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Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look
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backbord
Posted 2017-10-21 7:47 PM (#550765)
Subject: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look


Member

Posts: 19

Location: Germany

Hello folks!

I ran into a problem which turned out to be difficult to track down and I hope that you can give me some advice.
Regarding my 1960 Chrysler Windsor.

What happened?

Some weeks ago, I took a longer journey. I was driving constantly at speeds of 80 - 120 km/h for 3 hours and then made a stop.

A bit of vapor smell was always present because of the open ventilation in this car. After some time, I felt that the vapor smell became more intense and suddenly it smelled like burnt rubber. I decided to pull off the road, thinking that some line was touching the exhaust. Before we arrived in the parking position, the engine stalled. It would not turn on again until the engine had cooled down for an hour.
When I opened the hood there were lots of vapor coming out of the ventilation cap - more than I had seen before.

After some time, when the engine had cooled down, I tried again to start and the engine ran again.
I drove another distance, when I started to hear a knocking sound. When I looked at the instruments, I saw that the oil pressure was gone and the engine temperature was up more than usual. I pulled off the road again, turned off the engine and waited again till it cooled down.

I tried another time. The oil pressure was back when the engine was cool, but after a short distance the temperature was up again and the oil pressure was gone.

Time for the breakdown service!
I had the car transported to my house and now I'm trying to find out, what to fix.

What we found out:

Possibly, there was an issue with the oil pressure regulator valve. It was stuck and I guess, the whole pressure went through the bypass passage.
We had it out and cleaned. Afterwards, we got pressure at the instrument while spinning the oil pump with a drill.

With the valve covers off, we tested if oil is getting up there. We turned the engine over to bring the crankshaft into other positions. First, there was almost no oil on the passenger side, but suddenly there was quite a lot flowing out. I believe that the passage could have been clogged, because the head was almost dry there.
The driver side was wet from the beginning, but we never achieved a strong flow compared to the passenger side. At least, there were a few drops coming out.
We also took off the oil pump. It looks good from the inside, nothing I would be worried about.

What remains unclear:

When I start the engine, there is almost no oil pressure (at the gauge). The pump seems to work, though.

Even worse: While we ran the engine for testing, the engine developed a pulsing, screeching noise! It's pretty loud.
I fear that a pushrod or a piston does not get (enough) oil.

To keep the damage at a minimum, I do not want to start the engine until this issue is solved ...

Is there a chance to track down these issues without removing the engine? Diagnosing a clogged passage or whatever... ?
Where is the connection between these issues?
Any ideas and suggestions welcome!

Thanks to all of you

Maik

Update: The noise sounds like in this video!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCFQsRuEQYs



Edited by backbord 2017-10-21 8:02 PM
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mstrug
Posted 2017-10-21 7:58 PM (#550766 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look



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You can do a compression check on the cylinders, pressure check the radiator, block, take off the valve covers and look. Engine is probably 'toast'. Take off pan and lower bearings; probably scored. Borescope the cylinders; probably dry and scratched. Sounds like a full rebuild including a hot tanking is in order. Get a quality oil pump. Don't use the old one.
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58coupe
Posted 2017-10-21 9:31 PM (#550771 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look



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It sounds like a bearing problem to me, main bearings can make a sound like you describe and seize the engine. It may then turn over when cool. Oil is delivered up to the rocker shafts through a passage that runs through the block and the heads. It could be plugged on one side or you just may not have enough oil pressure to push it up. I agree with Marc, overhaul time.
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GaryS
Posted 2017-10-22 7:47 AM (#550779 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look



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I had a 340 that began to screech. Then engine run, but was tight. It was a spun main bearing that seriously gouged the crankshaft journal.
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wizard
Posted 2017-10-22 8:31 AM (#550780 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look



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A spun bearing sounds like a plausible reason. Pull the center link and then remove the oil pan - now you can lift one main bearing cap at a time and check.

Seems like some bearing residue is blocking the oil flow to one cylinder bank and the gallery.

Please update your profile with your location, this is a good thing for to get help from someone locally, parts or technical advices.
As you refer to kilometers per hour, I'd guess Europe and perhaps Germany or Sweden?

3 hours is absolutely no problem for for marching in 80 - 120 km/hour - I've done 7 hours many, many times with pauses for refueling the car and ourselves.

