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Pre-FL Functional air scoop
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-04-19 8:13 PM (#561932 - in reply to #561907)
Subject: Re: Pre-FL Functional air scoop



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57burb - 2018-04-19 4:14 PM

It's starting to look like something! Thanks for the (detailed ) updates.


Thanks. It's going to look pretty okay after the next and hopefully last coat of resin and a then some sanding and polishing.

But I need to get going on the modified air cleaner to make it all work.

I am in the process of selling one of my cars (93 Audi S4 sedan) and I am getting a bit distracted.

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56D500boy
Posted 2018-05-11 11:11 PM (#563204 - in reply to #561932)
Subject: Re: Pre-FL Functional air scoop



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56D500boy - 2018-04-19 8:13 PM
I am in the process of selling one of my cars (93 Audi S4 sedan) and I am getting a bit distracted.
:)


Okay. My 350 hp 1993 Audi S4 quattro sedan (probably capable of 160 mph because they could do 150 mph with the factory 227 hp)that I had for 2 months short of 20 years and put a lot of blood sweat and $$$ into sold. Bye.

Back to the 56 Dodge.

Been working on the carpet install which has meant working on the C and B pillar covers so I can hold the new windlace in place. Today while the new paint on the B-pillar covers was drying, I started to play with the air scoop.

Dug into the foam core and extracted about 85% of it. Then I trial fitted it again into the space between the rad support and the right grill bar. Fits better than I remembered. Plus a piece of 4" PVC fits perfectly into the remaining 1/2" of the 4" coupling that I left in the scoop. I need to cut that piece of 4" PVC shorter and paint it. I also need to totally remove the foam core (somehow), add a final coat of resin on the outside and finalize the 2 or 3 options that I have for an anti-squirrel grill in the front of the scoop.

Photos from today:





Edited by 56D500boy 2018-05-11 11:15 PM




(Mark7ScoopFromAboveMay11_2018.jpg)



(Mark7ScoopFromSideMay11_2018.jpg)



(Mark7ScoopFromFrontMay11_2018.jpg)



(Mark7ScoopFromEngineBayMay11_2018.jpg)



(Mark7ScoopFromEngineBayWith4inchPVCNippleMay11_2018.jpg)



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Attachments Mark7ScoopFromAboveMay11_2018.jpg (145KB - 178 downloads)
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Attachments Mark7ScoopFromFrontMay11_2018.jpg (170KB - 169 downloads)
Attachments Mark7ScoopFromEngineBayMay11_2018.jpg (103KB - 167 downloads)
Attachments Mark7ScoopFromEngineBayWith4inchPVCNippleMay11_2018.jpg (99KB - 171 downloads)
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-05-12 1:24 AM (#563215 - in reply to #532535)
Subject: Re: Pre-FL Functional air scoop



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Now you need to paint the inside of it black to make it less visible from outside the car.
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-05-12 1:39 AM (#563217 - in reply to #563215)
Subject: Re: Pre-FL Functional air scoop



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Powerflite - 2018-05-12 1:24 AM

Now you need to paint the inside of it black to make it less visible from outside the car.


Absolutely. That was always part of "the Plan". Flat black yet. However, I can't do that until I get rid of all the white polystyrene beads. I've only used a 1" putty knife so far but will be getting out the big guns in the next few days. There is a possibility of Acetone being used.

We'll see.

I will post a photo when it is done, i.e. another coat of resin on the carbon fibre and maybe on the inside too.



Edited by 56D500boy 2018-05-12 1:40 AM
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-05-26 1:45 PM (#564041 - in reply to #563217)
Subject: Re: Pre-FL Functional air scoop



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Previously I had found this advertisement from the August 1956 issue of Car Life:



Yesterday I bought a May 1956 Car Life magazine and there was an article about how to achieve 25 mpg and it featured the same cold air induction system. I see they definitely had a flapper/butterfly in the system.





(CarLifeMay56_CoolAirInduction_small.jpg)



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Attachments CarLifeMay56_CoolAirInduction_small.jpg (243KB - 161 downloads)
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1960fury
Posted 2018-05-27 7:42 AM (#564064 - in reply to #532535)
Subject: Re: Pre-FL Functional air scoop



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Some of the old ads in the magazine are rubbish, this is not. Thanks for sharing.
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-06-06 4:10 PM (#564677 - in reply to #564064)
Subject: Re: Pre-FL Functional air scoop



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After recently finishing (98%) the conversion of an OE oil bath air cleaner to paper, I got back to this project. I've painted the modified Golden Lion filter with black crinkle paint (still drying - photos to come) and cleaning out the inside of the air scoop.

