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Original Dodge D501
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-11-30 5:48 PM (#574438 - in reply to #574424)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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1959 Belvedere Conv - 2018-11-30 11:33 AM

... I would think that they (Chrysler) would assign a special part number for this non-Industrial/Marine head that would have the Sodium filled valves to differentiate it from a standard 354 Hemi Head.... .


Keep in mind that we are really talking about casting numbers here, not part numbers. The numbers quoted in Tex Smith's book are casting numbers. The part number would have certainly been different, but you wouldn't find that number anywhere on the part. The casting number refers to which casting was used, and that was likely the same as the standard '56 354 hemi head.
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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-11-30 8:02 PM (#574445 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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<p>If a true 501 owner back in the day had a cracked head and needed it replaced...How would he do that? Parts dept order up parts based on Part Number not casting number, he would want the specific head that he had before with the sodium valves installed. How would he do that? Not by casting number I believe. That 501 owner wants the correct head, not a standard 354 Hemi head. just sayin' what I would do in a situation like that. I would like to build a 501 Tribute car (or clone) but in no way would say it was real. The data tag would prove it out that my car is a 325 poly head automatic that has a 354 dual quad Hemi in it "Like" a D501, No fraud intended. I would love to buy a true D501 Convertible (and I will) once one pops up but until then I will come as close as possible to the real McCoy.</p><p>If I can build my 354 Hemi with the correct heads (if they are out there) and Cam profile (doable) and correct compression with a low clearance, part number correct, dual quad as close as I can to the real thing till I buy one. Just in case anyone wants too know why I am asking so many questions on this subject. The best thing about a Tribute car is that you can drive it all the time, which is what I do with my 59 Belvedere Convert with the 59 Chrysler 300E 413RB dual quad in it. No false pretense but just has the biggest Engine I could put in it of that year. it was a 318 4bbl car that was missing its engine so I could do it up the way I wanted it to be. I just thought all of this info was etched in stone but it isn't.</p><p>But collectively I think we can move forward with a few more questions answered by real D501 owners for all to share the uniqueness of this car. Thanks all for listening to me on this.. My intentions are honorable on this subject.</p>

Edited by 1959 Belvedere Conv 2018-11-30 8:03 PM
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Swept57
Posted 2018-12-01 6:22 AM (#574469 - in reply to #574445)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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1959 Belvedere Conv - 2018-11-30 8:02 PM

I would love to buy a true D501 Convertible (and I will) once one pops up but until then I will come as close as possible to the real McCoy.


A D-501 Convertible is for sale at BJ Scottsdale in January. It is the real deal, but has an amateurish restoration done to it. I think it previously sold for $70K. The other two remaining convertibles are not likely to come up for sale anytime soon. So here is your chance!

Edit: As Mike pointed out below, that is not the the same convert I thought it was. So there are potentially two that will bounce around the auction houses.

Edited by Swept57 2018-12-01 1:49 PM
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Swept57
Posted 2018-12-01 10:38 AM (#574481 - in reply to #574403)
Subject: RE: Original Dodge D501



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57burb - 2018-11-30 9:29 AM

David aka 'Swept57', do you know the part number for the cylinder heads on the D501 engines? John aka '1959 Belvedere Conv' was asking me about that, and I wasn't able to find the info in any old threads.

Tex Smith's book The Complete Chrysler Hemi lists part numbers for Chrysler-based Hemi engines; here are all of the published PNs for low deck Hemi heads in that 1956-57 period:

1956 all passenger car 354 - 1619 823
'54-6 truck and industrial 331 - 1634 864
'57-8 truck and industrial 354 - 1733 463
'57-9 truck and industrial 354 - 1730 438

Does your engine use one of those casting numbers? Or is there a mystery PN for the D501s?

It appears that "all" '56-8 354 blocks are 1619 829, does this jive with your blocks? thanks-


Danny, I will be at my garage this weekend, and I'll get the head info. I will say this, all of the major castings are 57 parts with consistent 57 casting dates. There were no "leftover" parts used or 56 or earlier only castings with 57 casting dates.