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Powerflite
Posted 2017-10-22 9:55 AM (#550786 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look



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I suddenly lost oil pressure too in my '58 DeSoto. The car ran like garbage because the lifters were dry. After I broke the blockage free by turning the pump fast, I had a low end knock. Rebuild time. Losing oil pressure is never good.
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big m
Posted 2017-10-22 10:59 AM (#550787 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look



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A rod or main bearing will make that screeching sound when starved for oil, usually because it's welding itself to the crankshaft from friction heat.

---John
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rockerarm
Posted 2017-10-22 1:18 PM (#550803 - in reply to #550771)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look



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Is the water pump working OK..... belt slipping and squealing...?

A cam bearing will make a squealing sound if dry also.

If it's a bearing squeal it's to late. Pull the engine and remanufacture it.

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backbord
Posted 2017-10-22 7:32 PM (#550815 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look


Member

Posts: 19

Location: Germany
First of all, thanks for all replies!

I think the water pump works, the radiator becomes hot after the thermostat opens (I tried this before the noise appeared).
The noise is undoubtedly coming from inside the engine. Sounds like metal parts moving against each other.

Powerflite is possibly right, could be similar in my case. This was the first ride over a longer distance since I bought the car. I imagine that the constant driving released some dirt inside the block. The oil was okay in color before the trip and now it is plain black.

Most of you voted for the bearings - I try take a look at these. I wanted to drain the oil anyway.
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Shep
Posted 2017-10-22 8:30 PM (#550816 - in reply to #550815)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look



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Take the oil filter apart, look for metal debris, that'll tell you the good or bad news.
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60 dart
Posted 2017-10-22 11:43 PM (#550826 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look



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my 61 fury had that screech one day coming back from the parts store . little known to me , the oil pressure line was broke and the odd thing , there was no warning of any kind . stopping at a red light the
noise started and continued after stopping . a couple hundred more feet there was a BP station . so we stopped checked the oil . 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 quarts later it was back to full . through some dealing i got rid of the fury
and the 318 poly motor ended up in a 60 dodge stock car . ran 4 hard races clinton pa track before it let loose . i told em it wouldn't last but oh well -----------------------------------------------------later


ps. that was in 1969

Edited by 60 dart 2017-10-22 11:44 PM
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backbord
Posted 2017-10-23 3:17 PM (#550871 - in reply to #550826)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look


Member

Posts: 19

Location: Germany
@60_dart:
Was the noise still present after filling up some oil?
I was planning to refill the engine with new oil and at least try again if this makes a difference, but my expectations are low...

Update:
After diving deeper into the topic I also think it is a spun bearing.
Which bearings (if any) can be accessed with the engine in the car?

Edited by backbord 2017-10-23 6:46 PM
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60 dart
Posted 2017-10-23 11:44 PM (#550913 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look



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stopped after the second quart . drove it probably another 500mi . wish i had it today . rock solid body , new top , rebuilt torqueflite , really nice chrome , fancy steering wheel
and that space age speedo -------------------------------------------later
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GaryS
Posted 2017-10-24 7:55 AM (#550922 - in reply to #550871)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look



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I've removed the pan on several cars and trucks without pulling the engine, but most are difficult. Motor mounts have to be unbolted and the engine jacked up, which sometimes causes interference issues with other parts like distributors, valve covers, brake parts, heater housing, etc. Some cars require steering parts to be loosened or removed. Then the engine has to be turned by hand so the crank is in the right position to get the most clearance at every step of the pan removal. When you go through all the pain, you'll discover that the crank is probably gouged and needs to be reground. I've seen cranks ground and polished while in the car, but the repair was never long-lasting.

It's just one opinion, but do yourself a favor and pull the engine. If it has a spun bearing, it most likely has a lot of wear on other parts. A hoist is cheap to rent and with the engine out, you can repair it the proper way.
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backbord
Posted 2017-10-25 1:43 PM (#551022 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look


Member

Posts: 19

Location: Germany
Well, guess what happened ...
We changed the oil yesterday and after a few cranks, the noise was gone!

I still cannot believe it. And I have no idea, why. There was plenty of oil in the engine before. But after the change, the horrible sound was gone. At least for now.

But: It's too good to last.
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60 Imp
Posted 2017-10-26 8:06 AM (#551067 - in reply to #551022)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look


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Location: North Australia
That engine is talking to you! You just need to listen

You might be lucky, but I would pull it down without running it again. You just might get away with minor parts only to refresh it.

