The Forward Look Network
The Forward Look Network
Search | Statistics | User Listing Forums | Chat | eBay | Calendars | Albums | Skins | Language
You are logged in as a guest. ( logon | register )

Comments on Build cards from a Computer Science Professor
Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page]
View previous thread :: View next thread
   Forward Look Technical Discussions -> Fender/VIN Tag and Broadcast Sheet DecodingMessage format
 
56D500boy
Posted 2017-02-07 10:25 AM (#533423)
Subject: Comments on Build cards from a Computer Science Professor



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9854
5000200020005001001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
I was looking around the internet last night to see if I could find more info about the build card that I have received from Chrysler Historical. I even tried to figure out the punch holes and, in doing so, I found an article about Punch Cards written by Professor Douglas Jones, Ph.D. at the University of Iowa. ( http://homepage.divms.uiowa.edu/~jones/cards/codes.html ). I decided to contact him and sent this email with a copy of my build card:

"Professor Jones: I wonder whether you could help me with a small problem. I was trying to you use what you wrote about Punched cards ( http://homepage.divms.uiowa.edu/~jones/cards/codes.html) to figure out what was up with a 1956 Dodge production card from the Los Angeles plant circa 1956 (see attached pdf). I can't seem to figure it out and I can't tell if it is just because the card wasn't properly registered before the punching began or I've just lost my card reading skills. I'm old enough (65) that I used punch cards as an engineering undergraduate (1968-72) and then again when working on my Ph.D. at the University of Toronto (1979-82). In both cases, we were working in Fortran (I can't remember the version or the compiler). I don't know what language Chrysler plants used but I would have to guess Cobol. (??). All I know about the card is it is a copy from the microfiche records Chrysler has kept for some of their production cars and it is supposedly an "IBM" card. I'm hoping that you will be able to figure it out very easily. I am just trying to establish exactly which options the 1956 Dodge Custom Royal I bought in September actually was built with. Fingers crossed and hoping, David Forgie (retired guy)."

This morning, I had a reply email from Professor Jones:

"I have a special relationship to this card because one of my very first jobs was to write timesharing software to replace this kind of card for American Motors.

The basic procedure was that the salesman at the car dealer would fill out a paper form that detailed the make, model and options of the car he'd just sold. All of the options were described by numeric codes.

The filled sheets for the day's orders were (at various times) mailed or faxed to the company, where keypunch clerks transcribed them onto cards like the one you have.

The day's batch of cards for all dealers would then be sorted (using a card sorter) into batches according to body type and sent off to the different plants. (since each plant has a different mix of body types it's tooled up to make on its assembly line).

Then, at the plant, they'd run the deck through an accounting machine to create reports on the parts that were needed -- the inventory on hand had to be enough to manufacture all the cars in the deck, these reports were used to place orders for replacements.

A second set of reports would be generated at this step for each side assembly line saying to ready so many type 3 radios and so many type 9 engines.

Then, the card deck arrives at the head of the assembly line and one card is placed on the line describing the car that will be built in that slot on the line. The assembly line workers at each station looks at the card and then adds one widget of type X, as specified by the card. By the time the card reaches the far end of the line, the card has been slipped under the windshield wiper of the newly manufactured car, the serial number of the car has been stamped on the card, and a driver jumps into the car and drives it off to the place where cars destined to dealer 54506 are being parked awaiting shipping.

Along the way during this process, the card may be duplicated or run through other tabulation machines several times, but the card you have shows all the marks of having followed a car down the assembly line. It probably stayed with that car all the way back to the dealer. Note that this whole model of punched-card use was fully developed before computers were on the stage. It could all be done with unit-record tabulating machines and need not have involved computers. Given that this card is from 1956, this predates COBOL, and FORTRAN was a new product that year. It's unlikely that this card was ever processed by computer.

Now, as to card codes: The punch columns don't line up with the printing on much of the card. Only the printing on rows 8 and 9 is aligned with the punch columns. The printing on the top is aligned with the interpreter columns -- interpreters didn't print aligned with the punching, and to make things more difficult, the patchboard on the interpreter could rearrange things so the printing was completely rearranged from the punching. Decoding the card without documentation for the application is going to be very difficult.

Doug Jones
jones@cs.uiowa.edu"


Bottomline: I don't think that the card will never reveal all its secrets. Game over. Done.

