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Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2017-08-21 2:54 PM (#546682)
Subject: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter


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I know this has been talked about before but who currently has adapters and are there check valves in the block that need to be altered or replaced?

Greg
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-08-21 5:15 PM (#546694 - in reply to #546682)
Subject: Re: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter



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Hothemiheads.com is probably the best. You can choose between 3 different versions. Wayfarer used to sell one, but not anymore. And yes, you should also purchase a check valve plug from Hot Heads too, but it does require removing the rear main cap so you are going to need to replace a lot of seals too.
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Mopar1
Posted 2017-08-21 5:44 PM (#546699 - in reply to #546694)
Subject: Re: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter



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If you have the torsion bar suspension the OEM up angle one that Hot Heads sells will probably be the only one that will work.
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Mopar1
Posted 2017-08-21 5:47 PM (#546700 - in reply to #546682)
Subject: Re: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter



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The block just replaces the anti-drain back check ball, unless you are tearing your engine down it can wait.
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2017-08-21 5:47 PM (#546701 - in reply to #546694)
Subject: Re: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter


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Thanks, Nathan.

Greg
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2017-08-21 8:22 PM (#546707 - in reply to #546700)
Subject: Re: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter


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Thanks, Mopar1,
I think I need the angled-up one and hope that it will fit. Not much room there in my Dodge!

Glad to hear the tear down can wait!
Greg
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51coronet
Posted 2017-08-23 12:15 AM (#546795 - in reply to #546682)
Subject: Re: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter


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You can also relocate the filter to an easier to access place. I did this on a 58 imperial I had and don't regret it. The oil filter placement on the hemi engines is horrible. Just be smart about it and protect the lines from kinks and rubbing and you will be happy you did it.
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2017-08-23 7:56 AM (#546808 - in reply to #546795)
Subject: Re: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter


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Yes. I've seen that done especially on street rods.

I'm still wondering about the anti drain back valve. All it does is stop the oil draining the galleries into the oil pan when the engine is shut off. On the hemi poly it is at the back and right where it should be. I see no connection at all to where the filter canister is located. With the engine shut off the original canisters drain down. Why would the engine care if a replacement spin on filter had an anti drain back or not?!

Can anyone shed some light on this?

Greg
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-08-23 9:09 AM (#546814 - in reply to #546808)
Subject: Re: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter



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That's not what it is for. It is called a "filter bypass valve" in the FSM. It allows the motor to bypass the oil filter in case the filter gets clogged. Plugging this valve off is the current solution since newer filters have more backpressure than the originals, so that if you install a late-model filter, this valve could be bypassing most of the oil from ever entering into the filter. I wish I could find the lubrication chart that I have, but I will post it when I can. But I agree with George, that replacing it can probably wait as long as you change your filter pretty regularly.

Edited by Powerflite 2017-08-23 9:43 AM
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Mopar1
Posted 2017-08-23 11:03 AM (#546820 - in reply to #546814)
Subject: Re: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter



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Powerflite - 2017-08-23 8:09 AM

That's not what it is for. It is called a "filter bypass valve" in the FSM. It allows the motor to bypass the oil filter in case the filter gets clogged. Plugging this valve off is the current solution since newer filters have more backpressure than the originals, so that if you install a late-model filter, this valve could be bypassing most of the oil from ever entering into the filter. I wish I could find the lubrication chart that I have, but I will post it when I can. But I agree with George, that replacing it can probably wait as long as you change your filter pretty regularly.
Exactly how can oil get around the check ball? from what I've seen in my engines there may be a small amount of oil getting around the ball all the time but I don't see any way any real volume of oil can pass through.
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wayfarer
Posted 2017-08-24 1:13 PM (#546913 - in reply to #546682)
Subject: Re: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter



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Allow me to opine....
There are two distinct features in the aforementioned valve assembly. Not all blocks are drilled for this valve; some not at all and some only for the pressure by-pass. The anti-drain back ball/spring simply keeps the filter full of oil in a stock system. Some, but not all, of the current spin-on filters have a valve built-in. The 'other' half of the assembly is a pressure relief in the event of a clogged filter media.
If the pressure from the pump reaches 'X' level the small spring loaded seat opens and oil flows up into the engine. The drain back check ball would then be pushed up against its spring allowing oil to flow.
Do not replace the oem parts if an unknown filter is used up-side down as this will/could/might allow the filter to drain.
As to a replacement, a simple 'cup-plug' can be shoved up into the block to separate the in/out lines to/from the filter. This is a better solution than the machined plugs that are available due to there not being any restriction placed within the bore of the oil feed from the pump. For those that want to use a machined plug I have a small quantity available and have no plans to use them in any project engines....$10ppd.