Steve.
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backbord
Posted 2017-10-26 4:01 PM (#551103 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look


Member

Posts: 19

Location: Germany
Steve, actually one should listen when the old girl is talking

An engine checkup and rebuild is still on my To-Do-list for sure. I don't want this to happen again or even worse. But: some peace of mind for the moment.
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-10-26 4:30 PM (#551108 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look



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It is possible that the screeching came from the intermediate shaft that drives the oil pump, or from a rocker, or lifter, or something else up top. When you refill with oil, then that component gets oiled and the problem is temporarily solved. I guess another possibility is if the filter was mostly plugged. Changing the filter would solve that too. But those are the only scenarios that I could think of where the problem would be solved by changing the oil. I would pull the valve covers and make sure you are getting oil up to the rockers and the galleys are all clear. If it was a problem up top, fixing it wouldn't necessarily involve rebuilding the motor.

Edited by Powerflite 2017-10-26 4:32 PM
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backbord
Posted 2017-10-28 6:04 AM (#551220 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look


Member

Posts: 19

Location: Germany
To be sure, I need to open the valve covers and check if both sides are wet now. But I also think that it was a lifter or pushrod, something that moves periodically.
Anyway, we ran the engine yesterday afternoon without that screeching sound appearing. After readjusting the distributor timing the knocking sound from the beginning was present again. It gets louder during deceleration. ==> Obviously a problem with a connecting rod bearing.

Btw: Is "main bearing" the same in English?

We'll pull the oil pan and see if there is anything we can do about this.

Thanks, Maik
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Shep
Posted 2017-10-28 7:32 AM (#551221 - in reply to #551220)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look



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Yes, main bearings are the crank shaft bearings.
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backbord
Posted 2017-11-10 3:45 PM (#551991 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look


Member

Posts: 19

Location: Germany
We managed to pull the oil pan and have a look at these things.
You were right, it is quite difficult to get the oil pan off without removing the engine. A motor hoist and motor stand are on my wish list now.

The engine had two spun rod bearings (cylinder 3 and 4). There was enough play one could actually SEE that the bearings were damaged.
We replaced all bearings and the oil pump and the car is running at the moment. But the surface on the 2nd crank was a bit rough and there is still a knocking sound when the engine reaches operating temperature.

I guess the engine needs a lot of love this winter!
The engine is a 383 RB and my investigations showed that parts could be difficult to find. I plan to replace it with a 1968 383 B to keep the car driveable while doing the rebuild on the original engine. Any comments?
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58coupe
Posted 2017-11-11 10:09 AM (#552023 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look



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With the 62 and newer 383 it will not bolt up to your original trans. Actually the trans. will bolt to the engine but the torque converter won't. I don't think anyone makes an adapter to do this easily since the T.Q. uses studs to secure it to the crank. The 383 RB crank will not fit the 383 without much modification, (longer stroke). Your best way to keep it running would be to repair the original engine.
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1960fury
Posted 2017-11-11 10:38 AM (#552025 - in reply to #552023)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look



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58coupe - 2017-11-11 10:09 AM

The 383 RB crank will not fit the 383 without much modification, (longer stroke). Your best way to keep it running would be to repair the original engine.


its not (only) the stroke, its the larger crankshaft bearings.
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backbord
Posted 2017-11-15 5:10 PM (#552312 - in reply to #552023)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look


Member

Posts: 19

Location: Germany
58coupe - 2017-11-10 4:09 PM

With the 62 and newer 383 it will not bolt up to your original trans. Actually the trans. will bolt to the engine but the torque converter won't.....


I was told that all big block engines were interchangeable, concerning the outer connections, though the internal parts can be very different. But if the torque converter does not bolt to the engine, this won't help here.

If I get you right, the problem is the crank end, which is different for the 383 RB?
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1960fury
Posted 2017-11-15 5:18 PM (#552314 - in reply to #552312)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look



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backbord - 2017-11-15 5:10 PM

58coupe - 2017-11-10 4:09 PM

With the 62 and newer 383 it will not bolt up to your original trans. Actually the trans. will bolt to the engine but the torque converter won't.....


