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Modern starters
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hemidenis
Posted 2017-08-15 11:41 PM (#546319)
Subject: Modern starters



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I would like to know if some is making modern starters for BB mopars (361-383-413) with the 56-61 torqueflite. I'm quite tired of the slow cranking original starter.

Thanks!
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mikes2nd
Posted 2017-08-16 12:24 AM (#546326 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: Re: Modern starters


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do you have one threaded bolt hole and the other not?




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60 dart
Posted 2017-08-16 4:46 AM (#546328 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: Re: Modern starters



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i have a 69 , 383 rebuilt starter from rockauto that will turns over nice and fast and they are relatively cheap . i'd say its as fast as a mini or even faster . ------------------------------------------lateer
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hemidenis
Posted 2017-08-16 5:04 PM (#546354 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: Re: Modern starters



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thank u Chuck! this is what they have for sale for a 383 1969 Chrysler now.



(336-1044_Primary__ra_p.jpg)



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Phatton
Posted 2017-08-16 8:43 PM (#546368 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: Re: Modern starters


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I had slow cranking on my 1960 dart 318 - cleaned the battery posts, ground and starter contacts and increased the wire size from the battery to ground and to the starter - made a big difference - starter cranks well now.
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mikes2nd
Posted 2017-08-16 10:09 PM (#546375 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: Re: Modern starters


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that 69 dodge charger ACDelco remanufactured starter is 43$ at rock auto. I picked up a lightweight mopar starter for 66$.

It says it fits my 392 hemi, we will see.
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58coupe
Posted 2017-08-17 9:37 AM (#546400 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: Re: Modern starters



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Pictured is the geared starter that is for the newer aluminum torqflites and will not fit the cast iron TFs.
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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2017-08-17 1:41 PM (#546414 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: Re: Modern starters



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Indeed. The type of transmission dictates which starter is used.
I would've thought that would be common knowledge by now, even from the earlier members.

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Powerflite
Posted 2017-08-17 2:25 PM (#546416 - in reply to #546414)
Subject: Re: Modern starters



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Chrysler starters have always confused me. From what I have read '51-'55 6volt & '56 12volt V8 are different from '57-'59. Are '60-'61 different still? Are there differences with big block vs. small block vs. six vs. slant six? Differences between '60 Valiant aluminum 904 starter vs '62 or '63 904 starter? Truck vs. car? '62-'64 isn't any easier to figure out. There are so many different starter versions that it can hurt your head. Does anyone have it all figured out? If so, please educate me.
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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2017-08-17 4:27 PM (#546423 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: Re: Modern starters



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I've only delt with '60s bigblocks, a Chrysler '57 354ci poly and '57 392ci hemi and more recently a smallblock. All automatics and 12v systems.
Starter-type is pretty simple with these:
Aluminium transmissions ('62 and newer) use the 'regular/most common' mid '60s-and-up gear-reduction starters, while the cast iron automatic transmissions use the predecessor non-reduction starters.
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57chizler
Posted 2017-08-17 4:43 PM (#546426 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: RE: Modern starters



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A modern gear-reduction starter to fit the straight-drive bellhousings:

http://www.qualitypowerauto.com/item_600/Chrysler-Dodge-Starter--Ol...
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-08-17 4:59 PM (#546429 - in reply to #546426)
Subject: RE: Modern starters



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According to them:

Chrysler 1949-1958 with 146 tooth flywheel (122-001)
Chrysler 1957-1958 Hemi with 172 tooth flywheel (122-002)
Chrysler 1956-1958 non Hemi (122-015)
Chrysler 1959-1960 non Hemi (126-001)

All use a different starter, partly depending on the flywheel count and partly depending on hemi vs non-hemi?? I know from 71charger_fan's and other's experience that '56 starters won't directly bolt into '55 applications without swapping parts so some of this info can be misleading.
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hemidenis
Posted 2017-08-17 8:03 PM (#546439 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: Re: Modern starters



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Thanks for the help guys, all my starters always crank beautifully when it's cold but it's slow when hot.

Starters are a discussion for a book, and I know about them only by experience with my 3 engines 361-413-392, outside of that they are unknown to me... It is also a fact that the manual trans cars are also equipped with a different starters adding more variants. The parts manuals are also a mess with hundred of different part numbers that achieve the exact same purpose.

Interchangeability of the starter is not common knowledge for me Herman, even though I have 9 more years than you in here. I've never asked about them before because I like to stick to the original stuff, but some things like the ignition, alternator, carburetor and now the starter are things that I don't care about as long as the car is more reliable.