Edited by Swept57 2018-12-01 11:44 AM
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Mike McCandless
Posted 2018-12-01 1:36 PM (#574483 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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That’s a different 501 vert. This has had a full restoration. They were wanting 300k privately.
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Swept57
Posted 2018-12-01 1:46 PM (#574486 - in reply to #574483)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Mike McCandless - 2018-12-01 1:36 PM

That’s a different 501 vert. This has had a full restoration. They were wanting 300k privately.


Ah, you are right Mike. That is a different serial number, so that is 4 known remaining converts. Do you happen to know the engine serial number Mike?

Edited by Swept57 2018-12-01 1:52 PM
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1959 Belvedere Conv
Posted 2018-12-04 7:54 PM (#574670 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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<p>Well, I got a kitchen pass to go down to Scottsdale from my Wife but I am NOT to buy the 501 convertible till I restore my own 57 CRL convert first that I bought a few months ago. Makes sense, but how often do these come up for sale. So I will be taking a lot of pictures of this 501 Convertible to document it while I am down there. I will share any pictures I take to anyone who would like to see more of this. I am also trying to compile a build list from everyone's input on what goes into a 501 build. I will need everyone's help in compiling this list and from those lucky guys who actually own a D-501 whose input will be invaluable in getting this documented correctly.</p>

Edited by 1959 Belvedere Conv 2018-12-04 8:33 PM
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-12-04 8:41 PM (#574674 - in reply to #574670)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Take pictures of suspension parts, front and rear, sway bars and wheels. Then close up motor parts like carb linkage, brackets etc. would be good. Finally, a large picture of the 501 emblem. Have fun!
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-12-05 5:21 PM (#574721 - in reply to #574674)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Nathan. Can you see with your cars if a Chrysler steering knuckle (spindle) will interchange with a Dodge?
Thanks,
Greg
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-12-05 5:26 PM (#574722 - in reply to #574721)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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As I recall even the ball joints are larger at both ends.
Greg
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-12-05 5:29 PM (#574723 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Do you mean Chrysler or Imperial?

Sure, I'll take a look at it for the Chrysler. I don't own any Imperials. I do know that the 4 bolts that mount the steering linkage & backing plate are the same. Otherwise the brakes wouldn't interchange & the disc kit would only work on one of them. But the disc conversion will work on all '57-'61 Dodge, Plymouth, DeSoto & Chrysler. Probably not Imperial.

I just found out today that the idler arm & pitman arm are different between Dodge & Chrysler. But the centerlink & tie rods look the same. However, the part numbers for the center links are different so I'm not sure what is different about them.

Edited by Powerflite 2018-12-05 5:49 PM
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StillOutThere
Posted 2018-12-05 5:58 PM (#574724 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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There is one center link that fits Dodge and Plymouth length chassis. A second part number fits DeSoto and Chrysler length chassis (and I think Impl also).
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-12-05 6:01 PM (#574725 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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I agree in terms of part numbers, but when I put them side-by-side, I can't find any difference. Maybe it is in the size of the holes? I didn't measure them so that is a possibility.
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StillOutThere
Posted 2018-12-05 6:04 PM (#574726 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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All mounting points are different between the part numbers, not the hole sizes. Of course the crossover comes in the DeSoto Firesweeps and Chrysler models built on the Dodge chassis.
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-12-05 7:50 PM (#574735 - in reply to #574726)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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We have heard that the 501 uses Imperial front end parts. I know Chrysler brakes will simply bolt up to a Dodge and I'm pretty sure Imperial front drums will fit Chrysler and Dodge front spindles by using larger bearings but I can't think of any other Imp front end parts that would fit a Dodge. The same larger bearings will allow Imp front drums fit a Chrysler.