I was told that all big block engines were interchangeable, concerning the outer connections, though the internal parts can be very different. But if the torque converter does not bolt to the engine, this won't help here.

If I get you right, the problem is the crank end, which is different for the 383 RB?


its not RB/B its pre 62 big block and post 61 big block. they changed the crankshaft flange for the 62 modell year (fall 61) and RB cranks do not fit B engines without mods and B engine cranks never fit RB engines.
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-11-15 5:26 PM (#552316 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look



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Yes, and the same applies to small blocks too.
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matte
Posted 2017-11-18 2:13 PM (#552613 - in reply to #552316)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look



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My car came with a 1969 383 with a mild cam and it is bolted to a 1962 pushbutton aluminium TF. Just for future reference, what would they have done to mate them together?

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wizard
Posted 2017-11-18 3:24 PM (#552620 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look



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My guess is actually nothing - the Engine should fit the '62 trans without any modifications
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backbord
Posted 2018-01-10 9:37 PM (#556022 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look


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Posts: 19

Location: Germany
First, a happy new year to all of you!

We managed to remove the engine from the car and get the crankshaft out. I brought it to a machine shop to have it repaired.
But the mechanic measured the worn crank and told me, that I would need at least .050 undersize bearings on the rods and .030 on the main bearings.
I am not sure if the crankshaft can be saved - before I found .050 bearings, I thought it was junk. But anyways - the shop recommended me to look for a new crankshaft as the chance of failure is very high.

I found this on ebay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Chrysler-Mopar-440-Eagle-Forged-Steel-Crank...
Can someone with more experience verify that this crankshaft fits my engine?
Remember, it is a 1960 Raised Block 383, the flange has 8 holes.
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-01-10 9:56 PM (#556023 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look



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None of the new cranks available will have the extension distance of the '61 and earlier motors. If you use a newer crank, you will have to either change the transmission to a newer version or use some kind of homemade adapter between the crank & torque converter, which I think will be difficult, if not impossible.

You can use your original crank if you offset grind the rods to big block chevy journal sizes and use H-beam rods and custom pistons. You might even get a little extra stroke out of it. Another option to keep your crank is to pay to have the rod journals welded up and then re-ground. This is what most people do in this situation. If your machine shop doesn't know how to do that, talk to a different shop.

Edited by Powerflite 2018-01-10 10:01 PM
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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2018-01-11 2:01 PM (#556061 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look



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The crank will physically fit the engine, but not to the transmission.
Change the transmission to a newer ('62, '63 or '64, including the different crossmember) and everything will fit together again.
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backbord
Posted 2018-07-08 7:43 PM (#566306 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look


Member

Posts: 19

Location: Germany
I have good news...
1st: The shop managed to grind all journals to .040 / .050, for which I could get suiting bearings - the biggest ones available.
2nd: The engine is reassembled, back in the car and RUNNING! :D

We took the car for a short test drive and it ran okay.

But then again, there are some issues:
While dialing in the distributor without vacuum, the engine is running well, but once I apply the vacuum line to the canister, the engine starts to run bad. In fact, the whole body starts to shake, like there was an imbalance. I guess that the timing advances too much, into the compression stroke, but I really cannot explain why. Of course, we used a new timing chain and sprockets, you could tell that the old one had lengthened.
Should I set the initial advance lower, like 5° instead of 10°?
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-07-08 9:30 PM (#566311 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look



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First check to make sure you don't have a vacuum leak in your system. Use a hand-held vacuum tester and check for leak-down.

Edited by Powerflite 2018-07-08 9:31 PM
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Shep
Posted 2018-07-09 12:49 PM (#566344 - in reply to #566311)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look



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Make sure you do not have the vac advance connected to manifold vacuum, should be ported vacuum, pretty sure on this.
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1960fury
Posted 2018-07-09 1:51 PM (#566352 - in reply to #566306)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look



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backbord - 2018-07-08 7:43 PM


Should I set the initial advance lower, like 5° instead of 10°?


No.

I second what Shep said. Ported vacuum, not manifold vacuum. Ported vacuum does not provide any vacuum at idle, so this could very likely be the problem.
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backbord
Posted 2018-07-09 7:14 PM (#566372 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look


Member

Posts: 19

Location: Germany
OK, I will check for leaks first and then I will have a look at the connections.
If I remember correctly, there is a small connector directly on the manifold, where we attached the distributor vacuum hose ---> manifold vacuum.