When I did the scoop plug, I should have covered the form with clear packing tape because the fiberglass resin did not stick to it and the resulting surface was shiny and smooth. But I didn't. So I have to deal with the resin getting in to the dry wall mud that I had applied in some areas as well as into the beaded part of the foam in other places. It was a bit of nightmare.

In the end after trying a bunch of mechanical means, scrapers, wire wheels, brushes, etc. what worked was my 20 year old Dremel and a die-grinder bit on medium speed, followed by wet sanding in our laundry sink with 220 grit paper. Then I dried it and painted it with a semi-gloss black paint. Not sure if I will add a coat of resin over that or not. Probably not. Outside, yes. Inside, no.

I tried the painted scoop in its location behind the right grill bar and it is very much hidden/stealth. Perfect.

Needs some final sanding/trimming on the inlet edge. I've added some JB Weld at the outlet end where the white PVC ring is "attached" to the fiberglass shell.

Some photos from today:



Edited by 56D500boy 2018-06-06 4:13 PM




(AirScoopAfterTrimmingTheInteriorWithADremelDieGrinder_1.jpg)



(AirScoopAfterTrimmingTheInteriorWithADremelDieGrinder_2.jpg)



(AirScoopAfterTrimmingTheInteriorWithADremelDieGrinder_AndWetSandingWith220Grit.jpg)



(AirScoopAfterTrimmingTheInteriorWithADremelDieGrinder_AndWetSandingWith220GritAndSemiGlossPaint.jpg)



(AirScoopInPlaceWithSemiGlossBlackInteriorPaint.jpg)



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Attachments AirScoopAfterTrimmingTheInteriorWithADremelDieGrinder_AndWetSandingWith220Grit.jpg (178KB - 151 downloads)
Attachments AirScoopAfterTrimmingTheInteriorWithADremelDieGrinder_AndWetSandingWith220GritAndSemiGlossPaint.jpg (205KB - 159 downloads)
Attachments AirScoopInPlaceWithSemiGlossBlackInteriorPaint.jpg (181KB - 155 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-06-06 9:17 PM (#564690 - in reply to #564677)
Subject: Re: Pre-FL Functional air scoop



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Applied the "last" coat of resin on the outside of the air scoop this afternoon. While it was drying/curing, I cut the white PVC coupler down to a size that works as a spacer that leaves me about 3/8" between the bottom of the air cleaner and the top of the carburetor choke.

Trialled the modified Golden Lion air cleaner on the carb and discovered that I need a longer carb/air cleaner rod. Off to RONA (now owned by Lowes) to buy a stick of 1/4" x 20 thread ready rod. While I was there, I also picked up a 4" galvanized heating duct damper to put somewhere between the scoop and the air cleaner and a length of flexible dryer duct (the good kind).

When I got back, I cut an appropriate length of ready rod and mounted the air cleaner. Then I tried the flexible duct over the air cleaner snorkel. Oops. Needs a spacer/adapter. No problem. I had a black ABS reducer that was perfect size to fit over the snorkel and inside the flexi duct. (Luck or skill ?? LOL. LUCK). So I cut an adapter ring and gave it a light sanding. It will need more to fully fit over the snorkel. Fine for now.

I put the adapter ring on the end of the snorkel and tried the duct. Hmm....Snorkel is a bit long. *IF* I want to include the damper in series between the scoop and the air cleaner, the snorkel is going to have to be about 3" or more shorter so the bend in the flexiduct isn't crazy. I can figure that out tomorrow. For today, I pushed the flexiduct further over the snorkel to see if there was some improvement. Some but it's going to need a hack saw on the snorkel.

Some photos from today:



Edited by 56D500boy 2018-06-06 9:22 PM




(LastCoatOfResinDryingOnAirScoop.jpg)



(ModifiedGoldenLionAirCleanerOn315Hemi.jpg)



(ModifiedGoldenLionAirCleanerOn315Hemi_WithABSAirHoseAdapterRing.jpg)



(ModifiedGoldenLionAirCleanerOn315Hemi_WithABSAirHoseAdapterRingAnd4InchFlexiDuct.jpg)



(ModifiedGoldenLionAirCleanerOn315Hemi_WithABSAirHoseAdapterRingAnd4InchFlexiDuct_PushedOnFurther.jpg)



(Galvanized4InchFlowDamper_1.jpg)



(Galvanized4InchFlowDamper_2.jpg)



