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Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-09-25 9:31 PM (#549163)
Subject: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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Now that my generator has been rebuilt and is actually producing (+) volts (13.8V or so when I check it at the Armature terminal on the generator), I expect that my battery will get charged and starting will be a whiz.

Not so. Seems like the starter is trying but it is too weak to spin the engine. The other day, when I went to move the car off the street, I hit the key (turning to START) and the starter went Cah_Lunk and nothing happened. When I released the key, I could hear the Bendix spinning back - indicating that the starter was trying but there just wasn't enough poop in the battery to spin the engine. I tried again. Nothing. I tried again, and Varoom. Barely turned over but it started (for which I thank Mr. Pertronix).

After charging the battery for a few hours today, I tried starting the engine (in the garage). It started, but it seemed reluctant to spin at first.

I have no experience with a failing starter and don't know where to start - other than I am taking the battery to be load tested tomorrow. Could be a weak cell (battery is only one year old). OR???

Comments/suggestions welcomed, as always. Remember I'm still a noob at this (after a 44 year break between my 55 Dodge and this 56 Dodge).

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Viper Guy
Posted 2017-09-25 10:18 PM (#549165 - in reply to #549163)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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Did you try starting the car with the charger still connected to the battery? That would give it full pop at turning the engine over if the starter was OK. My thoughts are it is a weak battery and your load test should bear this out. However, if the battery is fine, first check all your electtical connections all the way to the starter from the battery including the relay on the inner fender. If there is no problem found, It's got to be the starter and probably needs to be replaced or rebuilt.

Good luck and hope it's not anything serious.
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Mopar1
Posted 2017-09-26 11:31 AM (#549185 - in reply to #549163)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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I'd use jumper cables to a running car instead of a battery charger, more oomph!
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-09-26 2:02 PM (#549204 - in reply to #549185)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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Mopar1 - 2017-09-26 11:31 AM
I'd use jumper cables to a running car instead of a battery charger, more oomph!


I carry a charged lithium ion battery jumper pack in the car if worse comes to worse.

BTW: I *think* the starter is (should be) a 1658 033 aka an "MDF 6007". I assume that is one without an external solenoid to throw the Bendix into the ring gear. I can't really see the starter from above and getting underneath isn't easy for me.

REFERENCE: https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/hmn/2012/04/Post-War-Pentastar-Sta...



Edited by 56D500boy 2017-09-26 2:15 PM
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-09-26 8:25 PM (#549232 - in reply to #549204)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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After charging my battery overnight, it had 12.97V in it before I tried starting the engine. One pump of the gas pedal and it pretty much started in half a turn of the engine. So maybe it is just a battery issue.

My 56 Chryco parts book , pg. 8-94, says the starter should be a 1658 033 for a D63 V8.

My Mopar Parts pdf has that same number and says that it might be stamped MDF 6007.

I checked with Lordco (think PepBoys) and they told me MDF 6007 was a Wilson. They don't have one.

Andy at Brighouse Auto Electric in Richmond says MDF 6007 was a Prestolite and that he might have one. If not, he figures that they would be able to rebuild it, as needed.

There is no external solenoid to throw the Bendix into the ring gear. It is an inertia-style Bendix supposedly similar to this one:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/STARTER-DRIVE-ALLIS-CASE-CATERPILLAR-FORD-GM...

See attached photos (Starting at the end away from the flywheel and ending where the starter attaches to the engine/bell housing).

No photo of the Serial Number/Model plate. Just a "3410" stamping on the case. Starter cable and connection looks pretty good (some fraying of the cable so a little loss of power, etc).

Playing this by ear for now.

(BTW, I see I need to get the car up on ramps so I can do some engine wiping - looks gross now that I see that).




Edited by 56D500boy 2017-09-27 1:22 AM




(1658033_MDF6007_Starter_1.jpg)



(1658033_MDF6007_Starter_2.jpg)



(1658033_MDF6007_Starter_3.jpg)



(1658033_MDF6007_Starter_4.jpg)



(1658033_MDF6007_Starter_5.jpg)



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Attachments 1658033_MDF6007_Starter_3.jpg (184KB - 12 downloads)
Attachments 1658033_MDF6007_Starter_4.jpg (164KB - 12 downloads)
Attachments 1658033_MDF6007_Starter_5.jpg (188KB - 12 downloads)
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Mopar1
Posted 2017-09-27 11:00 AM (#549264 - in reply to #549232)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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56D500boy - 2017-09-26 7:25 PM

My 56 Chryco parts book , pg. 8-94, says the starter should be a 1658 033 for a D63 V8.

