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Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-11-12 8:05 PM (#552125)
Subject: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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While I am waiting for Stock Interiors/Auto Custom Carpet to modify my front carpet piece (topic of another thread), I am carrying on with preparing for the mounting of three-point front seat belts that I bought from Seat Belt Planet. The retractor is a "90/90" and supposedly will not be as annoying as the lap belt that I had, i.e. it will allow continuous pulling and adjusting without having to go totally back into the retractor if you don't quite pull enough the first time.

Installation involves mounting the lower retractor, the upper D-ring for the should belt portion and the receiving end that comes up between the crack in the front seat. I chose traditional chrome latches.

The upper mount consists of a 1.5" x 3" fairly thick metal plate that has been punched and tapped to hold a 7/16" x 20 bolt. It also has two holes used to hold the plate in place via rivets. The height of the 7/16" hole for the D-ring bolt is a function of the height of the driver. When I had the seat in the car, I had figured out where it needed to be. When I installed the plate yesterday, I moved it up about 1/4" from where I had planned. Mostly to make sure all of the plate was behind B-pillar material. I placed the plate on the exposed side of the B-pillar (cover off) and marked and punched the hole locations. Then I drilled two 3/16" holes for the rivets and a 1/2" hole for the 7/16" bolt to pass through. I then slid the plate up into the B-pillar cavity and blind riveted into place. One problem, the 3/16" diameter rivets I used were not quite long enough and there isn't a huge egg on the back-side of the plate. So I will have to find, purchase and install longer rivets (after drilling out the two that I put in).

The lower retractor mount has proved the most challenging. They want the retractor to run as vertical as possible on the centerline of the B-pillar but also suggest that closer to the B-pillar the better the aesthetics. Turns out because of the structure of the body, I can't get as close to the B-pillar as aesthetics would demand. However, the belt coming out of the retractor will run almost perfectly vertical where it will mount.

I started on the passenger side with a couple of 1/8" pilot holes to get the location figured out. Once I had it figured I drilled a pilot hole through the drivers side floor opposite the B-pillar (first checking that I was no where near the brake or fuel lines). Checking that first pilot hole from below I realized that I could move further towards the B-pillar. Second hole was drilled looked perfect so I drilled the needed 7/16" hole for the retractor angle bracket hold down bolt. Done. I then realized that I will have to bend the large backing washer so it fits up against the body work. Used on of the previous lap belt washers. Done. Trialled with one of the lap belt bolts (a longer one with lots of threads). I repeated the same process on the passenger side and mock-up the installation with a bent backing washer.

That done, it was time to try a couple of mock-up arrangements for the retractor and fixed end of the shoulder belt. For the first one arrangement, I mounted the retractor on the inboard vertical side of the angle bracket and the fixed end of the belt on the outboard vertical side of the bracket. While that would probably work, I decided to try an alternative arrangement where the fixed end is mounted to the horizontal portion of the angle bracket and the retractor is mounted on the outboard vertical side of the bracket. That moves the retractor slightly closer to the B-pillar.

The inboard receiver ends of the belt that goes through the front seat will be mounted through the same holes that were used previously for the equivalent lap belt ends.

Some photos to fit with the text above:



Edited by 56D500boy 2017-11-13 12:40 AM




(DaveFs56DodgeBillarUpperMountShowingMountingPlateBoltAndDringNotInstalled.jpg)



(DaveFs56DodgeBillarUpperMountDriversSideInstalled_1.jpg)



(DaveFs56DodgeBillarUpperMountDriversSideInstalled_2.jpg)



(DForgiesLeftBPillarTrialHoleNo1.jpg)



(DForgiesLeftBPillarTrialHoleNo2.jpg)



(DForgiesLeftBPillarTrialHoleNo2With7_16HoleBentWasherAndBolt.jpg)



(DForgiesRightBPillarWithTrialBoltAndBentWasher.jpg)



(DaveFs56DodgeBPillarLowerMountTrial_Upper.jpg)



(DForgiesBPillarMockUpOverView.jpg)



(DForgiesBPillarMockUpShowingUpperBeltGeneralAttachmentArea.jpg)



(DForgiesBPillarMockUpLowerShowingBeltAndRetractorArrangement.jpg)



(DForgiesBPillarMockUpLowerShowingAlternativeLocationForBeltTermination.jpg)



(DForgiesBPillarMockUpLowerShowingAlternativeRetractorLocation.jpg)