Greg
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StillOutThere
Posted 2018-12-05 8:22 PM (#574737 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Out with the Dodge spindles ball joint to joint. In with the Imperial spindles and all brake parts. Add the HD torsion cars that are Dodge length (the DeS /Chrys /Impl bars are too long). That is front "Imperial suspension" in the 300C Road America cars and on the '57 501s.
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-12-05 10:23 PM (#574741 - in reply to #574737)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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StillOutThere - 2018-12-05 8:22 PM

Out with the Dodge spindles ball joint to joint. In with the Imperial spindles and all brake parts. Add the HD torsion cars that are Dodge length (the DeS /Chrys /Impl bars are too long). That is front "Imperial suspension" in the 300C Road America cars and on the '57 501s.


Thanks, Wayne. But, I think Dodge ball joint ends are a smaller diameter, upper and lower, than Chrysler and won't couple to that steering knuckle.

Anyway, Nathan maybe could compare them and shed some light on this.
Greg
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Stroller
Posted 2018-12-06 11:32 AM (#574773 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Hm interesting. Well my dad had a 501 long time ago. He stuck a 383 in it and went circle burning. Seems to me them factory built race cars are all over the place in prices I don't think you register them to drive without doing some changes. They were not stree legal for the most part. My '60 fury was kinda like that. The origianl owner ordered it in 1959 and when he took delivery he only had it 6 months then traded it back to dealer. My dad bought the car and my mom wanted to kill him, I was not born yet. I do remember the car from when I was a little kid and it was super fast and never lost a race. To me that era for Mopar was the precursor to what became the muscle cars. I bought the car from my dads estate back in '79 and it has been a chore to hold on to it this long.

As the wheels of the chryslers and imperials. I am not sure if they are different but since my '56 Imperial Crown Royal has the large studs it may make a difference. The lugs nuts are 7/8ths. Did the other chryslers have reverse lug threads on the other side?
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Swept57
Posted 2018-12-06 5:22 PM (#574801 - in reply to #574737)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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StillOutThere - 2018-12-05 8:22 PM

Out with the Dodge spindles ball joint to joint. In with the Imperial spindles and all brake parts. Add the HD torsion cars that are Dodge length (the DeS /Chrys /Impl bars are too long). That is front "Imperial suspension" in the 300C Road America cars and on the '57 501s.


That seems to be what was done, but I have a Chrysler memo that indicates that the spindle was modified, at least for the 501. I don't have an Imperial one to compare.
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-12-06 7:51 PM (#574807 - in reply to #574801)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Swept57 - 2018-12-06 5:22 PM

StillOutThere - 2018-12-05 8:22 PM

Out with the Dodge spindles ball joint to joint. In with the Imperial spindles and all brake parts. Add the HD torsion cars that are Dodge length (the DeS /Chrys /Impl bars are too long). That is front "Imperial suspension" in the 300C Road America cars and on the '57 501s.


That seems to be what was done, but I have a Chrysler memo that indicates that the spindle was modified, at least for the 501. I don't have an Imperial one to compare.


But you do have a regular Dodge one to compare it with! That would certainly help to identify the modifications.

Greg
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Swept57
Posted 2018-12-06 8:14 PM (#574809 - in reply to #574807)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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LD3 Greg - 2018-12-06 7:51 PM

Swept57 - 2018-12-06 5:22 PM

StillOutThere - 2018-12-05 8:22 PM

Out with the Dodge spindles ball joint to joint. In with the Imperial spindles and all brake parts. Add the HD torsion cars that are Dodge length (the DeS /Chrys /Impl bars are too long). That is front "Imperial suspension" in the 300C Road America cars and on the '57 501s.


That seems to be what was done, but I have a Chrysler memo that indicates that the spindle was modified, at least for the 501. I don't have an Imperial one to compare.


But you do have a regular Dodge one to compare it with! That would certainly help to identify the modifications.