My Mopar Parts pdf has that same number and says that it might be stamped MDF 6007.


1658 033 MDF 6007 315 with PF
MDG 6002 with a manual
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-09-27 12:01 PM (#549268 - in reply to #549264)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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Mopar1 - 2017-09-27 11:00 AM
1658 033 MDF 6007 315 with PF
MDG 6002 with a manual


My hardcopy 56 parts manual doesn't call out auto or trans. Just 6 or V8. The 55-58 Mopar Parts pdf seems to say the other way around. ((!!??)





Edited by 56D500boy 2017-09-27 12:05 PM




(55-58StarterMotorPNs.jpg)



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56D500boy
Posted 2017-09-27 8:34 PM (#549314 - in reply to #549268)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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I was just perusing that 60 Plymouth advert and looked at the starter:



Hmmm....Mine looks a lot like that. Comparing the 6 Cylinder and 8 Cylinder diagrams from the Mopar Parts pdf, I am starting to think that somebody slapped a 6 cylinder starter on my 9.25:1 compression (when new) hemi V8 - which could explain the hard(ish) starting issue. Am I wrong to think that the V8 starter should have an external solenoid to drive the Bendix into the flywheel?

???





Edited by 56D500boy 2017-09-27 8:37 PM




(6CylinderStarterDiagram.jpg)



(8CylinderStarterDiagram.jpg)



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56D500boy
Posted 2017-09-28 2:22 AM (#549332 - in reply to #549314)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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I checked with Dave Homstad and he confirms that the starter is a 1658 033 (Autolite MDF 6007) which does NOT have an external Bendix solenoid drive.

I searched for Autolite MDF 6007 and found the sheet below. On that basis I searched for the Bendix, i.e. Bendix "Folo-Thru" No. A3274.

Might look similar to this:



REFERENCE: http://www.usautoelectric.com/store-products-DR12297-Drive-Assembly...



Edited by 56D500boy 2017-09-28 2:32 AM




(DodgeV8StarterInfo.jpg)



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jboymechanic
Posted 2017-09-28 3:46 PM (#549363 - in reply to #549163)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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Typically the higher end cars had the starter solenoid on the starter, such as my 1956 Imperial. Lower models had the "Bendix Drive". These starters are pretty simple, may be worth cracking yours open and cleaning the contacts and bushings, and replace your brushes if needed. If you need parts, I have one of these starters in my garage. The mounting ears on the snout are both broken and the internal copper coil is cracked so it is not usable, but all the other parts seemed okay.
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-10-01 10:51 PM (#549574 - in reply to #549363)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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I had the car out on Friday afternoon. Seemed to start fine. While I had it out sitting on the side of the house, I played the radio and/or USB/iPod because of the novelty. When I went to put the car away, the starter did not want to turn the engine over. I checked the voltage at the battery and it was 12.52V. I thought that was fine but I put the battery charger on for a while (30 to 45 minutes) and when I tried again, the starter turned the engine over and it started right off.

I didn't have the car out yesterday (raining) but I had it out today after lunch. Same game with the radio (but just on FM) for probably 4 hours. When it was time to put the car away, I turned the key to start and basically nothing happened. However, rather than going in to get the battery charger again, I took a short pause and then tried again. Started right up. So that just makes my head hurt (i.e. I don't understand what is going on).

Just an update for anybody following along and who may have some insights.



Edited by 56D500boy 2017-10-01 10:51 PM
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wizard
Posted 2017-10-02 12:50 AM (#549578 - in reply to #549163)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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Part of your problem shows in 1658033_MDF6007_Starter_2.jpg - the wire is damaged and doesn't have full gauge. If you go up in wire gauge to the next bigger one, then I Think your problems are gone.