(DForgiesBPillarMockUpWithAlternativeRetractorAndBeltTerminationLocations.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments DaveFs56DodgeBillarUpperMountShowingMountingPlateBoltAndDringNotInstalled.jpg (96KB - 18 downloads)
Attachments DaveFs56DodgeBillarUpperMountDriversSideInstalled_1.jpg (150KB - 20 downloads)
Attachments DaveFs56DodgeBillarUpperMountDriversSideInstalled_2.jpg (114KB - 18 downloads)
Attachments DForgiesLeftBPillarTrialHoleNo1.jpg (184KB - 20 downloads)
Attachments DForgiesLeftBPillarTrialHoleNo2.jpg (137KB - 20 downloads)
Attachments DForgiesLeftBPillarTrialHoleNo2With7_16HoleBentWasherAndBolt.jpg (162KB - 18 downloads)
Attachments DForgiesRightBPillarWithTrialBoltAndBentWasher.jpg (165KB - 20 downloads)
Attachments DaveFs56DodgeBPillarLowerMountTrial_Upper.jpg (234KB - 20 downloads)
Attachments DForgiesBPillarMockUpOverView.jpg (197KB - 20 downloads)
Attachments DForgiesBPillarMockUpShowingUpperBeltGeneralAttachmentArea.jpg (210KB - 18 downloads)
Attachments DForgiesBPillarMockUpLowerShowingBeltAndRetractorArrangement.jpg (168KB - 19 downloads)
Attachments DForgiesBPillarMockUpLowerShowingAlternativeLocationForBeltTermination.jpg (239KB - 20 downloads)
Attachments DForgiesBPillarMockUpLowerShowingAlternativeRetractorLocation.jpg (212KB - 19 downloads)
Attachments DForgiesBPillarMockUpWithAlternativeRetractorAndBeltTerminationLocations.jpg (203KB - 15 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-11-13 11:27 AM (#552147 - in reply to #552125)
Subject: RE: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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56D500boy - 2017-11-12 8:05 PM That done, it was time to try a couple of mock-up arrangements for the retractor and fixed end of the shoulder belt. For the first one arrangement, I mounted the retractor on the inboard vertical side of the angle bracket and the fixed end of the belt on the outboard vertical side of the bracket. While that would probably work, I decided to try an alternative arrangement where the fixed end is mounted to the horizontal portion of the angle bracket and the retractor is mounted on the outboard vertical side of the bracket. That moves the retractor slightly closer to the B-pillar.


I spoke with the very helpful Steve Pekrul at Seat Belt Planet this AM and we went through the photos that I had emailed him on Friday (Alternative 1) and Sunday (Alternative 2) and he thought either way would be fine. He did say Alternative 2 with the chrome fixed end of the shoulder belt attached to the floor bolt is more common. He liked the way that the belt went vertical from the retractor and was not rubbing on anything. He didn't have problem with the modified (bent) anchor bolt washer.

I also ran an "Alternative 3" by him. This would be mounting the retractor very near to the base of the B pillar *ON* the pillar (using one of the 1.5" x 3" plates). He said that is a possibility *BUT* only if the belt between the retractor and the "D"-ring does not touch the B-pillar trim and risk abrasion. Not sure if it will or won't touch but I will mock-up that alternative as well.

Edited by 56D500boy 2017-11-13 11:28 AM
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DepsilonD
Posted 2017-11-13 1:14 PM (#552153 - in reply to #552125)
Subject: Re: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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Nice write-up Dave.
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-11-13 2:08 PM (#552161 - in reply to #552147)
Subject: RE: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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Your option 3 is how I did it in my '56 Plymouth. But I did have to reinforce the backside of that panel quite a bit to get it to work. The nice thing about doing it this way is it gets the seat belt out of the way for people to get into the back seat on a 2dr car. But a 4dr wouldn't matter as much. I used older style seat belts that have 2 anchor bolts at the bottom so that's why you see that bar hanging out behind it. I bought the seat belts in 2004 and that's how they designed them back then.

Edited by Powerflite 2017-11-13 2:10 PM




(LRCarpet.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments LRCarpet.jpg (194KB - 20 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-11-13 4:01 PM (#552168 - in reply to #552161)
Subject: RE: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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Thanks for the comments Dave and Nathan. I'm not sure about that lower retractor mount. Needs more testing.

In the meantime, I drilled out yesterday's 3/16" pop-rivets in the top (D-ring) mounting plate that were too short. Turns out that although they didn't mushroom at the back, they did deform and probably would have held the plate in place.