The idea of a forum like this is based on asking about issues we don't know anything about, besides manufacturers are always making new things, who knows one day maybe someone will offer a high-torque starter for the TF.
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57chizler
Posted 2017-08-18 1:25 PM (#546480 - in reply to #546429)
Subject: RE: Modern starters



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Powerflite - 2017-08-17 1:59 PM

According to them:

Chrysler 1949-1958 with 146 tooth flywheel (122-001)
Chrysler 1957-1958 Hemi with 172 tooth flywheel (122-002)
Chrysler 1956-1958 non Hemi (122-015)
Chrysler 1959-1960 non Hemi (126-001)

All use a different starter,


That's why they have different part numbers....they're not claiming one starter fits all.
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-08-18 1:36 PM (#546481 - in reply to #546480)
Subject: RE: Modern starters



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Yes, that's what I am pointing out. And what happened to 1961? Is that different than 1960? What is it about hemi applications that is different than 318 poly "A" motors?? But "A" motor starters are the same as big block 383, 361 & 413? No mention here of manual, truck, or other applications, but it is all very confusing. That is my point.
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1960fury
Posted 2017-08-18 7:46 PM (#546509 - in reply to #546481)
Subject: RE: Modern starters



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Powerflite - 2017-08-18 1:36 PM

Yes, that's what I am pointing out. And what happened to 1961? Is that different than 1960?


no, not for bb, they only changed to another manufacturer. for some reason they changed the ps pump from 60 to 61 too, to one with a bigger shaft (i believe). i never had trouble with it. my small shaft OE 59 never rebuild unit is still working troublefree like new. the box too.
wish todays manufacturers would still know how to produce parts that last longer than 15 years.

Edited by 1960fury 2017-08-18 7:48 PM
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mikes2nd
Posted 2017-08-19 2:24 PM (#546536 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: Re: Modern starters


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okay for 392 hemi
Hot heads starter is 290$

Napa sells one for 107$ RAY 2441055 Its a "modernized" starter with an original mount... I just ordered one.

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Powerflite
Posted 2017-08-19 4:36 PM (#546540 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: Re: Modern starters



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I don't think that will work. That is a 3-bolt truck starter. You need a 2-bolt version, I would assume for an automatic. Unless you have a manual trans, in which case, I have no idea.
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mikes2nd
Posted 2017-08-19 11:54 PM (#546556 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: Re: Modern starters


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this was recommended by the 300C guys for the hemi. Looks correct I think, I only see two connectors.

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/RSE2441055


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57chizler
Posted 2017-08-20 3:22 PM (#546581 - in reply to #546556)
Subject: Re: Modern starters



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The NAPA offering is still a direct-drive starter. The OP is looking for a "modern" gear-reduction starter.
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hemidenis
Posted 2017-08-20 7:24 PM (#546608 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: Re: Modern starters



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Mike that would probably won't work with the Hemi, notice that the application marked from 1962 and that is the year of the aluminum TF. Actually the aluminum was lunched in late 61. Anyhow those starters are rebuilt units.

For early hemis they are starters Nippon Denso modified...
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hemidenis
Posted 2017-08-20 7:28 PM (#546610 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: Re: Modern starters



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John, those modern gear-reduction they look like a good option.
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1960fury
Posted 2017-08-20 7:44 PM (#546612 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: Re: Modern starters



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from what i heard manual transmission bb cars kept the old 9 tooth starters up to 64, or so. can somebody confirm this?
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jboymechanic
Posted 2017-08-20 10:53 PM (#546625 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: Re: Modern starters



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I can add a little info here. My 1960 Plymouth Belvedere had a factory 3 bolt starter, drivetrain was 318 V8 with PF. Torque converter is 172 teeth, starter is 9 teeth. Prior to 1957, Chrysler used 146 tooth flywheels. Starters still had 9 teeth, but different diameter gear and different pitch as well. As far as gear sizes and pitches, if you have a 1956 or older engine/TC/flywheel you will need the same vintage starter. If you have a 1957 to 1961/62 engine/TC/flywheel, you will need a starter to match that range as well. Starters my vary by type of mounting flange (2 or 3 bolt) and starter drive type (bendix clutch or solenoid).