Edited by 56D500boy 2017-02-07 3:03 PM




(DForgies56D500BuildCard_trimmed_small.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments DForgies56D500BuildCard_trimmed_small.jpg (235KB - 237 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Swept57
Posted 2017-02-07 10:44 AM (#533424 - in reply to #533423)
Subject: Re: Comments on Build cards from a Computer Science Professor



Expert

Posts: 1622
1000500100
Location: Seville, OH
Interesting to hear from someone familiar with the process. Thanks for posting!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
firedome
Posted 2017-02-07 11:36 AM (#533428 - in reply to #533423)
Subject: Re: Comments on Build cards from a Computer Science Professor



Expert

Posts: 3153
200010001002525
Location: NY & VT
Wow... brings back memories, not all good!
I worked in programming in COBOL at one of Baltimore's biggest backs in the '70s.
All the programs were punched onto 80 column punch cards using an IBM 029 card punch.
If you screwed up, no way to fix the wrong hole, you released the card and started all over.
It happened a lot when your program might create a card deck several inches or more thick!
You put a rubber band on that card deck and sent it via dumbwaiter to the big mainframe floors below and hoped the program compiled and ran.
Being a horrible typist I soon grew to hate it. When terminals first came on the scene, it was like going to heaven!
Eventually went on to teach Data Processing/Programming and never looked back...

Edited by firedome 2017-02-07 11:36 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2017-02-07 3:01 PM (#533450 - in reply to #533423)
Subject: RE: Comments on Build cards from a Computer Science Professor



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9854
5000200020005001001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
Based on his comments about the build car tucked under the windshield wiper, I email Professor Jones with a photo of my cowl tag and the tape mark that a build card was probably attached to at one point (see below).

Professor Jones replied:

"Nice. That tag would have been generated at some point along the assembly line where the card would be pulled from the line, run through a card reader attached to the build-tag embosser, and then the build tag screwed on and the card returned to its resting place on the under-construction car.

It looks like the tag was attached to the body before painting, so the card used here was probably not the one that rode with the car down the assembly line, but rather, the copy that went to the body sub-assembly-line. The painted body would be mated with the chassis after the engine was already in place. One of the workers would check to see that the card with the chassis matched the build tag on the body -- failure here would result in building a car that wasn't ordered, and could only occur if, somehow, the card deck delivered to the body line had cards that were out of order relative to the cards delivered to the chassis line. They were good at it and rarely made this kind of error, but if the error occurred, they'd pull the stop cord, and then hunt around to try to find the right chassis for the body on hand."


Now if we only knew what those codes corresponded to.





(DaveForgiesCustomRoyalD500CowlTag_Annotated_small.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments DaveForgiesCustomRoyalD500CowlTag_Annotated_small.jpg (205KB - 221 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Ev's62Chrysler
Posted 2017-02-07 11:22 PM (#533492 - in reply to #533423)
Subject: Re: Comments on Build cards from a Computer Science Professor



Veteran

Posts: 210
100100
Location: Suwanee, GA
Interesting information. Doug is right in that the majority of the punches are out of line (to the right) of the top row of numbers. The second row appears to be your option codes and seems to align with the description. There are more numbers in that row than shown on your fender tag (1, 2, 3, 4, and 8). Judging by my car, some of the extra ones may have been standard equipment required for the build card, but not the fender tag. See link below and notice that M1 = 8 on your tag and on the other M1 = 7. I'd guess that to be for the "City Traffic Carb" option, whatever choices there may have been.

I'm in a similar boat on with my 62 Chrysler in that I have four 2s on my fender tag and five 2s on the build card. I think one reason might be some standard features for the New Yorker are on the build card, but don't show on the fender tag as say a Newport might show (torqueflite trans, for example). I've figured out most, but not all positions on my fender tag. I've Googled other 62 fender tags just to read the text more clearly, plus i recorded a fender tag and options from a car I saw at Hershey 2015. Mine build card was straight forward to enter in Excel for clarity as the punches aligned with the descriptions. I did this for simplicity in understanding it. You just need to do some detective work to figure it out unless someone has a cross reference.

Robert

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=34245

Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2017-02-08 1:37 AM (#533498 - in reply to #533492)
Subject: Re: Comments on Build cards from a Computer Science Professor



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9854
5000200020005001001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
Thanks for the comments and the link. I never even met D500Neil and I miss him. I know he would help me (or I would help him) sort out these LA built D500 build cards.