Nevermind that, peace of mind is more important. Went to Lowes and bought some Arrow brand 3/16" diameter x 1/4" (6 mm) grab aluminum rivets. Installed them just fine (actually needed two pulls, the first to start the mushrooming and the second to complete the mushrooming and break off the pin).

PSA: Be careful positioning and handling that plate:

1. Turns out that I had squished the dome light door switch wire between the plate and the B-pillar (no damage). I paid more attention the second time and made sure that that wire was free before and after the riveting.

2. When I removed the plate to examine the first rivets that I had installed, I fumbled the plate inside the B-pillar and it fell down the B-pillar. *BUT* not to the bottom of the B-pillar but into an outer hollow part of the B-pillar.
Luckily I have a number of magnetic parts retreivers and was able to pull the plate out on the second try. (Bullet dodged)

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Old Ray
Posted 2017-11-13 7:34 PM (#552187 - in reply to #552125)
Subject: RE: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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To my eyes, with one retina and two cataract surgeries, and way to many birthdays, the shoulder anchor location looks to low, .......or maybe the camera angle ?
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lozrox58
Posted 2017-11-13 11:40 PM (#552203 - in reply to #552125)
Subject: Re: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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Good write up. I was thinking the same as Old Ray. The height of the B pillar anchor does look too low. How high above your shoulder is the bolt?
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-11-14 12:43 AM (#552205 - in reply to #552125)
Subject: Re: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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It doesn't look too high to me. Looks about right, and I have installed 4 sets of 3-point belts in old cars now. Also, these seats sit pretty high off the floor compared to new seats.
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-11-14 2:35 AM (#552208 - in reply to #552205)
Subject: Re: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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Old Ray - 2017-11-13 7:34 PM
To my eyes, with one retina and two cataract surgeries, and way to many birthdays, the shoulder anchor location looks to low, .......or maybe the camera angle ? :)


lozrox58 - 2017-11-13 11:40 PM
Good write up. I was thinking the same as Old Ray. The height of the B pillar anchor does look too low. How high above your shoulder is the bolt?


Powerflite - 2017-11-14 12:43 AM
It doesn't look too high to me. Looks about right, and I have installed 4 sets of 3-point belts in old cars now. Also, these seats sit pretty high off the floor compared to new seats.


I was waiting for somebody to catch me out. The D-ring location shown in the mock-up photos was based on me just throwing the 1.5" x 3" threaded backing plate (with the D-ring bolt) into an existing OE 1" x 3" slot in the B-pillar. In actual fact, I mounted the D-ring mounting plate completely above that OE hole. The token location had the bolt in the backing plate at the bottom of the OE 1" x 3" slot so I think I end up about 5" or more above the token photo location.

The mock-up photo:



Reality:

Edited by 56D500boy 2017-11-14 2:41 AM




(DaveFs56DodgeBpillarUpperMountDriversSideInstalled_1.jpg)



(DaveFs56DodgeBpillarUpperMountDriversSideInstalled_2.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments DaveFs56DodgeBpillarUpperMountDriversSideInstalled_1.jpg (150KB - 19 downloads)
Attachments DaveFs56DodgeBpillarUpperMountDriversSideInstalled_2.jpg (114KB - 17 downloads)
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lozrox58
Posted 2017-11-14 5:21 AM (#552210 - in reply to #552125)
Subject: Re: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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That looks better.
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-11-14 6:45 PM (#552243 - in reply to #552210)
Subject: Re: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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56D500boy - 2017-11-13 11:27 AM
I also ran an "Alternative 3" by him (Steve Pekrul at Seat Belt Planet). This would be mounting the retractor very near to the base of the B pillar *ON* the pillar (using one of the 1.5" x 3" plates). He said that is a possibility *BUT* only if the belt between the retractor and the "D"-ring does not touch the B-pillar trim and risk abrasion. Not sure if it will or won't touch but I will mock-up that alternative as well.


Powerflite - 2017-11-13 2:08 PM
Your option 3 is how I did it in my '56 Plymouth. But I did have to reinforce the backside of that panel quite a bit to get it to work. The nice thing about doing it this way is it gets the seat belt out of the way for people to get into the back seat on a 2dr car. But a 4dr wouldn't matter as much. I used older style seat belts that have 2 anchor bolts at the bottom so that's why you see that bar hanging out behind it. I bought the seat belts in 2004 and that's how they designed them back then.