Greg


Yes, but the memo says that a modified Imperial spindle was used on the 501. I would like to see a stock Imperial spindle to compare with to see exactly how it was modified for the 501 application.
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-12-06 8:34 PM (#574814 - in reply to #574809)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Swept57 - 2018-12-06 8:14 PM

LD3 Greg - 2018-12-06 7:51 PM

Swept57 - 2018-12-06 5:22 PM

StillOutThere - 2018-12-05 8:22 PM

Out with the Dodge spindles ball joint to joint. In with the Imperial spindles and all brake parts. Add the HD torsion cars that are Dodge length (the DeS /Chrys /Impl bars are too long). That is front "Imperial suspension" in the 300C Road America cars and on the '57 501s.


That seems to be what was done, but I have a Chrysler memo that indicates that the spindle was modified, at least for the 501. I don't have an Imperial one to compare.


But you do have a regular Dodge one to compare it with! That would certainly help to identify the modifications.

Greg


Yes, but the memo says that a modified Imperial spindle was used on the 501. I would like to see a stock Imperial spindle to compare with to see exactly how it was modified for the 501 application.


So would I! Easy for you to start determining the mods. Just compare the wrench size of the upper and lower ball joint castle nuts(the ones that secure the joints to the steering knuckle) for regular Dodge and 501.
Greg
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-12-07 10:43 AM (#574837 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Greg, I measured the Chrysler and Dodge spindles. The Chrysler uses larger ball joints. The threaded part of the studs on the Chrysler upper control arm are 9/16", and the studs on the Dodge are 1/2". The size of the socket needed to remove them are also different. 1.906" for the Dodge and 2.125" for the Chrysler.

Edited by Powerflite 2018-12-07 10:56 AM
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Mike McCandless
Posted 2018-12-07 11:22 AM (#574841 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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You guys just want to show up and go through lee's car lol
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-12-07 12:02 PM (#574844 - in reply to #574837)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Powerflite - 2018-12-07 10:43 AM

Greg, I measured the Chrysler and Dodge spindles. The Chrysler uses larger ball joints. The threaded part of the studs on the Chrysler upper control arm are 9/16", and the studs on the Dodge are 1/2". The size of the socket needed to remove them are also different. 1.906" for the Dodge and 2.125" for the Chrysler.


Thanks Nathan. Certainly no interchange between Dodge and Chrysler ball joints and steering knuckles and Imp. ball joints will likely be the same size as Chrysler. Interesting to hear from David.

Greg
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-12-07 12:07 PM (#574846 - in reply to #574841)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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Mike McCandless - 2018-12-07 11:22 AM

You guys just want to show up and go through lee's car lol


Thanks for the invitation Mike! We could stay for a few days and check out all your cars?! Fantastic collection, well done!

Greg
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Mike McCandless
Posted 2018-12-07 12:18 PM (#574847 - in reply to #551452)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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You guys think I'm joking, but if you guys ever got organized and wanted to spend time poking around a car, I'm sure we could make it happen.
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Swept57
Posted 2018-12-07 12:38 PM (#574852 - in reply to #574847)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501



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Mike McCandless - 2018-12-07 12:18 PM

You guys think I'm joking, but if you guys ever got organized and wanted to spend time poking around a car, I'm sure we could make it happen.


Yes! I spent a lot of time poking around Lee's car in his shop, but at the time there were questions I didn't even know to ask. I'd love to come down, but first I need to compile all my info into something coherent so I don't overlook anything. Thanks for the offer!
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2018-12-07 11:30 PM (#574881 - in reply to #574852)
Subject: Re: Original Dodge D501


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David,
With respect to the current front suspension topic, you don't need to compile anything. Just tell us the wrench size of the ball joint castle nuts of your 501! The results will be obvious and go a long way to tell the truth about these so-called mods to Imp steering knuckles.

I, too, have many, many photos of Lee's car taken both by myself and Neil all about 30years ago. You are correct. It is time to tabulate all available info.

Greg
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