If the problem occurs when the Engine is hot, then it's heat soak
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-10-02 1:11 AM (#549579 - in reply to #549578)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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wizard - 2017-10-02 12:50 AM Part of your problem shows in 1658033_MDF6007_Starter_2.jpg - the wire is damaged and doesn't have full gauge. If you go up in wire gauge to the next bigger one, then I Think your problems are gone. If the problem occurs when the Engine is hot, then it's heat soak


I hear you on the starter cable. I was looking at replacement cables on Friday but I didn't know the length (and I was 25 km from the car at that moment). But yes, I'll replace the cable.

The issue shouldn't be heat soak. In both recent cases, all I had done was start the car in the garage, back it out and park it on the street beside the house (corner lot). No time to get even warm.

Now to figure out the wire gauge.

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Powerflite
Posted 2017-10-02 1:13 AM (#549580 - in reply to #549163)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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You can test the voltage at your starter connector while cranking to see if it is getting sufficient power.

What is the solution if the problem is due to heat soak?
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-10-03 10:51 PM (#549730 - in reply to #549580)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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Had the car out again today. Started fine. Drove it to the side of the house. Worked on the right rocker panel/stone deflector area. Had the radio on for about 3 hrs (just FM). Volume not very loud. Checked the battery voltage before I tried starting the car. 11.93 V. Started pretty much right off, no starter stall, just a crank or two and Vrooom!.

With the engine started I checked the output at the Armature Terminal on the Generator - bounced around a bit but was in the 13.6 to 14.2 V range. After running for a bit, I checked the battery again. 13.4V. So everything is good.

Still, I will replace the starter cable soon and get the battery checked for goodness.



Edited by 56D500boy 2017-10-03 10:51 PM
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wizard
Posted 2017-10-04 12:54 AM (#549735 - in reply to #549580)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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Powerflite - 2017-10-02 7:13 AM

You can test the voltage at your starter connector while cranking to see if it is getting sufficient power.

What is the solution if the problem is due to heat soak?


First to check and fix all wire connections, ground and battery poles.
Measure the voltage as per above
Measure the voltage from the ignition lock to the solonoid (might be as low as 9 volts)

Change the positive and negative wires to AWG 1, or even AWG 0 (this will make the starter very potent)

If there's too much resistance in the ignition circuit to the solonoid, mount a relay so that the solonoid always gets full battery power.
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-10-04 5:49 PM (#549772 - in reply to #549735)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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What I am referring to regarding heat soak is if the starter works great when it is cold, but when hot, it pukes. So the connection quality is the same in both cases, but if the starter is hot, it doesn't work. What is the likely cause for that?
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-10-04 6:34 PM (#549776 - in reply to #549772)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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Powerflite - 2017-10-04 5:49 PM What I am referring to regarding heat soak is if the starter works great when it is cold, but when hot, it pukes. So the connection quality is the same in both cases, but if the starter is hot, it doesn't work. What is the likely cause for that?


It does seem very much like a heat soak issue but why? is the question.

This AM I was retrieving eBay purchases (driving one of my 93/93 Audi S4s) and on the way home I stopped at a different battery shop (one that deals in bigger marine and industrial batteries). I described the situation and he said that I should charge the battery more (off my battery charger) before the battery is declared dead. We also agreed that he can/will make me up a cable from the fender solenoid to the starter using AWG 1 or AWG 1/0 cable (very fine strands and very thick). I just need to get him the length.

This afternoon I drove the 56 Dodge to the shop I bought the battery from in Sept. 2016 to have the battery checked. He hooked up some testing meter and said that a) the battery was a deep cycle battery (generally for marine use) and b) it was fine. "Ish". Needs charging. He's a young guy and was surprised that generator didn't start charging until the engine was well off idle. He is really only familiar with alternators.

He gave me the name of a guy who is old school and knows generators.

When I went to leave his shop, the engine hesitated to start (took three tries to get the engine cranking - then it started immediately).




