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Anybody recognize these strange 315 hemi valve lash adjusters?
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-06-03 10:42 AM (#541453)
Subject: Anybody recognize these strange 315 hemi valve lash adjusters?



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This is what I am staring at now that I have both valve covers off, stripped and repainted.

Apparently the adjusters are hollow and use friction to stay in place (the nut is part of the adjuster and NOT the lock nut).



Edited by 56D500boy 2017-06-03 10:44 AM




(DForgies565D500EngineValveTrain_RightBank1-3-5-7_1.jpg)



(DForgies565D500EngineValveTrain_RightBank1-3-5-7_2.jpg)



(DForgies565D500EngineValveTrain_RightBank1-3-5-7_3.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments DForgies565D500EngineValveTrain_RightBank1-3-5-7_1.jpg (167KB - 45 downloads)
Attachments DForgies565D500EngineValveTrain_RightBank1-3-5-7_2.jpg (112KB - 45 downloads)
Attachments DForgies565D500EngineValveTrain_RightBank1-3-5-7_3.jpg (146KB - 44 downloads)
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57chizler
Posted 2017-06-05 3:05 PM (#541568 - in reply to #541453)
Subject: RE: Anybody recognize these strange 315 hemi valve lash adjusters?



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The adjuster threads are an interference fit so they need no jam nuts. Common on lots of Mopar engines, not sure if they're original in an early Hemi.
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-06-05 3:32 PM (#541570 - in reply to #541568)
Subject: RE: Anybody recognize these strange 315 hemi valve lash adjusters?



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Posts: 2177
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Location: Lower Mainland BC
57chizler - 2017-06-05 3:05 PM
The adjuster threads are an interference fit so they need no jam nuts. Common on lots of Mopar engines, not sure if they're original in an early Hemi.


Okay. thanks. Seems strange but...

Just bought an 1.25" Deep socket so I will now be able to turn the engine by hand (with the socket and my torque wrench/rachet) and start doing the adjustments (checking).

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56D500boy
Posted 2017-06-12 2:00 PM (#541986 - in reply to #541570)
Subject: RE: Anybody recognize these strange 315 hemi valve lash adjusters?



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Posts: 2177
2000100252525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
56D500boy - 2017-06-05 3:32 PM
57chizler - 2017-06-05 3:05 PM
The adjuster threads are an interference fit so they need no jam nuts. Common on lots of Mopar engines, not sure if they're original in an early Hemi.

Okay. thanks. Seems strange but... Just bought an 1.25" Deep socket so I will now be able to turn the engine by hand (with the socket and my torque wrench/rachet) and start doing the adjustments (checking).
:)


Okay, over the weekend I went around the valve adjustment world, 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 (actually 1-8-4 the Friday day and 3-6-5-7 the Saturday day (yesterday) and then a check on 5 and 2 Sunday) and then I started back at 1 (to check it) and then back to 8 which I had left because there was a weird issue with No. 8 intake. I think I've got it more or less okay. Exhaust is fine. But tere is a strange issue with the No. 8 intake. It seems "spongy". I took the adjuster screw noted in my first photos right out to check it but then I felt the top of the push rod and it felt like the top cone was going to fall off. I know I bought some new adjusters from a FL forum member but I can't find them on a quick search (DUH). Regardless, I am going to remove the No. 8 intake adjuster again and, while holding the cone on the push rod, use a Q-tip to clean out the inside of the cone before re-installing the adjuster. Then I will check things on 8 again and move on to the final check on No. 3. (The rest I am comfortable with now) None of them were bad. Just a little out. It is amazing how little a rotation of the adjusting bolt makes on the clearance.

It has been suggested that I might want to take the push rod out and inspect it. I presume that if I remove the adjuster screw I will be able to slide the rocker arm out of the way (against the spring) enough to pull out the push rod.

The top of the rod seems to have a cone that spins but that doesn't show in the parts diagram.





Edited by 56D500boy 2017-06-12 2:02 PM




(EarlyHemiValveTrainPartsDiagram.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments EarlyHemiValveTrainPartsDiagram.jpg (230KB - 39 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-06-13 1:51 AM (#542014 - in reply to #541986)
Subject: RE: Anybody recognize these strange 315 hemi valve lash adjusters?



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56D500boy - 2017-06-12 2:00 PM
It has been suggested that I might want to take the push rod out and inspect it. I presume that if I remove the adjuster screw I will be able to slide the rocker arm out of the way (against the spring) enough to pull out the push rod.
The top of the rod seems to have a cone that spins but that doesn't show in the parts diagram.