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Attachments LastCoatOfResinDryingOnAirScoop.jpg (222KB - 165 downloads)
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Attachments ModifiedGoldenLionAirCleanerOn315Hemi_WithABSAirHoseAdapterRing.jpg (171KB - 159 downloads)
Attachments ModifiedGoldenLionAirCleanerOn315Hemi_WithABSAirHoseAdapterRingAnd4InchFlexiDuct.jpg (154KB - 165 downloads)
Attachments ModifiedGoldenLionAirCleanerOn315Hemi_WithABSAirHoseAdapterRingAnd4InchFlexiDuct_PushedOnFurther.jpg (161KB - 158 downloads)
Attachments Galvanized4InchFlowDamper_1.jpg (123KB - 169 downloads)
Attachments Galvanized4InchFlowDamper_2.jpg (130KB - 171 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-06-06 11:21 PM (#564695 - in reply to #564690)
Subject: Re: Pre-FL Functional air scoop



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After reviewing my photos, I find that 4" ducting looks ridiculous. Time to rethink and work with 3" ducting instead. Somehow.

AFTER reviewing my original plans, I see that I *WAS* going to use 3" ducting. Not sure when I let it morph to 4". No biggy. Back to Plan A = 3 inch.



Edited by 56D500boy 2018-06-07 2:07 AM
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-06-07 8:13 PM (#564762 - in reply to #564695)
Subject: Re: Pre-FL Functional air scoop



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56D500boy - 2018-06-06 11:21 PM
After reviewing my photos, I find that 4" ducting looks ridiculous. Time to rethink and work with 3" ducting instead. Somehow.
AFTER reviewing my original plans, I see that I *WAS* going to use 3" ducting. Not sure when I let it morph to 4". No biggy. Back to Plan A = 3 inch.


3" was the way to go.

I stopped at RONA (now owned by Lowes) and went through their plumbing and heating section looking for bits that I could cobble together to use 3" flexible hose. Turned out better than I expected.

As per the photo(s) below, I bought 3" semi-rigid aluminum ducting, a 3" galvanized round connector union, a 3" PVC to ABS adapter (SOC x SP) and a 4" x 3" PVC to ABS reducing adapter. The 3" galvanized union fits inside the flexible ducting and the flexible ducting fits inside the air cleaner snorkel. The only game was to cut down the PVC and ABS bits so they were shorted (long enough to get glued together but not much more). I still need to work on that 3" PVC to ABS adapter that the 3" galvanized union slips into. It could be shorter.

IF I am going to have a damper I will have to have it *IN* the snorkel. I need to work on that more.

For now, here are some photos of how it went together today (NOTE: 1. Yes, I need to replace my hood to rad support gasket 2. The white PVC spool piece that you can see in the last two photos will get painted semi-gloss or flat black and it will disappear):





(AirScoopTo3inchHoseTransitionComponents.jpg)



(AirScoopTo3inchHoseTransitionComponentsCutDown.jpg)



(AirScoopInPlaceShowingTheWhitePVCSpoolPiece_1.jpg)



(AirScoopInPlaceShowingTheWhitePVCSpoolPiece_2.jpg)



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Attachments AirScoopTo3inchHoseTransitionComponents.jpg (245KB - 169 downloads)
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Attachments AirScoopInPlaceShowingTheWhitePVCSpoolPiece_1.jpg (172KB - 149 downloads)
Attachments AirScoopInPlaceShowingTheWhitePVCSpoolPiece_2.jpg (120KB - 153 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2019-07-21 12:59 PM (#585051 - in reply to #564762)
Subject: Re: Pre-FL Functional air scoop



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Ran the converted OE air cleaner(with stacked filters) all winter and it was fine. On Friday, I sanded and recoated the carbon fibre "Ram Air" air scoop. Yesterday, after going for a nice run in the Dodge, I removed the converted air cleaner and re-installed the "Ram Air" air filter system. I was surprised: 1) the ram air was quieter (??) - the opposite of what I thought before, and 2) the engine didn't seem to run as well (??). I might have to install a flow limiting baffle in the ram air system after all.

From this:



Back to this (old photo) (except with a much smoother/shinier scoop):



Edited by 56D500boy 2019-07-21 1:38 PM
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mikes2nd
Posted 2019-07-21 2:26 PM (#585054 - in reply to #532535)
Subject: Re: Pre-FL Functional air scoop


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you are probably running lean, that carb isn't able to handle all the air your throwing at it, you can richen it up and it should help, your going to eat more gas but you should then start to see performance gains.

Don't run lean man... You'll destroy it. Your bringing in alot of air i would expect. Pull the pipe how does the car run? with just the air cleaner open to the engine bay?

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/engine/high-speed-engine-tuni...