When Chrysler introduced the gear reduction starter, they were universal for all engines regardless of flywheel tooth count as the gear pitch remained the same. You could take a starter off a slant 6 and put it on a 440 if you wanted. There were slightly different versions of the gear reduction starter, but they interchange. The "mini" starters in the Magnum V8 powered vehicles will also interchange with the gear reduction starters that preceded them. I have a 1966 318 Poly in my 1960 Plymouth now and I had to use a starter from a 1990s Dodge truck to clear the 1960 exhaust manifold as my starter position changed when I converted to stick shift (1978 Dodge Aspen bell housing, 1966 flywheel, 1980s Dodge truck 4 speed overdrive).
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57chizler
Posted 2017-08-21 12:59 PM (#546675 - in reply to #546625)
Subject: Re: Modern starters



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jboymechanic - 2017-08-20 7:53 PM
When Chrysler introduced the gear reduction starter, they were universal for all engines


Except the '66-'69 4-speed Hemi.
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jboymechanic
Posted 2017-08-21 5:03 PM (#546693 - in reply to #546675)
Subject: Re: Modern starters



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57chizler - 2017-08-21 11:59 AM

jboymechanic - 2017-08-20 7:53 PM
When Chrysler introduced the gear reduction starter, they were universal for all engines


Except the '66-'69 4-speed Hemi.


YES! You're correct, forgot to mention that bit.
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mikes2nd
Posted 2017-08-21 5:33 PM (#546696 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: Re: Modern starters


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hmm so I just go with the hemi hot heads starter for 290$? is that the only option for a early hemi starter? other than stock
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57chizler
Posted 2017-08-22 2:57 PM (#546756 - in reply to #546696)
Subject: Re: Modern starters



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Check the link I posted above, probably same thing as HHH but cheaper.
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hemidenis
Posted 2017-08-22 9:17 PM (#546773 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: Re: Modern starters



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$290+Sh sound excessive, someone must do something more accessible.

My uncle just took apart my 361 starter in Argentina (because slow crank) and told me that everything was perfect except for a piece of electric bar connector from the solenoid to the starter motor and the rear bushing, he replaced the metal bar with a cooper and he is expecting that plus the new bushing will cure the problem.
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1960fury
Posted 2017-08-23 8:17 AM (#546811 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: Re: Modern starters



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i have the battery in the trunk and that makes the starter a bit slower. no problem for me. it was really slow when hot, but it alwas started the engine. that hot slow starting was cured after i fixed the oil "leak" from breather that oiled my starter down.
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hemidenis
Posted 2017-08-23 10:10 PM (#546851 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: Re: Modern starters



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bad rear bushing and a metal connector (replaced by cooper now) seems to be the problem will see. Sid you always put thousand of miles to your car with out troubles, very lucky indeed. i'm not that lucky, my car has less than 600 miles since rebuild and I keep fixing stuff...



(IMG-20170822-WA0007.jpg)



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Powerflite
Posted 2017-10-19 5:20 PM (#550621 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: Re: Modern starters



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It turns out that the Quality Power starters are made by IMI Performance in Whittier, CA; close to where I work.

http://www.hitorque.com/Hi_Torque_Gear_Reduction_Starter_s/1.htm

Their website is not complete, and you can't really get it directly through them any cheaper, but you can get them a little cheaper through other Ebay sellers. I decided to pay them a visit and check them out, and buy a starter while I was there. It looks to be a good quality unit with a lot of clocking options. I will let you know how it works when I get it installed.
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-10-21 3:11 PM (#550753 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: RE: Modern starters



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I installed the starter in my '60 New Yorker this morning. The bottom of the OD on the mounting ring interfered with the lower casting on the 413 by just a little bit. So I used a paper grinding pad and cut the OD of the mounting ring down in that area. The ID of the ring matched perfectly to the original and once installed, it worked really well. The motor turns much faster than it did, but not as fast as the Dakota starter on my 318. The 413 does take more effort to turn though, so I don't know if it is really a fair comparison. You have to get a longer bolt & nut for the upper one that threads into the starter. It is a little harder to install with a bolt and nut, but it isn't too bad if you put the nut on the trans side. I also had to change the battery cable and solenoid wires because they were too short to reach the new location, which is under the starter now.