Edited by 56D500boy 2017-10-04 10:48 PM
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wizard
Posted 2017-10-05 12:47 AM (#549797 - in reply to #549163)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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About heat soak, a post from a Camaro forum that describes the issue well;

If your solenoid is slamming the contactors in and turning the starter, you are correct, it's the starter that's the issue.
Both of these devices can be dramatically affected by heatsoak and I don't care where you put an external solenoid,
this problem will persist.
This assumes of course that all the wires and connections are in good shape and correctly sized!

Starters absorb heat like a sponge because of their makeup and can easily see in excess of 250*F.
What happens is as the temperature rises of the copper windings of the starter
(the part which produces EMF which translates to work or watts),
which contains thousands of feet of nothing but copper wire, the resistance of the field goes up
proportionately to the temperature rise.

The amount of increase in the resistance of a 1-ohm sample of the conductor per degree rise in temperature above 0º C
is called the temperature coefficient of resistance. For copper, the value is approximately 0.00427 ohm/C*.

For example, a length of copper wire having a resistance of 50 ohms at an initial temperature of 0º C will have an increase in
resistance of 50 X 0.00427, or 0.214 ohms/C*. This applies to the entire length of wire and for each degree of temperature rise above 0º C.
A 20º C increase in temperature translates to approximately 20 X 0.214 ohms/C, or 4.28 ohms increase.
The total resistance at 20º C is 50 + 4.28, or 54.28 ohms.

Now considering a typical automotive starter which can take anywhere from 100 to 250 amps when cranking
(depending on spec/application). This means (neglecting inductive impedance and connection resistance and other for simplicity)
that the typical resistance can be a typical 0.1 ohms. So using/substituting the formula/example above we know that this value will
change 0.1 X .00427 = .000427 ohms per degree C rise. So, assuming your starter can go another 100 degrees C in temperature rise
(this is easily attainable) meaning that the resistance increase is .000424 X 100 = 0.0427 or a total of 0.1 ohm + 0.0427 ohms = .1427 !

What the difference is can be expressed in watts or work which is needed to turn your motor over. The cold beginning temperature
says that the motor operates at a constant 12 volts (which never happens...your battery always will show a lower number during cranking
but depending on capacity will differ, but for this calculation will remain constant) with a 0.1 ohm coil meaning that it's sucking down 120 amps
when cranking. This equates to is about 12vdc X 120 amps = 1440 watts! Now using the hot starter figures and you have the starter operating
at 12 volts with a coil at .1427 ohms meaning now it's only taking 84 amps due to the increase in resistance!
This figures out at 1009 watts? This equates to a 30% decrease in watts or work! This is why it cranks slowly!

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56D500boy
Posted 2017-10-05 7:18 PM (#549843 - in reply to #549797)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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Wizard: Thanks very much for the science/physics/electrical engineering lesson. I have Ph.D. in engineering but in Environmental engineering (not Electrical). But, hey if you ever need your avloppsvatten behandlingsanläggning tuned up, I might be able to return the favour. Maybe. (I've been retired from that for 7 years now).

I had a couple of things planned today that involved me driving the car to a) a paint provided and b) an industrial battery place. Before I started the car, I check the battery voltage. 12.15V. Car started pretty much right off.

Then I drove 20 km to the place that I am trying to get the light blue paint matched (again). After figuring out and ordering a couple of spray bombs of the best paint match that we could agree on (to a paint the he has a formula for), I started the engine to drive off. Started not bad. I expected worse.

Then drove about 500 m to the industrial battery place to get a solenoid to starter cable made up. I stopped the car. Got out and went in. Had a 5 minute discussion and then was told to drive the car to the back where they could measure the needed length. Starting failed twice. The big nothing. I checked the voltage (still about 12.15V). After that brief pause, I tried again and it started and I drove the car to the back of the shop.

We messed around figuring out the cable length. In the bright light of day (gorgeously sunny fall day here), I could actually see the end of the starter from above. He used a measure tape from above and I guided the one end at the starter (laying on the ground). We figured 25" (635 mm or so).

He made me the cable right there and then. Used AWG 1/0 (50 mm^2) CCI Royal/Excelene 600V welding cable (made in the USA) and two AWG 2/0 eyelet lug terminal ends pre-positioned to eliminate twists during install. Professionally double crimped. We have West Coast (BC) term for that: "Skookum" (very strong). Cost me $16 plus taxes. Deal.