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1960fury
Posted 2019-07-21 3:02 PM (#585055 - in reply to #585054)
Subject: Re: Pre-FL Functional air scoop



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mikes2nd - 2019-07-21 2:26 PM

you are probably running lean, that carb isn't able to handle all the air your throwing at it, you can richen it up and it should help, your going to eat more gas



Physically not possible. Cooler air makes an engine run more efficient, that is the performance gain, it is free, after you adjusted the idle/jetting for the cooler air (leaner mixture). At idle (?), if really a lean condition is the cause (?), once you adjusted the mixture it will idle faster/smoother and you can back off the curb idle screw. Same for jetting, you need less throttle opening for the same amount of power.
I installed several cold/ram air systems, all engines responded with a smoother idle in hot weather and yes, the mixture needs to be adjusted, especially for driving in cold weather.
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mikes2nd
Posted 2019-07-21 9:04 PM (#585065 - in reply to #532535)
Subject: Re: Pre-FL Functional air scoop


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well it would only happen at higher speeds,of course cooler is better but its absolutely possible. even the article says so and it makes sense...

your saying he is running richer? he didn't say if it was an idle issue or when he is at high speed or accelerating. well need to know if its all the time or when its happening.



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1960fury
Posted 2019-07-22 7:47 AM (#585077 - in reply to #585065)
Subject: Re: Pre-FL Functional air scoop



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mikes2nd - 2019-07-21 9:04 PM

well it would only happen at higher speeds,of course cooler is better but its absolutely possible. even the article says so and it makes sense...

your saying he is running richer? he didn't say if it was an idle issue or when he is at high speed or accelerating. well need to know if its all the time or when its happening.



What would happen only at higher speeds? With cooler, denser air an engine is always running more efficient. Where did you read I was saying he is running richer? No, colder air will of course lean out the mixture.
Yes, he didn't say if it is the idle or main circuit, that is why I added the question mark, but a lean condition can of course happen at any engine speed. I was just stating physical facts.

Edited by 1960fury 2019-07-22 3:46 PM
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60 Imp
Posted 2020-02-05 3:08 AM (#593820 - in reply to #532535)
Subject: RE: Pre-FL Functional air scoop


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Dave, any update on this? Steve.
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-02-05 11:14 AM (#593833 - in reply to #593820)
Subject: RE: Pre-FL Functional air scoop



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60 Imp - 2020-02-05 12:08 AM
Dave, any update on this? Steve.


Not really. I am running the OE look D500 red "oil bath" (with the paper filter conversion) again for the winter. I did ad a "315 Hemi Head" sticker that I made for the chrome air cleaner to the black "Ram Air" air cleaner at some point but that is about all. I am still thinking about a cable-controlled baffle in the intake pipe/hose (or the snorkle) to limit the "Ram Air" air to some extent.

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1960fury
Posted 2020-02-05 2:48 PM (#593845 - in reply to #593833)
Subject: RE: Pre-FL Functional air scoop



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56D500boy - 2020-02-05 11:14 AM

I am still thinking about a cable-controlled baffle in the intake pipe/hose (or the snorkle) to limit the "Ram Air" air to some extent.

:)


Why? You ain't gonna have a big ram-effect anyway.
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-03-24 12:46 PM (#595966 - in reply to #585051)
Subject: Re: Pre-FL Functional air scoop



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.
I forgot that sometime ago I had found photos to the 53 Dodge "air scoop". I don't think that I had posted them up. (Until now)

So here they are, starting with the original brochure/advert showing the "Jet Air-flow hood" scoop. As shown in the photos, the scoop doesn't actually deliver cold air "directly to the carburetor". More like "to the vicinity of the air cleaner that sits on the carburetor"



Edited by 56D500boy 2020-03-24 12:50 PM




(AdvertShowingHoodScoop_small.jpg)



(AdvertShowingHoodScoop_Detail.jpg)



(53DodgeHoodScoopFromOutside_small.jpg)



(53DodgeDuctingFromHoodScoopOverRadSupportToEngineBay_1_small.jpg)



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Attachments 53DodgeHoodScoopFromOutside_small.jpg (59KB - 1 downloads)
Attachments 53DodgeDuctingFromHoodScoopOverRadSupportToEngineBay_1_small.jpg (183KB - 2 downloads)
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LostDeere59
Posted 2020-03-26 2:24 PM (#596068 - in reply to #585051)
Subject: Re: Pre-FL Functional air scoop



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"Ran the converted OE air cleaner(with stacked filters) all winter and it was fine. On Friday, I sanded and recoated the carbon fibre "Ram Air" air scoop. Yesterday, after going for a nice run in the Dodge, I removed the converted air cleaner and re-installed the "Ram Air" air filter system. I was surprised: 1) the ram air was quieter (??) - the opposite of what I thought before, and 2) the engine didn't seem to run as well (??). I might have to install a flow limiting baffle in the ram air system after all. :("


At the risk of starting a technical argument with Sid and Mike I have to make a couple of comments here.