Okay. Removed the D500 No. 8 intake adjuster. Slid the rocker arm towards the spring (towards the back of the engine) and then carefully removed the intake push rod. Discovered that the top "cone" is a separate piece that just sits in the inside of the hollow push rod. Found the NOS D500 adjuster screws that Dave S. sold me (thanks Dave) and was ready to put everything back. I put the push rod in first, without the cone/cup and immediately felt the source of the sponginess. Seems like there is a spring down there. Doesn't make any sense so I am very confused and quit for the night. I felt no other sponginess when I adjusted the other 15 valves and there is nothing in the parts diagram that makes sense. The only thought is when the engine was rebuilt (long ago) somebody slipped a hydraulic lifter in there by mistake. I really have no idea. Hope somebody does.

Here are some of the relevant photos:



Edited by 56D500boy 2017-06-13 1:57 AM




(EarlyHemiCrossSection_small.jpg)



(56D500HemiPushRodAndAdjuster_1.jpg)



(56D500HemiPushRodAndAdjuster_2.jpg)



(56D500HemiPushRodAndAdjuster_3.jpg)



(56D500HemiPushRodAndAdjuster_4.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments EarlyHemiCrossSection_small.jpg (159KB - 40 downloads)
Attachments 56D500HemiPushRodAndAdjuster_1.jpg (142KB - 36 downloads)
Attachments 56D500HemiPushRodAndAdjuster_2.jpg (153KB - 34 downloads)
Attachments 56D500HemiPushRodAndAdjuster_3.jpg (118KB - 35 downloads)
Attachments 56D500HemiPushRodAndAdjuster_4.jpg (121KB - 35 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-06-13 11:42 AM (#542034 - in reply to #542014)
Subject: RE: Anybody recognize these strange 315 hemi valve lash adjusters?



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Location: Lower Mainland BC
I just got off the phone with the son of the local early hemi expert (Mike Frey, son of Norm Frey) and described the spongy/springy feeling at the end of the No. 8 intake push rod. I suggested that I suspect that there is a hydraulic lifter down there and he didn't disagree. He said that it shouldn't be there and I said I know. We agreed that I need to adjust that one based on the hydraulic lifter specs, i.e. effectively zero lash.

Fingers crossed. I want to get this thing back together and running again.

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57chizler
Posted 2017-06-13 1:43 PM (#542043 - in reply to #542034)
Subject: RE: Anybody recognize these strange 315 hemi valve lash adjusters?



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Location: NorCal

When using adjustable rockers with hydraulic lifters the usual drill is to tighten the adjuster to zero backlash and then tighten it another 1/4-1/2 turn....this preloads the lifter.
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-06-13 1:51 PM (#542047 - in reply to #542043)
Subject: RE: Anybody recognize these strange 315 hemi valve lash adjusters?



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Location: Lower Mainland BC
57chizler - 2017-06-13 1:43 PM
When using adjustable rockers with hydraulic lifters the usual drill is to tighten the adjuster to zero backlash and then tighten it another 1/4-1/2 turn....this preloads the lifter.


I didn't mention it but Mike F. did say 1/4" turn after zero. So based on your additional comments (thanks), that is what I will do.

Sure hope that there really is a hydraulic lifter down there (for unknown but must be stupid reasons).

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Powerflite
Posted 2017-06-13 2:58 PM (#542055 - in reply to #541453)
Subject: Re: Anybody recognize these strange 315 hemi valve lash adjusters?



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On all of my adjustable push rods on Chrysler hemis, that cone is press-fit into the end of the push rod. It looks like your push rod is mushroomed out, which isn't good. And the fact that it is loose is also not good. I would bet that someone didn't want to replace the pushrod, so to "fix" it, they installed the hydraulic lifter in there to cushion the hit and make it run that way. If it were mine, I would call Hot Heads or Kanter and try to get a replacement push rod to stick in there. If you really punch it and your valve floats, that end piece could end up coming out, and you could have real problems. But if you just cruise around in it, you may never experience an issue.
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wayfarer
Posted 2017-06-14 1:34 PM (#542126 - in reply to #541453)
Subject: Re: Anybody recognize these strange 315 hemi valve lash adjusters?



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...if it were mine, I'd be pulling the top off to have a look-see at all of the related parts. Something isn't 'right' and it sounds as though you do not have any detailed info on the engine details.
The pushrod is obviously damaged and hydraulic lifters rarely display 'sponginess'.
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-06-14 2:02 PM (#542131 - in reply to #542126)
Subject: Re: Anybody recognize these strange 315 hemi valve lash adjusters?