As to remote filters, keep the lines to a minimum of '-8' ID and minimize the hose length. I think 36 " or so should be the limit. Also, do not use any right-angle fittings in the system as they restrict flow. Aero-quip FC-332 is an excellent hose that works well with socketless fittings.

Edited by wayfarer 2017-08-24 1:25 PM
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Mopar1
Posted 2017-08-27 9:34 PM (#547161 - in reply to #546682)
Subject: Re: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter



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looking at the '54 shop manual it looks like the clogged oil filter by pass is in the base of the OEM oil filter assembly.
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2017-08-27 11:10 PM (#547168 - in reply to #547161)
Subject: Re: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter


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Mopar1 - 2017-08-27 9:34 PM

looking at the '54 shop manual it looks like the clogged oil filter by pass is in the base of the OEM oil filter assembly.


Exactly!! The canister assembly is "spring loaded". If the clogged filter exceeds the oil pressure, the spring collapses and the clogged filter is now bypassed! No big deal at all!!

The cage and ball assembly is to prevent drain back of the oil galleries. It has NOTHING to do with the function or non-function of the oil filter at all!!

Thank you!!

Greg
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-08-28 11:49 AM (#547191 - in reply to #547168)
Subject: Re: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter



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This is what I have. The valve seems to serve 2 purposes, just as Wayfarer stated - to bypass the filter, and to prevent drainback. It seems that the new replacement just plugs off the filter bypass and eliminates the drainback valve. According to the lubrication chart, the crank doesn't get oiled until it goes through a long passage to the front of the crank. But the valve will bypass that and feed the crank directly from the back end. But this bypass path isn't shown in the diagram so it is hard to see how it occurs, but it likely just goes from the valve up to the oil hole that you see, feeding the rear of the crank.

Edited by Powerflite 2017-08-28 11:57 AM




(Hemi Bypass Valve.jpg)



(Hemi-BigBlock Oil Diagrams.jpg)



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Attachments Hemi Bypass Valve.jpg (249KB - 19 downloads)
Attachments Hemi-BigBlock Oil Diagrams.jpg (207KB - 18 downloads)
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2017-08-28 12:19 PM (#547192 - in reply to #547191)
Subject: Re: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter


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Now I don't know what to do!!

Greg
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-08-28 2:00 PM (#547204 - in reply to #546682)
Subject: RE: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter



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When in doubt, follow Wafarer's advice!

If you have the motor open so you can do what you like easily, just use the new plug replacement and ensure that your filter has an anti-drain back valve in it. You can look up whether or not that is included in the filter by going on Summit racing's website and look up the filter you want to use. They have a line that tells you if it is included or not. This is an example screenshot of an PH8A filter:



(Filter Info.jpg)



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LD3 Greg
Posted 2017-08-28 3:56 PM (#547209 - in reply to #547204)
Subject: RE: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter


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The engine is in the car. We have put 4 new filters and gaskets and every one starts to leak after a couple weeks! You can see the gasket has been forced to one side. Maybe the gaskets are too small or have hardened but they certainly look and feel OK. Maybe the parts have been damaged. I don't know. Anyway, I'm fed up with the canister! It is a brute to work with!
It is a 58 CDN Dodge 354.
Thanks for your help, Nathan.
Greg
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hemidenis
Posted 2017-08-28 8:10 PM (#547221 - in reply to #546682)
Subject: Re: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter



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maybe over tightening the canister greg?

I did the conversion for eliminate the bypass valve. I Purchased one of the 'spin on' filter adapter but it may not fit because mine is pointing down, and as mentioned above it may interfere with the torsion bars.

No matter what you do the filter replacement is always going to be messy. this Hothead heads adapter maybe the only solution for stock cars, salty at $71

Edited by hemidenis 2017-08-28 8:14 PM




(21002.1.jpg)



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mstrug
Posted 2017-08-28 9:30 PM (#547225 - in reply to #546682)
Subject: Re: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter



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Canister? I bet if you dig up in there; a left over o-ring is in the groove and causing your problem, Happens to the best of us, Heck could have been in there for years! Marc.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1953-1954-1955-1956-1957-DeSoto-Dodge-New-O...

.

Edited by mstrug 2017-08-28 9:38 PM




(1957oilfilter.JPG)



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hemidenis
Posted 2017-08-28 10:02 PM (#547226 - in reply to #546682)
Subject: Re: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter



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this is the one i purchased for my 392. I'm not sure it will fit against the inner fenders..