While I was there I got him to test the battery. He used a hygrometer to show me how badly discharged the battery was. Then he did an old school load test and said the battery is actually fine - it just needs some serious charging.

Then it came time to go. I warned him, especially after the load test, that it might not start. I didn't. Not a crank. But you could hear the bendix spinning back out when I released the key so there was some current flow to the starter. Just not enough to turn over the engine.

He went in and got one of their 1000 AmpHr batteries that they sell and a "skookum" set of jumper cable to jump my battery. First try didnot work. After letting the jumper battery charge my battery for about a minute, I tried again and the engine started. He was amazed that it took so much to get the thing to crank. He pointed me towards the same guy I had my generator work done (and to whom I have already spoken to about the starter) and told me to charge my battery (a lot).

So the plan is to charge the battery for at least 24 hrs at the 2 to 4 Amps my charger will do *AND* change the cable between the solenoid and the starter.

IF I still have problems then, the starter is going to have to come off and taken to the starter/generator shop. (Brighouse Electric).

I made it back home without incident in a lot of stop and go traffic, just praying that there wouldn't be problem.





Edited by 56D500boy 2017-10-05 7:45 PM




(PurposeMadeSolenoidToStarterAGW1_0_25inchCable.jpg)



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wizard
Posted 2017-10-06 1:01 AM (#549864 - in reply to #549163)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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12,15 volts indicates a discharged battery. A fully charged car battery should have above 12,6 volts.

So, you started the car with a next to discharged battery, drove 20 km (not enought to charge), stopped and restarted the car and then stopped and tried to restart after 500 meters.

This means that the battery was fully discharged when the jumper Cables was used - in this case, the battery itself will suck the juice out of the jump starter. Instead, the battery plus pole should be lifted from the battery and first after that the car starts put back on the battery, Always with the jump starter Cable connected of course.

I like the "fat" gauge Cable - that will make your starter roar with the proper voltage.
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lonesome mopar
Posted 2017-10-06 7:45 AM (#549876 - in reply to #549163)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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Hi Dave,
here is my two cents added to the collection:
Many years ago (about 10) I had the same problem: starter hardly turning the engine when hot.
I replaced the armature and the field coils and the problem disappeared.

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56D500boy
Posted 2017-10-07 3:39 PM (#549939 - in reply to #549876)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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lonesome mopar - 2017-10-06 7:45 AM Hi Dave, here is my two cents added to the collection:
Many years ago (about 10) I had the same problem: starter hardly turning the engine when hot. I replaced the armature and the field coils and the problem disappeared.


Thanks. I am trying to avoid that scenario but I realize that it rebuilding the starter is a strong possibility.

I put the battery on charge yesterday until about 9:00 PM. When I took the charger off, I had 13.3 V in it.

This morning (7 deg C) the battery measured 12.85 V so I put the charger back on.

I am not sure if I don't have a parasitic voltage bleed. BUT I can't imagine what it would be.

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56D500boy
Posted 2017-10-07 7:10 PM (#549952 - in reply to #549939)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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56D500boy - 2017-10-07 3:39 PM
I am not sure if I don't have a parasitic voltage bleed. BUT I can't imagine what it would be.
:(


Started the car to take it outside to work on the inside of the trunk (painting). Had 13.3V before starting. 13.16V when I parked it on the street. Did NOT play the radio. Before I put the car away, I checked the voltage. 13.00V (from 13.16). Parked it in the garage and checked again. 12.5V (2 minutes after the start). Not sure where the 0.16V went with the key in OFF and nothing running (and NO dome light). I understand the loss of 0.5V after the start (started okay).

Put the charger back on for the night. Getting a bit crazy.

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Mopar1
Posted 2017-10-07 8:29 PM (#549954 - in reply to #549952)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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Wal-Mart has/had cheap 1/4 twist battery disconnects for less than 4 bucks a few years ago. You could get one, or just take a cable off when charged & see if there is drop when isolated.
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-10-08 2:17 AM (#549958 - in reply to #549954)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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Mopar1 - 2017-10-07 8:29 PM
Wal-Mart has/had cheap 1/4 twist battery disconnects for less than 4 bucks a few years ago. You could get one, or just take a cable off when charged & see if there is drop when isolated.


