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whats more rare
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   Forward Look NON-Technical Discussions -> 1955-1961 Forward Look MoPar General DiscussionMessage format
 
w.weiland
Posted 2017-08-15 6:12 AM (#546226)
Subject: whats more rare


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Location: Lordstown, Ohio
the 60 sonoramic belvedere factory 383 3spd i have or a 59 adventurer 2 door hardtop
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Sonoramic60
Posted 2017-08-15 9:22 AM (#546235 - in reply to #546226)
Subject: RE: whats more rare


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Wayne --
I would suggest you check Darrell Davis' book on the '60 ram Plymouths. He has them all listed by VIN and option, so that would give you an idea at least about that line.
Joe Godec
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59 explorer
Posted 2017-08-15 9:45 AM (#546237 - in reply to #546226)
Subject: Re: whats more rare


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602 1959 Adventurer 2 door hardtops
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w.weiland
Posted 2017-08-15 12:05 PM (#546249 - in reply to #546235)
Subject: RE: whats more rare


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Sonoramic60 - 2017-08-15 9:22 AM

Wayne --
I would suggest you check Darrell Davis' book on the '60 ram Plymouths. He has them all listed by VIN and option, so that would give you an idea at least about that line.
Joe Godec

Its documented 1of 47
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1960fury
Posted 2017-08-15 1:52 PM (#546259 - in reply to #546226)
Subject: Re: whats more rare



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1 out of 47 with a 383/stick? more like one of one. i'm not an expert but from what i read (in old car magazines) the manual 3 speed was officially not available with the 383 sono. of course we're dealing with mopars, so that doesn't mean alot, i heard about factory 413 60 plymouths.


Edited by 1960fury 2017-08-15 1:54 PM
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Sonoramic60
Posted 2017-08-15 5:57 PM (#546289 - in reply to #546259)
Subject: Re: whats more rare


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Sid --
Until fairly recently, I thought like you that the SonoRamic Commando was available only with the TorqueFlite. However, when Darrell went through the Chrysler production records, he found four ram 361s with 3-speed manuals were produced out of a total production of 881, but of the 692 ram-inducted 383 CIDs, 236 had the T-85 three-speed manual. Most of the ram cars, manual- or TorqueFlite-equipped, were Furys, but every model and body style could be, and was had, with a SonoRamic Commando.
Back in the day, all the automotive magazines and dealer brochures were insistent that the TorqueFlite was the only trans available with the SonoRamic Commando, so I thought that as well. Out here in the backwoods of Colorado, I never did see a manual SonoRamic, but I did tangle with Belvie 2-dr H/T with the "three-on-the-tree" and the single 4V carb 383/325 hp mill. From what I remember, that T-85 was a bearcat to speed shift with all that linkage, so the guy ended up putting a Hurst floor unit on it. I believe that both the availability of the manual tranny and the 383 engine itself were driven by dealer pressure. The Plymouth brass was very staid back then and any hint of race potential was definitely not in the image they wanted to present to either the suburban family or the fleet buyer.
Wayne --
Does that car still have the column-mounted gear shift lever?
I would have to say the '60 Belvedere is more rare than the '59 Adventurer, but the '59 Adventurer would easily command more market value -- all things considered.
Joe
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w.weiland
Posted 2017-08-15 8:03 PM (#546302 - in reply to #546289)
Subject: Re: whats more rare


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Wayne --
Does that car still have the column-mounted gear shift lever?
I would have to say the '60 Belvedere is more rare than the '59 Adventurer, but the '59 Adventurer would easily command more market value -- all things considered.
Joe

Joe
I have every bit of the manual shift stuff. the column, tube, linkage,lame steering wheel and so on. I am really debating on selling it. But not real sure just yet. I know its a very unique car to say the lease. but I am very torn on what to really do. I have several people that are very interested in it. But as 1 guy told me, that will be the rarest MOPAR you may ever own.
http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=21735

Edited by w.weiland 2017-08-15 8:08 PM
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2017-08-15 8:23 PM (#546305 - in reply to #546302)
Subject: Re: whats more rare



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Own the car you love and ignore the rest of the "input". There are a lot
of rare cars that are ugly or just plain duds. Just because they are rare is
no reason to own them !
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60 dart
Posted 2017-08-15 11:46 PM (#546321 - in reply to #546226)
Subject: Re: whats more rare



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pretty much no such thing as mopar never made it . as i've stated before , there was an older man in my home town who drove a 52 chevy til it'd run no more . he wanted a new imperial but the
only way he'd buy one is if it were a column shift manual . in 1968 he got his wish . a 68 imperial 3 speed manual column shift . talking to him it was no big deal to order it -------------------------later
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Sonoramic60
Posted 2017-08-16 12:30 PM (#546339 - in reply to #546302)
Subject: Re: whats more rare