Edited by hemidenis 2017-08-28 10:03 PM




(s-l1600 (1).jpg)



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LD3 Greg
Posted 2017-08-28 11:28 PM (#547236 - in reply to #546682)
Subject: RE: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter


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Marc, the canister filters have worked for me for close to 40 years on at least 8 cars! At least 20 years for this car. We thoroughly examined/cleaned the housings for each of these late filter leaks/changes. We tried different tightness each time as well. All leaked! Trouble is that the leaks are high volume and have luckily occurred during local use and I noticed them early. If one occurred on a highway trip, it wouldn't be noticed until it ran out of oil!

Before I got Nathan's last post I ordered two of the 30 degree adapters from Hot Heads and they have been shipped. One for me and one for my friends 300 D. Thanks for the info, Denis.

A little undetermined how to proceed from here!

Greg
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-08-29 1:26 AM (#547241 - in reply to #546682)
Subject: Re: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter



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I wouldn't fret it. I think you are over-thinking this. Like George and I said at the beginning, You can install the new filter and just leave the bypass plug as is. Just change your filter regularly so that it won't back up with too much pressure and you should be fine.
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2017-08-29 8:20 AM (#547256 - in reply to #547241)
Subject: Re: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter


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Powerflite - 2017-08-29 1:26 AM

I wouldn't fret it. I think you are over-thinking this. Like George and I said at the beginning, You can install the new filter and just leave the bypass plug as is. Just change your filter regularly so that it won't back up with too much pressure and you should be fine.


Good and thanks again, Nathan.

Greg
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Mopar1
Posted 2017-08-29 11:29 AM (#547274 - in reply to #547256)
Subject: Re: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter



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On at least some of the early long tail 331s the passage isn't even drilled all the way through.
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wayfarer
Posted 2017-08-30 10:18 AM (#547350 - in reply to #547274)
Subject: Re: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter



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Mopar1 - 2017-08-29 8:29 AM

On at least some of the early long tail 331s the passage isn't even drilled all the way through.


...as well as many Dodge and DeSoto blocks.
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2017-08-31 1:18 PM (#547435 - in reply to #547241)
Subject: Re: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter


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Powerflite - 2017-08-29 1:26 AM

I wouldn't fret it. I think you are over-thinking this. Like George and I said at the beginning, You can install the new filter and just leave the bypass plug as is. Just change your filter regularly so that it won't back up with too much pressure and you should be fine.


OK. In this case should I use spin on filters that have filter bypass and anti drain back valves built into them? Or, does it matter?

Greg
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-08-31 1:24 PM (#547437 - in reply to #546682)
Subject: Re: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter



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I would still get an anti-drain back valve because the filter itself is going to be upside down, but the system already has one so it probably doesn't matter. Having 2 of them or 2 bypass valves isn't going to hurt anything.
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2017-08-31 3:47 PM (#547451 - in reply to #547437)
Subject: Re: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter


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Powerflite - 2017-08-31 1:24 PM

I would still get an anti-drain back valve because the filter itself is going to be upside down, but the system already has one so it probably doesn't matter. Having 2 of them or 2 bypass valves isn't going to hurt anything.


Thanks,Nathan.

Greg
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2017-11-11 12:33 AM (#552011 - in reply to #547451)
Subject: Re: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter


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Update!
The 30 degree Hotheads adapter which bolts to the engine block communicates exactly with the oil ports as does the OEM canister filter base. Both the new spin on filter and the old canister are oriented in the same way ---- So --- if the engine oiling system worked with the old system it will work equally as well with any spin on filter. The anti drain back and clogged filter valves and regulation are built into the oil galleries of the engine block, at least for any 57/58 Mopar V8 that I have ever seen. I do agree with Nathan. Use a filter with the anti drain back valve. A quick look will confirm this function. Don't run the risk of firing up a cold engine with empty oil galleries!

My car no longer leaves puddles of engine oil! Good job Guys! Thanks for all the help!

Greg
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Mopar1
Posted 2017-11-11 11:09 AM (#552028 - in reply to #547226)
Subject: Re: Adapt a 354 for a spin on oil filter



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hemidenis - 2017-08-28 9:02 PM

this is the one i purchased for my 392. I'm not sure it will fit against the inner fenders..


there are filters of various lengths available. Longest is the Fram PH8A/Motorcraft FL-1/Wix 51515. Next shorter is the Fram PH43, then the PH16 ( used on Crown Vic Police Interceptors with 351W with oil cooler). If there is seriously little room the is a Wix for the '70 Renault R-10 that is only about 2" long, would need to be changed more often!
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