Sounds like a plan.

I have never monitored a car battery as much as I have this one in the last 2 weeks so I don't really know whether there is any natural loss of voltage over time without a parasitic loss.

As for parasitic losses, the only thought that I have is the cigarette lighter (always "hot" so to speak). When I was installing the radio, I measured 11.9 V at the feed wire to the back of the cigarette lighter. When I tried to measure the voltage *IN* the cigarette lighter base, all I got was 0.5V which was very confusing. Nothing warm in that area but based on current events, it warrants another look.

Thanks for the all comments and hints guys. I need them to figure this out (??!!)



Edited by 56D500boy 2017-10-08 10:43 AM
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-10-08 11:48 PM (#550007 - in reply to #549163)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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Location: So. California
You can hook up an ammeter between your battery post and your cable. Just make sure to use the highest setting first in case it is pulling a lot of current. Then notch it down to lower settings to get better accuracy.

I have found that the #1 reason for your battery to drain while sitting is from the hydraulic brake switch. Once you measure the current draw with an ammeter, disconnect the hydraulic brake switch and measure again to see if the problem goes away.
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-10-09 12:51 AM (#550010 - in reply to #550007)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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I was looking (just looking) at that switch this afternoon, just before I put the car away. BUT I thought if there was a bleed at the switch, I would see a flicker of light in the taillights. No?

In any event, I will try the ammeter trick tomorrow.

Thanks for the hints.

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Powerflite
Posted 2017-10-09 10:26 AM (#550024 - in reply to #550010)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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Location: So. California
No, it doesn't light the tail lights because it takes the power line and drains it directly to ground through the master cylinder.
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-10-09 10:52 AM (#550026 - in reply to #550024)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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Powerflite - 2017-10-09 10:26 AM
No, it doesn't light the tail lights because it takes the power line and drains it directly to ground through the master cylinder.


Ah SO!! Hmmm....I put a NOS switch on my new master cylinder back in the fall and I thought that I had put gas-proof (yellow) teflon tape on the threads.

That would suck.



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56D500boy
Posted 2017-10-09 1:34 PM (#550036 - in reply to #550026)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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56D500boy - 2017-10-09 10:52 AM
Ah SO!! Hmmm....I put a NOS switch on my new master cylinder back in the fall and I thought that I had put gas-proof (yellow) teflon tape on the threads.
That would suck.


But on the bright side, *IF* that is the issue I would have one less reason to not go dual channel Master Cylinder

Looks like the Cardone 13-1323M (manual, drum/drum) is still available and cheap. Looks like it would bolt right up



Previous thread: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=59648&...
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-10-09 8:40 PM (#550069 - in reply to #550007)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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Powerflite - 2017-10-08 11:48 PM You can hook up an ammeter between your battery post and your cable. Just make sure to use the highest setting first in case it is pulling a lot of current. Then notch it down to lower settings to get better accuracy. I have found that the #1 reason for your battery to drain while sitting is from the hydraulic brake switch. Once you measure the current draw with an ammeter, disconnect the hydraulic brake switch and measure again to see if the problem goes away.


Okay. I tried to measure any parasitic current draw. I used my Digital MultiMeter (DMM) initially set at 200 mA. Connected it in line between the (+) post on the battery and the + battery cable. Nothing. Kept going down the scale. Still nothing. 0.000 mA

Not sure if my technique was correct though.

I had run the radio for a bit while I painted the other half of the inside of the trunk so when I went to start the car to put it back in the garage I was down to about 12.6V. Started right up nicely. I left it on fast idle for awhile and checked the voltage under charging. 13.9-14.1 at the Armature terminal on the generator. 13.6-13.7 at the battery. So we know the generator is working.

Drove the car a mile or two ("around the block") and put it the garage. Enough voltage obsession for the day.

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56D500boy
Posted 2017-10-13 1:48 PM (#550239 - in reply to #550069)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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Location: Lower Mainland BC
Sorry for the update but....