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Location: Lower Mainland BC
Powerflite - 2017-06-13 2:58 PM
On all of my adjustable push rods on Chrysler hemis, that cone is press-fit into the end of the push rod. It looks like your push rod is mushroomed out, which isn't good. And the fact that it is loose is also not good. I would bet that someone didn't want to replace the pushrod, so to "fix" it, they installed the hydraulic lifter in there to cushion the hit and make it run that way. If it were mine, I would call Hot Heads or Kanter and try to get a replacement push rod to stick in there. If you really punch it and your valve floats, that end piece could end up coming out, and you could have real problems. But if you just cruise around in it, you may never experience an issue.



wayfarer - 2017-06-14 1:34 PM
...if it were mine, I'd be pulling the top off to have a look-see at all of the related parts. Something isn't 'right' and it sounds as though you do not have any detailed info on the engine details.
The pushrod is obviously damaged and hydraulic lifters rarely display 'sponginess'.


I appreciate both your comments and will, at some point pull the intake manifold on this likely rebuilt engine (of unknown origin, but blue not silver, but well over 25 years ago when it was parked at 119,426 miles after an oil change in 1992 at 119,250 miles). But that will be a winter project.

The engine was running fine before I removed the valve covers to strip and paint them, which turned into a "While I am there, I might as well (MAW) check/adjust the valves). There was nothing to make me suspect that there was one non-solid lifter in the game.

I am not sure if the push rod was "obviously damaged". The cone did spin the hollow pushrod and would come out so yes, it wasn't correct. As a short term fix, I RED Loctited the cone into the tube yesterday and reinstalled the pushrod with a new old stock adjuster late yesterday afternoon. I am just going out to the garage now to see if I can come to an adjustment that I will be happy with (for now).

I will need to source the 315 D500 hemi-specific push rod(s) and solid lifter sometime before the fall. I am reluctant to go after the issue now because I know that at least one of the intake bolts will snap off, opening up yet another (and BIG) can of worms. No thanks. Not right now. It's summer and I want to drive the car again. I won't be hammering on it, just crusing. Probably limit the RPMs to under 4500 max. (I bought a tacometer for this reason).





Edited by 56D500boy 2017-06-14 2:02 PM
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wayfarer
Posted 2017-06-16 11:30 AM (#542273 - in reply to #541453)
Subject: Re: Anybody recognize these strange 315 hemi valve lash adjusters?



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Pushrods and lifters are easy but you really need to know what you have and not just throw parts at it.
Rebuilds are expensive but physical damage can result in even more so. Do it right-do it once.
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-06-16 4:15 PM (#542296 - in reply to #542273)
Subject: Re: Anybody recognize these strange 315 hemi valve lash adjusters?



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Location: Lower Mainland BC
wayfarer - 2017-06-16 11:30 AM Pushrods and lifters are easy but you really need to know what you have and not just throw parts at it.
Rebuilds are expensive but physical damage can result in even more so. Do it right-do it once.


Thanks I hear you but...What I am reading is you are setting me up for an "I told you so" if I don't immediately tear down the engine and do a complete rebuild it to blue-print tolerances and there is a failure.

I would have appreciated some advice dealing with my situation that doesn't include such measures, i.e. how to adjust that one odd lifter.

Time will tell.

Engine was running fine (enough) before I removed the valve covers to paint them.

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wayfarer
Posted 2017-06-17 11:59 AM (#542352 - in reply to #541453)
Subject: Re: Anybody recognize these strange 315 hemi valve lash adjusters?



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Nah, you mis-read my intention. I really don't care what you do with your engine so no "I told you so" from me.
Although I am in the business of building EarlyHemi engines and selling parts, I am just as likely to try and talk a potential customer out of planned purchase if it appears that he is wasting money and/or really needs something entirely different. These engines, as well as most v-8s from the 1950's, are expensive to buy or rebuild so I am of the belief that if you do it once and do it right you will be money ahead even if it is bloody expensive to do in the first place.
There are very few engines that will provide a long service life with bandaids. Sometimes surgery is warranted. And, if you use a box of bandaids just to get a car ready to sell.......well, another subject I suppose.
In your case, you have an odd pile-o-parts that, in my humble opinion, needs proper repair because it appears that the previous owner used a box of bandaids. Do you even know, absolutely, that the rest of the lifters are of the solid/mechanical variety? I will say again that functioning hydraulic lifters do not produce any 'sponginess' as you have described so if the rest are of the same style then adventure awaits. Same deal with the pushrods; they are designed for a pressed fit and often soldered but you have one that is obviously damaged. ...and red Loctite will not fix it. So, are the other 15 in similar condition?
Having adjustable rockers only means that you have adjustable rockers. We routinely use custom rockers on hydraulic cams for pre-load adjustment so that, by itself, is not an indication of a mechanical camshaft.
What ever you do, shortcuts included, I do wish you luck.
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