I'll let you know...
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1960fury
Posted 2018-07-09 7:28 PM (#566374 - in reply to #566372)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look



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backbord - 2018-07-09 7:14 PM

OK, I will check for leaks first and then I will have a look at the connections.
If I remember correctly, there is a small connector directly on the manifold, where we attached the distributor vacuum hose ---> manifold vacuum.

I'll let you know...


Get a shop manual...
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backbord
Posted 2018-07-09 9:21 PM (#566378 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look


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Posts: 19

Location: Germany
Sid, I already have a FSM, right here in front of me
It says: Connect the vacuum lead to the distributor. No hint where it is going.

I have to check when I am at the garage again.
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1960fury
Posted 2018-07-10 8:51 AM (#566402 - in reply to #566378)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look



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backbord - 2018-07-09 9:21 PM

Sid, I already have a FSM, right here in front of me
It says: Connect the vacuum lead to the distributor. No hint where it is going.

I have to check when I am at the garage again.



What year of FSM? The fuel section of the manual shows the ported vacuum source. I will have to check, but I would be surprised if there isn't a picture of the carb with the vacuum source connected, actually the carb, with its connector, is self-explanatory.
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backbord
Posted 2018-07-10 9:31 AM (#566403 - in reply to #566402)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look


Member

Posts: 19

Location: Germany
1960fury - 2018-07-09 2:51 PM

What year of FSM? The fuel section of the manual shows the ported vacuum source. I will have to check, but I would be surprised if there isn't a picture of the carb with the vacuum source connected, actually the carb, with its connector, is self-explanatory. :)


I have the 1960 Manual here
Maybe that changed a bit through the years, I guess that you have a manual for '62.
The drawing of the AFB carburetor actually shows a vacuum port, while the BBD drawing does not name it. My car is equipped with a BBD carburetor.

Meanwhile I had a look at my photos and I can confirm that there is also a vacuum line at the BBD carburetor. I would wonder if we used another connection than this one.
I will try to get to the garage this evening

Thank you guys!
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backbord
Posted 2018-07-11 12:34 PM (#566469 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look


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Posts: 19

Location: Germany
OK, I was there today and the vacuum canister is actually connected to the carburetor. My memories played a trick on me.
That means: The vacuum advance is already connected to ported vacuum.
I wait for a friend to bring over his vacuum gauge, then I will check for leaks. Any other ideas, meanwhile?
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backbord
Posted 2018-09-19 10:59 AM (#570381 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look


Member

Posts: 19

Location: Germany
OK, update on this.
It has nothing to do with the vacuum advance. With the vacuum advance attached, the noise just seems to come up way earlier.
I cleaned and checked the hydraulic tappets and took a video. The engine runs very smooth now, except for the on and off ticking that comes up again and again.
I suspect that one or more valves are sticking.
Have a look and tell me what you think.
https://youtu.be/-93mrvRgOKs
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-09-19 11:26 AM (#570385 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look



Expert

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Location: So. California
That does sound like sticking valves. Does it react weird when you shut it off, like it shuts off irradically? I wouldn't run it any longer until you pull the valve covers and rockers. Spray down the valves with carburetor cleaner and hit them with a soft rubber mallet to work it down through the valve guide. Once they are all completely free & clean, then oil them up individually, and hit them with the soft mallet again. Then put it back together.
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backbord
Posted 2018-09-19 4:45 PM (#570402 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: Re: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look


Member

Posts: 19

Location: Germany
I didn't notice any weird behaviour while shutting off. The engine runs good, it only stumbles a little.
I will try to follow your suggestions and report back. Thank you :-)
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Stroller
Posted 2018-10-12 1:55 PM (#571570 - in reply to #550765)
Subject: RE: Screeching engine sound and no clue where to look


Veteran

Posts: 107
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Last engine I heard screeching was a 360 in my '79, right before the tell tale cloud of blue. The thrust bearing was hammered. And yeah it had good oil pressure too. I have seen so many "re-built" engines that should have never been put back in service before actually doing them right. As engine heat up clearances changed. Oil pressure comes from bearing clearances, not volume. So sorry to hear another old engine is maybe on the way out. But yes if oil was changed and sound went away it will come back. That engine needs pulled and checked. Some old eye balls and bearing crush will tell what's happening.
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