What happened to D500Neil's archives when he passed? I hope somebody got that info from the estate.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
Chrycoman
Posted 2017-02-08 6:03 AM (#533505 - in reply to #533498)
Subject: Re: Comments on Build cards from a Computer Science Professor



Expert

Posts: 1819
1000500100100100
Location: Vancouver, BC

For this card from Los Angeles, the second row of typed numbers and descriptor columns have nothing to do with the bottom column numbers and their related hole punches.

The bottom column numbers are listed across the very top row.

Also, note the area labelled "Special Equipment Code" has no columns numbers listed, but they are numbered. And there are punch holes. More about these numbers later

To go through the column numbers (first two digits) with their punched holes (third digit) :

Dealer Number -
115
124
135
140
156

Plt. ???
162
173

Plt Dist
180
193

Order Number
200
211
220

Item
230
244

Body
258
263
275

Color
282
296
301

Trim
315
324
331

Special Equipment Codes
346
351
354
356
358
36
37
38
39
403
411
422
433
44
45
465
472

Upper Dr / Lower Paint
484
491
50

Add Code
51
52
53

Serial Number
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61

Special Order
62
63
64
65
66
67

Shipping Order
- Month
683
695
- Day
701
715
- Number
725
732
741
755

76
77
78
79
805

Now, look at the third numbers on the Special Equipment Codes and the types numbers just above the upper column descriptors. The only columns that do not make sense are 484 and 491. They look like they should be Special Equipment Codes.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
Chrycoman
Posted 2017-02-08 6:25 AM (#533508 - in reply to #533423)
Subject: Re: Comments on Build cards from a Computer Science Professor



Expert

Posts: 1819
1000500100100100
Location: Vancouver, BC
For the numbers 6 1 4 6 8 3 1 2 3 5 2 4 1 and their descriptor columns

6 - Not sure what this is. Cannot make out what column 10 is or what is under the "6" on the top left corner.

1 - Heavy Duty Suspension (351)
4 - Dome ??? Light (354)
6 - 20 Gallon Gas Tank (356)
8 - City Traffic Cars ? (358)
3 - Oil Filter Replacable (403)
1 - ??" Clutch (411)
2 - 11" Brakes (422)
3 - Silencer Package (433)
5 - Glove Box Lock (465)
2 - Extra Sun Visor (472)
4 - Outside Rear View Mirror (484??)
1 - Tires (491??)

The Los Angeles plant was under the direction of the Plymouth Division, as was the Evansville, Indiana, plant. Dodge ran the plant at El Segundo, but it was used only for the years 1949 to 1954. The Dodge Division used different codes for their options than the Plymouth Division, which might explain the confusing codes. Chrysler Corporation at this time was busy preparing for unibody body construction. This included having bodies made at all assembly plants and eliminating trucking bodies, removing the assembly plant from the divisions, have corporate engines not built by the divisions and have all divisions used the same sales codes. To do this Chrysler placed everything under a new body and assembly group. Which also helps to explain why the 1959 and up cards are so much easier to decode.



Edited by Chrycoman 2017-02-08 6:26 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2017-02-08 5:44 PM (#533547 - in reply to #533508)
Subject: Re: Comments on Build cards from a Computer Science Professor



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9854
5000200020005001001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
Bill: Thanks for both of your posts. The first one inspired my to better understand my build card. See below for my annotations on the build card. What is missing is mention of Power Steering and Power Brakes unless those were standard on the 56 Custom Royals (I don't think they were). I also think I have variable speed windshield wipers.

The dealer, E A Abbott in Anacortes, must have been dealer 54602

I think 23 = Plymouth Region and 03 = Plymouth District

I'm adding my comments in bold beside your comments

Chrycoman - 2017-02-08 6:25 AM
For the numbers 6 1 4 6 8 3 1 2 3 5 2 4 1 and their descriptor columns

6 - Not sure what this is. Cannot make out what column 10 is or what is under the "6" on the top left corner. I can't read what is below that first "6" either.