First, I'm not at all surprised that your perception is a quieter intake with the ram air set-up. Your factory (red) filter has an exposed element and is essentially an open element filter like most aftermarket units. Yes the housing provides some muffling of the intake noise, but not much. In addition that noise is generated close to you - under the hood, next to the firewall, near the HVAC system inlets and housing, etcetera.

The ram air system, on the other hand, is a fully enclosed air filter housing, with a sealed duct leading to an area about as far away from you (the driver) as possible. I'm sure the intake noise at the front of the car is significant - but being ahead of the radiator support, facing away from you, and low to the ground, you won't ever hear it.

Just for fun you should put a camera on the ground and do a couple of wide open throttle drive-by's with both air cleaner set-ups installed . . .

Now, as to your perception of the engine not running as well . . .

I can see a couple of possible explanations right off the bat, and have a couple of ideas that may require some thought.

First, lets address the things that would be fairly obvious. Chief among those is the air cleaner assembly itself. Based on what I can see, and my recollection of what you put together, the air filter housing you are using with the ram air has a completely different profile at the base of the carburetor. Many people don't understand this, but the shape of the air cleaner base is extremely important to effective fuel metering because it directly affects the airflow into the carb throat - the area where the air bleeds and emulsion tubes take their reference from. Anything that changes the airflow at this critical point in the carburetor will have a significant, and often detrimental effect on fuel metering. There have been plenty of articles written over the years demonstrating this and backing it up with dyno and flow bench testing.

Second, again related to your change in air cleaner housing, is the change in inlet air temperature. Where I live carb icing isn't much of an issue in July, but up your way I would guess it may be possible. Cooler outside air will also be more humid, and as that air passes through the venturi of the carb it accelerates and the pressure drops - also causing a drop in temperature. That drop in temperature along with the pressure drop causes humidity to condense, which then tries to evaporate, further cooling the metal of the carb body. This constant ongoing process can and will reduce the temperature of the carb throat to the point that condensing humidity begins to freeze - obstructing the aforementioned air bleeds and emulsion tubes, again to the detriment of fuel metering. While you might think this is unlikely, it is possible depending on the specifics of weather and your altered system. Because this symptom can vanish once the airflow is reduced it can be very difficult to detect by stopping the car and raising the hood.

And my final thought has to do with the overall effect of a sealed intake tract on a carbureted vehicle. Modern cars with port type fuel injection rely almost exclusively on this type of intake system, and can do so because fuel metering is almost completely independent from the physics of inlet airflow. Air intake is measured, along with other important factors such as load, throttle position, etcetera, and fuel injection quantity and timing is determined based on a programmed map, and then executed. On a carbureted engine, however, intake dynamics have a substantial effect of fuel metering (as described above). In the 60's this type of sealed cold air intake was a popular upgrade, and many were manufactured and sold with advertising like what you have referenced. However as you have experienced, the results were not always as expected, or claimed in the advertising. While the theory is sound - cooler air is denser air, denser air makes more power, ram air or air under pressure is denser and makes more power - the actual practical application is far more complex. Turbulence, inconsistent pressures and temperatures, varying humidity - all of these created an almost impossible tuning situation for anyone using true ram air intakes. Yes, racers did find it to be an effective tool, but in most cases those engines are tuned to run well within a very narrow powerband, greatly simplifying the necessary trial and error tuning of the intake and fuel metering.

For practical road use simply look the vehicle manufacturers. Hood scoops, ram air, fresh air - there were as many names as there were designs. But they all have key elements in common. All of these systems had some method of draining unwanted water from the intake system - usually baffles and drain holes within the fresh air plenums. These are still used today. Most also had some sort of manual cable or vacuum operated baffle to allow for underhood air to enter the system during engine warm up, primarily to prevent carb icing. (This is less of an issue today, but still occurs in some applications - hence the use of heated throttle bodies). Most importantly, however, is that every one of these factory "ram air" systems had a method to bleed off excessive pressure in the air intake system. How excessive? Lets just say any. For example the famed Chrysler hood mounted air boxes on the B-body cars were equipped with slots on the side covered with rubber flaps - flaps which would open at the slightest pressure above ambient. Ford, GM, and AMC systems all had similar ways to prevent pressure from actually building up in their "forced air" inlet systems. Why? Because with carburetor(s) the task of tuning to all possible variations of throttle position, load, inlet pressure, and temperature would be impossible. The mechanical carburetor simply cannot perform that degree of metering. Hell - a carb can't even compensate for altitude - how do you expect it to adjust for a road speed related change in intake pressure?

