04-10 5:39 PM (#537805 - in reply to #537746)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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Thanks for that. I might get a 727 manual before I drop the pan so I know exactly what I'm looking at..

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wizard
Posted 2017-04-11 1:41 AM (#537830 - in reply to #527830)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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Here's a picture on the crescent and the ball. Just check that the ball is centered (as much as possible) in all positions



(IMG_6558_rez.jpg)



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matte
Posted 2017-04-11 5:17 PM (#537885 - in reply to #537830)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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That's great, thanks. I was wondering what it looked like when inside.

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1961plymouthfury
Posted 2017-10-06 2:51 AM (#549870 - in reply to #527830)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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You might be better off having the transmission rebuilt
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Chrome58
Posted 2017-10-08 5:51 AM (#549962 - in reply to #527898)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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wizard - 2016-12-05 8:18 AM

To drive an automatic transmission without the throttle linkage or with a wrongly adjusted throttle linkage might damage the transmission.

Now you've got me worried.
I drove all summer without my throttle linkage, mainly on flat roads, though.
I will put it back this winter.
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wizard
Posted 2017-10-08 7:12 AM (#549964 - in reply to #527830)
Subject: Re: Not Always Going Into 1st Gear



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It's the erratic shift pattern that might damage the transmission Vincent, but I imagine that you handled the car carefully.
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