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Wayne --
From those pics, it really looks like a neat car and it would probably run my Big-Tailed Beast into the ground. I wouldn't mind having it at all.
However, while to the extent I am more or less a purist at heart, I think if it were mine, I'd keep the stock linkage in storage and leave the floor shift in. If I could dig up some Hedman Hedders, I'd put them on and tap the exhaust pipes for some "Lakes Plugs." I'd even pull the skirts and go for some baby moons or even have the wheels chromed and reversed. It wouldn't be "factory correct" but it sure would be "period correct" and would be an excellent representation of a fairly serious drag car in the early 60s. There are some guys in the national Plymouth Owners Club that would have a stroke at such iconic blasphemy, but they are the guys that go bananas at late 30s and early 50s flathead sixes and have never even seen a dragstrip, much less been on one. I suppose the DeSoto guys as well are coiling their ropes and boiling tar, but that Belvie holds more interest for me than the '59 Adventurer (which by then had lost a lot of the luster of the '57, even with the 350 HP/383). That really is an intriguing car!
Joe
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2017-08-16 9:01 PM (#546370 - in reply to #546339)
Subject: Re: whats more rare



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I like the X-ram Belvedere because it ISN'T a Fury ! Very unusual.

The Adventurer has the 1959 Mopar curse and is utterly predictable.

If the only options here are these two, I'd be all over the Belvedere.
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w.weiland
Posted 2017-08-17 6:07 AM (#546389 - in reply to #546226)
Subject: Re: whats more rare


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all points well taken, and pretty much as i thought. thanks again
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58coupe
Posted 2017-08-17 9:56 AM (#546401 - in reply to #546226)
Subject: Re: whats more rare



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Not exactly the same car, but I owned a 60 Belvedere 2 door sedan that was a factory 361 GC single 4 and 3 speed T-85 column shift. I thought it shifted good with the stock linkage. Sadly I wrecked it and that running gear went into a 57 Fury with a Hurst floor shift.
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Greg P.
Posted 2017-08-17 12:22 PM (#546408 - in reply to #546226)
Subject: RE: whats more rare



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I've been thinking about this. It's not the worst problem one could have. Both cars are just so cool and I'd personally love to own either one some day.

A few ways to approach this. The initial question was which one is more rare? Truth is, both are very rare cars with low production figures. it also depends on how finely you parse the numbers. The numbers get very low when you consider the number of Sonoramic Belvederes and even lower if you think about how few came equipped with the manual trans.

Production figures aside, it's worth considering how many actually survived and exist today. From what I've seen I believe the Adventurers (and the 300s) have a much higher survival rate (percentage) than any of the other models. They were "special" cars when new and many people recognized that. Even in the darkest days of FL popularity, owners were more likely to stash one away in a barn or garage, rather than send it to the crusher.

On the other hand, the sonoramic cars, while still special, seem less likely to survive. It does seem like a high number of owners plucked the intake manifolds before sending the cars to the crusher. You can see that by the number of long rams that are for sale at any time, and also the high number of non-original ram installs. Did anyone else notice that half the FL cars at Carlisle this summer had dual quads? I'm exaggerating of course, but still, quite a few.

In any case... as Doc said, '59 Adventurers are entirely predictable. Awesome cars, but predictable. While few were made, they come up for sale at auction on a somewhat regular basis and most are similarly equipped. The plus side is that their value is well established. If you have an eye on selling in the future, it's a pretty sure bet what the market is for these cars and you can be sure there will be interested buyers.

Documented Sonoramic manual-equipped Belvederes? It's fairly safe bet that none of us will ever see another one like this. So if you really like this car, you may not want to let it go.
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Sonoramic60
Posted 2017-08-17 9:00 PM (#546441 - in reply to #546408)
Subject: RE: whats more rare


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Wayne --
Keep us posted on this. It really is a neat subject.
Joe
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w.weiland
Posted 2017-08-17 9:40 PM (#546442 - in reply to #546441)
Subject: RE: whats more rare


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Location: Lordstown, Ohio
Sonoramic60 - 2017-08-17 9:00 PM

Wayne --
Keep us posted on this. It really is a neat subject.
Joe


Well Joe its like this. I really think that this car is a freak surviour. Meaning on that did not get trashed or scrapped. I really think it would be quite stunning when done and not only that if what my research proves to be accurate ( meaning the only 1 known to exist out of the 47 produced). It could become verydesirable. BUT as i said in previius theeads. I would trade it for a 57/9 convertible. Would someone ever step up to that....... who knows but until then it will remain inside a heated garage as a very nice shelf
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Sonoramic60
Posted 2017-08-18 9:52 PM (#546513 - in reply to #546442)
Subject: RE: whats more rare


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Wayne --
Doggone it, that's the story of my life: a day late and a dollar short. Just about this time last year, I committed to buying a '65 Sport Fury. I dearly love this '65 because it's the virtual twin to the one I had back in 1964-1967, but it would have been a tough choice to have to make if your Belvie and that Sport Fury were on the market together. Boy, I really hope you can do something with it or trade it for that ragtop you want.
Joe
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