Edited by Powerflite 2017-10-21 3:16 PM




(IMI Starter Mods.jpg)



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Powerflite
Posted 2020-02-24 11:17 AM (#594753 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: RE: Modern starters



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I was feeling frustrated that even IMI couldn't tell me if a '58 DeSoto starter interchanged with a '60 Chrysler. So I looked up the interchange info and it's a real mess.
1. Apparently, the "B" block 350 starter doesn't interchange with the 361 DeSoto starter from the same year, but it does interchange with a 361 or 383 in a Dodge from the same year. Why is that? What is different about the DeSoto 361 vs. the Dodge 361??
2. The note claims that the RB big block starter does mostly interchange with the 392 hemi and '57 DeSoto hemis. I never would have guessed that!
3. '56 Plymouth V8 starters don't interchange with anything, even though many of them had Dodge motors in them. '56 Dodge V8 has no interchange as well. Crazy.
4. All '59 Plymouth V8 motors use the same starter even though they could have come with B motors or the 318. But the 318 starter from other years & makes doesn't interchange with B or RB starters. Huh??
5. '60-'61 Valiant doesn't interchange with '62, which doesn't interchange with '63, which doesn't interchange with '64-'65 225 motor. This is insane.

What a mess! Chrysler really screwed the pooch here in terms of part number simplification. No wonder no one knows what interchanges. After looking over it, I still couldn't say what interchanges with what unless I look it up again.



(Chrysler Starter Applications.jpg)



(Chrysler Starter Categories.jpg)



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wizard
Posted 2020-02-24 12:42 PM (#594756 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: Re: Modern starters



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The starter MDT6002, MDL6014 and A-L will interchange

- Chrysler '59-'60
- DeSoto '58 exc Firesweep
- DeSoto '60


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Powerflite
Posted 2020-02-24 1:48 PM (#594762 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: Re: Modern starters



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And apparently that same starter will work on the 392 hemi & '57 DeSoto hemis, but it doesn't work on other "B" motors even though the '58 DeSoto is a "B" motor too. Why is that? Also this list says it will work with '61 as well, even though there are slight differences, which is true.

Edited by Powerflite 2020-02-24 1:50 PM
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jboymechanic
Posted 2020-02-24 5:17 PM (#594768 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: Re: Modern starters



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The differences may be minor. For example, a DeSoto might have a solenoid mounted on the starter while a Dodge had a solenoid on the inner fender. Both might be compatible with the mounting flange and the flywheel/TC, but they aren't the "same".
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Powerflite
Posted 2020-03-01 9:40 PM (#595053 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: Re: Modern starters



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I swapped an original '60 Chrysler starter into my '58 DeSoto. It wasn't completely interchangeable. The DeSoto starter has less material around the lower bolt hole to give more clearance to the block ear down there. I had to shave the edge off the '60 Chrysler starter to get it to fit up to the 361.
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hemidenis
Posted 2020-05-20 10:47 AM (#598543 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: Re: Modern starters



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I started with this thread almost 3 years ago and still it is not an answer and it may never be.

Looking at the interchangeability data...INSANE. This maybe also based in factory parts numbers... The real world fitting could be something different though, try to replace a stock starter in a 413, gosh what a pain in the neck, I'm sure if you are not absolutely sure the starter belong to the car you will return it believing it is not the right one. .

Nathan, thanks you for the paper info of the starters, I just printed it and maybe, just maybe.... different colors of highlighters could make sense to this mess...





Edited by hemidenis 2020-05-20 11:27 AM
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hemidenis
Posted 2020-05-20 9:14 PM (#598566 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: Re: Modern starters



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Nathan, they were 2 "different" starter for Desoto in 1958, however the housing that attach to the engine were the same. According to the parts manual the housing for 1960 was different than 58. which was corroborated by you.
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grant4405
Posted 2020-07-13 12:30 PM (#600800 - in reply to #546319)
Subject: Re: Modern starters


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assumng you can find a modern hitorque starter to fit, they all seem to have two wires going to them. The old '58 B block starters have one wire with the solenoid on the fender wall. How would you rewire ? Just bypass the old solenoid and take the positive battery cable straight to the starter but then where do you get the small wire on the starter-other side of the old solenoid?? Dont think that makes any sense but i cant come up with alternative???
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Powerflite
Posted 2020-07-14 12:43 AM (#600841 - in reply to #600800)
Subject: Re: Modern starters



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The list above should tell you that you can't make any blanket statement about "old '58 B block starters" because even within DeSoto, the 350 used a different starter than the 361 in '58. But the new starters just need an activation wire that comes from the starter relay. The relay is required because it draws too much current to come directly from your ignition switch. The other connection is just a straight power line from the battery. You could use the solenoid version to make it happen or swap over to the relay version, as they pretty much do the same thing but with different amounts of current available. So you should be able to make them work with either system.

Edited by Powerflite 2020-07-14 12:46 AM
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