So the truth is that the manufacturers bowed to the popularity of "ram air" but never actually incorporated it. Instead they built functional and useable (and fun) cold air intake systems.

I suspect that if you hybridized your air filter housing to incorporate a properly shaped based, especially around the carb throats, installed a baffle at the end of the intake tube inside the air filter housing to distribute the airflow around the filer rather than directly into it, incorporated a movable baffle that not only closed the cold air inlet, but opened the intake to the area inside the engine compartment (preferably over one of the exhaust manifolds), and most importantly opened holes in the back or base of the air filer housing that would allow air coming into the housing to pass through, your performance issues would largely be eliminated. A little richening of the idle mixture, and possibly a minor change in jetting, would take advantage of the now available cooler air.

By no accident the set-up you would end up with would be very similar to that used on most cars in the mid to late 80's, right at the end of the carburetor era.


Gregg


Edited by LostDeere59 2020-03-26 2:28 PM
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1960fury
Posted 2020-03-26 4:08 PM (#596076 - in reply to #596068)
Subject: Re: Pre-FL Functional air scoop



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LostDeere59 - 2020-03-26 2:24 PM

Ford, GM, and AMC systems all had similar ways to prevent pressure from actually building up in their "forced air" inlet systems. Why? Because with carburetor(s) the task of tuning to all possible variations of throttle position, load, inlet pressure, and temperature would be impossible. The mechanical carburetor simply cannot perform that degree of metering. Hell - a carb can't even compensate for altitude - how do you expect it to adjust for a road speed related change in intake pressure?
Gregg


Well, it works for carbureted motorcycles for decades with a big, measurable power gain and it works for me for almost 30 years,
except when its really cold, I disconnect the tubes.
I couldn't wish for a better running car, and after about 170k miles with it, the engine still runs perfect at @330K miles with
a top speed of above 140 mph (conservative statement to avoid the usual comments), no malfunction or problems whatsoever,
except for a blown out a.c. housing seal (before I glued it to the hsg) at high speed, that made me feel the power loss without ram air.

Furthermore, blow thru (not draw thru) turbos/superchargers with carbs, that work at a MUCH higher pressure than a ram air
(don't know what they do with the power valves, there are special blow-thru carbs, but this is not a problem with r.a.), have been successfully used for over half a century.
There goes your theory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCTEdodRpWI

Edited by 1960fury 2020-03-26 4:38 PM
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LostDeere59
Posted 2020-03-26 6:13 PM (#596082 - in reply to #596076)
Subject: Re: Pre-FL Functional air scoop



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1960fury - 2020-03-26 4:08 PM

LostDeere59 - 2020-03-26 2:24 PM

Ford, GM, and AMC systems all had similar ways to prevent pressure from actually building up in their "forced air" inlet systems. Why? Because with carburetor(s) the task of tuning to all possible variations of throttle position, load, inlet pressure, and temperature would be impossible. The mechanical carburetor simply cannot perform that degree of metering. Hell - a carb can't even compensate for altitude - how do you expect it to adjust for a road speed related change in intake pressure?
Gregg


Well, it works for carbureted motorcycles for decades with a big, measurable power gain and it works for me for almost 30 years,
except when its really cold, I disconnect the tubes.
I couldn't wish for a better running car, and after about 170k miles with it, the engine still runs perfect at @330K miles with
a top speed of above 140 mph (conservative statement to avoid the usual comments), no malfunction or problems whatsoever,
except for a blown out a.c. housing seal (before I glued it to the hsg) at high speed, that made me feel the power loss without ram air.

Furthermore, blow thru (not draw thru) turbos/superchargers with carbs, that work at a MUCH higher pressure than a ram air
(don't know what they do with the power valves, there are special blow-thru carbs, but this is not a problem with r.a.), have been successfully used for over half a century.
There goes your theory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCTEdodRpWI



Pretty much exactly what I expected to hear.

I'll point out two things;

First, the motorcycles you refer to all use CV type carbs which function significantly differently that the automotive carbs we are discussing.
Second, you invalidate your own point about blow through carbs " (don't know what they do with the power valves, there are special blow-thru carbs, but this is not a problem with r.a.) " and even admit that you "don't know".

Frankly Sid I really don't care what you think about the information I offered - and neither does anyone else. I simply offered information I have experienced and gathered over the years to someone who seemed confused by his results. You are certainly welcome to provide your own experiences, but this attitude you have that you know everything about everything and feel compelled to "correct" every technical post on this board is both tiresome and childish. And honestly has completely erased any respect I had for you for the handful of things you do know.