1 - Heavy Duty Suspension (351) This is the one I hoped for but I am not convinced that I got it - only 5 leaf rear springs, not 6

4 - Dome ??? Light (354) Yes, I have a dome light

6 - 20 Gallon Gas Tank (356) I guess, never filled it up from empty. 20 US gal =75.6 L

8 - City Traffic Cars ? (358) I think that is City Traffic Carb(uretor) which is weird. I am pretty sure I got the normal D500 carb

3 - Oil Filter Replaceable (403) Yes

1 - ??" Clutch (411) Makes no sense - has a Powerflite transmission

2 - 11" Brakes (422) Makes no sense. I have the 12" x 2.5" Chrysler Windsor brakes

3 - Silencer Package (433) has dual exhaust like all Custom Royals. Down pipes are 2" which was standard on the D500s

5 - Glove Box Lock (465) Yes

2 - Extra Sun Visor (472) If by extra they mean passenger side also, the Yes

4 - Outside Rear View Mirror (484??) Yes I have both left and right side outside mirrors

1 - Tires (491??) Who knows what it came with 61 years ago

I have annotated the build card for my own understanding to show how each of the punches is represented as printed numbers as well:



(DForgies56D500BuildCard_AlignedAndNotated_small.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments DForgies56D500BuildCard_AlignedAndNotated_small.jpg (155KB - 225 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Chrycoman
Posted 2017-02-08 11:55 PM (#533576 - in reply to #533423)
Subject: Re: Comments on Build cards from a Computer Science Professor



Expert

Posts: 1819
1000500100100100
Location: Vancouver, BC

Glad you were able to figure it all out! These earlier IBM cards make great brain teasers.

Found another IBM card for a 1956 Dodge from LA that is clearer on the left side. The right is not much better which probably means the camera was not set up right when they were photographing the cards.

Went through the list and have these updates -


4 - Dome ??? Light - Actually is it for dome light switches on the rear doors.

3 - Oil Filter Replaceable (403) Yes

2 - 11" Brakes (422) - Looking at the card, the last preprinted digit on the card is "3". So, 423 would be for 11" brakes and 422 might be for 12" brakes

1 - Tires (491??) - When I first saw this one, it took me back to when I was taking computer courses in the 1980's, including COBOL programming. Usually the number assigned to "Yes" was "1" and "No" was "2". So, when I first saw "Tires" with "1", it was "Yes, it's got tires". The things that go through your mind at 3 AM.

Going to start a list of the codes and equipment based on the 1955 and 1956 cards I can find on the forum.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2017-02-09 12:26 AM (#533579 - in reply to #533576)
Subject: Re: Comments on Build cards from a Computer Science Professor



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9854
5000200020005001001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
Thanks for the further updates Bill. It took me awhile to figure out (well, actually, see) the column numbers at the bottom of the card. Then your first post made more sense (okay complete sense).

As for what the actual codes mean, yes, somebody needs to compile the data on those. It seems Chrysler Historical isn't.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
LD3 Greg
Posted 2017-02-10 12:18 AM (#533659 - in reply to #533579)
Subject: Re: Comments on Build cards from a Computer Science Professor


Expert

Posts: 1906
1000500100100100100
Location: Ontario, Canada
In the case of Dodges, 57 for example, I had always thought that the IBM card provided the sales order info, and, as such it was able to generate the broadcast sheets. It was these sheets that were produced in large quantities that, sort of, accompanied the car down the assembly line to be sure the car was built/optioned as ordered and eventually would be invoiced as ordered.

I understand that the professor gave a generic response but I would be interested in his response regarding " Production Broadcast Sheets" in general.

Greg
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2017-02-10 1:20 AM (#533662 - in reply to #533659)
Subject: Re: Comments on Build cards from a Computer Science Professor



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9854
5000200020005001001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
LD3 Greg - 2017-02-10 12:18 AM I understand that the professor gave a generic response but I would be interested in his response regarding " Production Broadcast Sheets" in general.
Greg


This morning (Thurs) I sent him a photos of a Hemi Superbird broadcast sheet and the annotated version of my build card, to see if he had comments on either. He commented on the annotated build card and was silent on the broadcast sheet. I'm not going to bother him further. He's help me (us) enough.

Dave F

Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2017-02-10 11:00 AM (#533679 - in reply to #533423)
Subject: Re: Comments on Build cards from a Computer Science Professor



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 13042
500050002000100025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Thread moved due to members request. This is the correct place for decoding threads. This will also make it easier to find for future searches.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2017-02-10 11:24 AM (#533683 - in reply to #533679)
Subject: Re: Comments on Build cards from a Computer Science Professor



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9854
5000200020005001001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
wizard - 2017-02-10 11:00 AM
Thread moved due to members request. This is the correct place for decoding threads. This will also make it easier to find for future searches.


Sorry. I didn't see the Fender/VIN Tag and Broadcast Sheet Decoding forum when I initially started this thread. Thanks for moving it.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page]
Jump to forum :
Search this forum
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread

* * * This site contains affiliate links for which we may be compensated * * *


(Delete all cookies set by this site)