Didn't start the car for a couple of days due to cold and wet weather. Nice day today so I thought that I would work outside on the trunk (actually *IN* the trunk)

Went to start the car. Two hard cranks and then the battery was done.

Checked the voltage: 12.38 V (which isn't *that* bad)

Back on the charger. I guess I need to look harder for that parastic loss. Has to be related to the cigarette lighter.



Edited by 56D500boy 2017-10-13 1:49 PM
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-10-14 4:18 PM (#550297 - in reply to #550239)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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When I left the car last night, the battery was reading 13.15 V on my DMM.

This morning (cool temps), it read 12.89 V (not sure if the drop was parasitic loss or temperature related).

I left the car for a couple of hours while I went down to the border to pick-up a new to me and very nice used hood "Vee". Score!

Came back and measured 12.82 V. Hmmm....

Started the car pretty quickly (like half a revolution - Vroom).

Shut off the engine. Measured 12.38V at the battery.

An hour later, the battery had recovered to 12.81 V. Hmm...

Came in for lunch and to check the parts diagrams because I suspect the issue is the cigarette lighter shell which I re-installed in the "new" radio surround a few weeks ago. I don't think there is supposed to be an insulating rubber washer because the lighter needs a ground (just a single wire to the back of the shell). See diagrams below.

I am not sure how the voltage bleed would occur (I have the actual lighter out of the shell for the past week or so). The shell and clamp is called out to section 8-20-10. The PN seems to be 1752 277.



Edited by 56D500boy 2017-10-14 4:22 PM




(56DodgeRadioSurroundDuringInstallionShowingCigaretteLigher.jpg)



(55-56InstrumentPanelDiagramWithCallOuts.jpg)



(55-56CigaretteLighterShellAndClamp.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments 56DodgeRadioSurroundDuringInstallionShowingCigaretteLigher.jpg (190KB - 5 downloads)
Attachments 55-56InstrumentPanelDiagramWithCallOuts.jpg (210KB - 5 downloads)
Attachments 55-56CigaretteLighterShellAndClamp.jpg (197KB - 5 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-10-16 12:59 AM (#550363 - in reply to #550297)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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Location: Lower Mainland BC
Sorry if this is boring. Maybe eventually I will figure it out.

12.82 V at the battery this morning. Started the car (easily) and moved it out of the garage into the sun to warm up (some trunk painting to do). Then my wife and I went for Sushi (Box C) for an hour.

When I returned I checked the voltage. 12.82 V. Decided to check the cigarette lighter one more time.

Surprise surprise. I did get a 0.7V reading but after moving the (+) problem a bit down there, I got 12.82V just like at the battery. I thought that was a good thing. Ironically, just yesterday I ordered a NOS lighter shell and clamp from Len Dawson (to cure the problem - might not be a problem). Oh well.

I didn't run the radio while I was out messing about with the trunk and the footwells.

Just before I started the car to put it back in the garage, the voltage at the battery was 12.79V (a drop of 0.02V over a few hours). Not sure if that is significant or not.

I need to borrow a better multimeter with easier way to measure current flow out of the battery.



Edited by 56D500boy 2017-10-16 1:00 AM
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ttotired
Posted 2017-10-16 6:04 PM (#550411 - in reply to #549163)
Subject: Re: Hard Starting 315 Hemi -12V neg ground system



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I just love these threads.....

Parasitic draw is easy to test, disconnect 1 lead off the battery (don't matter which one), connect a test light (one that has about a 2 or 3 watt bulb in it) between the battery lead and the battery.

With everything off (as if your parking it up, including shutting the doors) does the light light up, no, move on, there is no draw. If it does, with both ends of the light still attached, touch the battery lead to the battery and then let it off, is the light still on, no, no leaking power (may have been the clock recharging or a capacitor in the radio). If the light is still on, but its dull, most likely its a radio memory and will not cause your problem, if its bright, then start tracking the fault by disconnecting things one at a time (if its not the problem, reconnect it strait away so you don't end up with a car that nothing works on) until the light goes off or changes and then you know where the problem is.

But honestly, I havnt read all of the threads on here, but it sounds like your battery is no good or undersized or maybe a shorted starter motor, but without being able to test it, I (like you) will only be guessing

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