Gregg




Edited by LostDeere59 2020-03-26 6:33 PM
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-03-26 7:48 PM (#596088 - in reply to #596068)
Subject: Re: Pre-FL Functional air scoop



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Thanks for posting that Gregg. Lots of info to digest.



Edited by 56D500boy 2020-03-26 7:56 PM
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1960fury
Posted 2020-03-27 8:20 AM (#596106 - in reply to #596082)
Subject: Re: Pre-FL Functional air scoop



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Pretty much exactly what I expected to hear.

I'll point out two things;

First, the motorcycles you refer to all use CV type carbs which function significantly differently that the automotive carbs we are discussing.
Second, you invalidate your own point about blow through carbs " (don't know what they do with the power valves, there are special blow-thru carbs, but this is not a problem with r.a.) " and even admit that you "don't know".

Frankly Sid I really don't care what you think about the information I offered - and neither does anyone else. I simply offered information I have experienced and gathered over the years to someone who seemed confused by his results. You are certainly welcome to provide your own experiences, but this attitude you have that you know everything about everything and feel compelled to "correct" every technical post on this board is both tiresome and childish. And honestly has completely erased any respect I had for you for the handful of things you do know.

Gregg



We are talking ram air, don't we? The motorcycle and blow thru I mentioned just to show that your statement "carburetors can't" is wrong. Fact.
Ram air does not operate nearly at the same pressure. You obviously do not know how a carburetor works, if you make such a claim.

Also, we have here your theory versus my real live experience driving a car with that system for almost 30 years, including daily driving for many years.
I really like it when a theorist, who actually has no experience at all, tells me that "it can't work". That is not the only car I converted to ram air.

The way you responded "nobody cares what I think" etc, is infantile, as you can't know but shows that if someone proves you wrong, it makes you act
like a child that lost a lollipop. Get over it and don't get personal.

That I (quote) "correct any technical post on this board" is simply not true. Lying to make someone else appear in a bad light to "win" an argument
is simply stupid and childish.

I never claimed to know everything and I even posted that in this thread, yet you claim I do. But the things I KNOW, based on real live experience
I post here, to help others. If you allow that?

Yes, I do not know the mods that are required for a blow-thru application, but I do know it works for many street-driven cars for 60 years.
That is all I need to know to prove your statement "carburetors can't" is wrong. Got it?

Call it bragging or childish, but I doubt there is anyone here, or on planet earth still alive that has more driving experience or more miles with these cars
than I have.
So if someone posts BS, I point it out. Is it that what you call "childish and tiresome"?

Again, get over it that someone dares to disagree with you and don't get personal.

Your last sentence "....And honestly has completely erased any respect I had for you for the handful of things you do know" I would like to give
back to you.

And lastly, Mr. Knowitall, here is a picture of a factory blow thru carb 57 Ford.



Edited by 1960fury 2020-03-27 6:26 PM




(1957_ford_thunderbird.jpg)



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mikes2nd
Posted 2020-03-27 11:39 AM (#596108 - in reply to #532535)
Subject: Re: Pre-FL Functional air scoop


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uh oh Sidds gonna call you a liberal Gregg...

I certainly like the experiment. I was joking when i said he would blow his engine, but i wasn't when i said it will change things, depending on speed it could run leaner.. i put the link to the extreme... Gregg your a more patient man than I...


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Powerflite
Posted 2020-03-27 11:59 AM (#596109 - in reply to #532535)
Subject: Re: Pre-FL Functional air scoop



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I'll throw my theory to the wind here. You've added quite a bit of turbulence to your intake stream. It takes pressure to overcome the negative effects of that turbulence. That means that there is a minimum speed at which you break even with this setup. To get any gain, you have to go faster than that. I suspect that you don't really see that benefit driving stop light to stop light, and it wouldn't surprise me that you would see a decline in performance in that range. To get the benefit from this you would need to run near freeway speeds.
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-03-27 1:56 PM (#596114 - in reply to #596109)
Subject: Re: Pre-FL Functional air scoop



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Okay. I will accept that it is possible that the air-fuel ration could be wrong (lean) if I drive the car "fast" (how fast? I don't know (I've only had it to 75 mph (one time) (on a "closed circuit, private track") (Nyuk, Nyuk))). O realize that it is not a modern fuel injection system with an air-flow meter and an O2 sensor feed back loop and a computer with a "map" inside to adjust fueling to meet the air flow and O2 sensor inputs.

I won't buy a turbulence issue. The run from the scoop to the air cleaner snorkle is all smooth long radius bends. The original air distribution baffle is still in the air cleaner so the air gets distributed around the circumference of the filter and the WIX filter element will straighten out the flow if there is any turbulence. Down into the carb is stock big block air cleaner (with about a 1" high spacer).









Edited by 56D500boy 2020-03-27 7:53 PM
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jboymechanic
Posted 2020-03-27 2:06 PM (#596115 - in reply to #532535)
Subject: Re: Pre-FL Functional air scoop



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Sid,

It's clear that you're passionate about these cars, that you're intelligent, you contribute to the forum and I trust and appreciate you opinion on all things 1960 Plymouth. However, I tire of reading an interesting discussion only for you to get into a fight with someone over just about anything. It's exhausting and frustrating so I'm not surprised by LostDeere59's response. Can you please find a more constructive way to disagree, for the sake of this forum and its readers?
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1960fury
Posted 2020-03-27 6:11 PM (#596124 - in reply to #596115)
Subject: Re: Pre-FL Functional air scoop



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jboymechanic - 2020-03-27 2:06 PM

Sid,

It's clear that you're passionate about these cars, that you're intelligent, you contribute to the forum and I trust and appreciate you opinion on all things 1960 Plymouth. However, I tire of reading an interesting discussion only for you to get into a fight with someone over just about anything. It's exhausting and frustrating so I'm not surprised by LostDeere59's response. Can you please find a more constructive way to disagree, for the sake of this forum and its readers?


Are you kidding? Please point out what was offensive about my initial post. It was clearly Gregg who made it personal. A more constructive way?
What else do you want than real live proof and information that shows his "carburetors can't" statement is wrong?
Do you need a lession about how carburetors work? My response couldn't have been more constructive.

Ok, here is my post (copied), that made Gregg post his insults and false accusations and THAT made me answer in an appropriate way.
Please point out exactly what was offensive or aggressive (me starting a fight?!) about it.

Well, it works for carbureted motorcycles for decades with a big, measurable power gain and it works for me for almost 30 years,
except when its really cold, I disconnect the tubes.
I couldn't wish for a better running car, and after about 170k miles with it, the engine still runs perfect at @330K miles with
a top speed of above 140 mph (conservative statement to avoid the usual comments), no malfunction or problems whatsoever,
except for a blown out a.c. housing seal (before I glued it to the hsg) at high speed, that made me feel the power loss without ram air.

Furthermore, blow thru (not draw thru) turbos/superchargers with carbs, that work at a MUCH higher pressure than a ram air
(don't know what they do with the power valves, there are special blow-thru carbs, but this is not a problem with r.a.), have been
successfully used for over half a century.
There goes your theory.



As you can read, I just disagreed with his opinion. What happened to this place? Have you all become drama queens and p****s?
Everyone that dares to disagree with someone is starting a fight? Is this a discussion board?

OK, I'm waiting for you answer, what was offensive about my post?







Edited by 1960fury 2020-03-27 6:16 PM
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-03-27 11:04 PM (#596136 - in reply to #596124)
Subject: Re: Pre-FL Functional air scoop



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Guys. WTF? There is zero need for an argument about this. I did what I did and I can always undo what I did. Not damage has been done and I had fun doing it.

I have four air different cleaners for my 315 hemi. The "Ram Air" that I made one is only but one of them. I might run it this summer and I might not. If I do, I will wisely *NOT* share anything with the forum for fear of starting a unnecessary sh*t storm.

We don't need any arguments amongst followers of the Forward Look during these trying times, just good thoughts and fellowship.

OKAY?

Stay safe and healthy.



Edited by 56D500boy 2020-03-27 11:05 PM
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1960fury
Posted 2020-03-28 8:40 AM (#596145 - in reply to #596136)
Subject: Re: Pre-FL Functional air scoop



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56D500boy - 2020-03-27 11:04 PM

.
Guys. WTF? There is zero need for an argument about this. I did what I did and I can always undo what I did. Not damage has been done and I had fun doing it.

I have four air different cleaners for my 315 hemi. The "Ram Air" that I made one is only but one of them. I might run it this summer and I might not. If I do, I will wisely *NOT* share anything with the forum for fear of starting a unnecessary sh*t storm.

We don't need any arguments amongst followers of the Forward Look during these trying times, just good thoughts and fellowship.

OKAY?

Stay safe and healthy.

:)


Agreed. If your engine was running on the lean side, it is possible the colder air leaned it out too much. If you have problems this, it got nothing to do with the ram effect. Your design will add VERY little, if any pressure at all, to the intake system.
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