As a result of your comment Nathan, I took a break from some mind-numbing house project that I need to get done by Monday and went out to the garage to mock-up Alternative 3. I put the D-ring bolt in the proper location, the fixed end of the should belt in the floor bolt and propped the retractor up-against the lower B-pillar cover. Looks like it will work. Clearances between the belt and the B-pillar cover should be fine. I think the lower mounting plate can be located such that I would use the retractor to hold the bottom section of the B-Pillar cover against the B-pillar. If there were clearance issues they could be dealt with via a small spacer at the D-ring bolt.

Photos (the last one shows me holding the mounting plate inside pillar with the 7/16" x 20 threads just showing through the OE lower B-pillar cover screw slot):






(DForgies56Dodge3pointFrontSeatBeltAlternative3_overview.jpg)



(DForgies56Dodge3pointFrontSeatBeltAlternative3_LowerRetractorMountLocation.jpg)



(DForgies56Dodge3pointFrontSeatBeltAlternative3_UpperDRingMount.jpg)



(DForgies56Dodge3pointFrontSeatBeltAlternative3_ShowingBeltClearanceOffThePillar.jpg)



(DForgies56Dodge3pointFrontSeatBeltAlternative3_PotentialLowerRetractorMountLocation.jpg)



(DForgies56Dodge3pointFrontSeatBeltAlternative3_PotentialLowerRetractorMountPlateLocation.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments DForgies56Dodge3pointFrontSeatBeltAlternative3_overview.jpg (190KB - 20 downloads)
Attachments DForgies56Dodge3pointFrontSeatBeltAlternative3_LowerRetractorMountLocation.jpg (198KB - 20 downloads)
Attachments DForgies56Dodge3pointFrontSeatBeltAlternative3_UpperDRingMount.jpg (137KB - 18 downloads)
Attachments DForgies56Dodge3pointFrontSeatBeltAlternative3_ShowingBeltClearanceOffThePillar.jpg (158KB - 17 downloads)
Attachments DForgies56Dodge3pointFrontSeatBeltAlternative3_PotentialLowerRetractorMountLocation.jpg (187KB - 17 downloads)
Attachments DForgies56Dodge3pointFrontSeatBeltAlternative3_PotentialLowerRetractorMountPlateLocation.jpg (225KB - 18 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-11-24 8:14 PM (#553069 - in reply to #552243)
Subject: Re: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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Another thing that I need to get done before the carpet gets back is finish off the B-pillar mounts. I have the upper one figured (and in place on the driver's side). The lower B-pilllar mount still needs figuring. I had decided to mount the retractor on the lower portion of the B-pillar but not exactly how. This is what I have been staring at for at least a week:



I decided that the "store-bought" plates that I am using for the upper mount are a little small, i.e. they wouldn't take full advantage of the metal available to take the stress of the bottom mount. As a consequence, I was committed to make my own mounting plates. I measured the width of the useful inner cavity and it was just over 1.25" wide. Today I went out and purchased a piece of bar stock 1.25" wide, 1/8" thick and 36" long. I did a little measuring and decided to make an "ELL"-shaped piece with a 5.75" upper leg (comes to just below the top of that lower B-pillar gusset) and a 3/4" lower leg (with a 90 deg bend) that sits on the base of the B-pillar. (I decided on the "ELL" (with the short foot so there would be something at the base of the plate to manipulate the plate and potentially add to the mount (via a rivet).

With the "ELL" plate made, I inserted it into the cavity and decided where to drill the 3/16" holes for the rivets that will hold the plate in nominal place (via 3/16" rivets). I then removed the plate and drilled those two 3/16" holes in the B-pillar. Then I reinstalled the plate and through the newly drilled holes, marked the location where I needed to drill the corresponding 3/16" holes in the "ELL" plate. I removed the plate again and drilled those holes and after cleaning up the burrs, I put the plate back into the cavity and lined it up using 3/16" rivets as guides. I double-drilled through the B-pillar and the "ELL" plate as needed to get full clearance for the 3/16" rivets. Then I temporarily riveted the plate into place. (I did so because in the next step I would lose contact with the plate).

I reinstalled the upper and lower B-pillar covers and adjusted them until their location was as per before I removed them (months ago), i.e. clearance to the headliner at the top, gap/overlap between the upper and lower covers and space at the bottom of the lower cover. Then I checked the location of the centerline I had marked on the "ELL" plate through the lower cover's lower mounting hole. With that centered, I drilled through the lower cover lower screw hole and the B-pillar's screw receiving slot and into the "ELL" plate enough to serve as a pilot hole.

Then I removed the B-pillar covers and started drilling a 1/2" hole (the seat belt bolts are 7/16" so 1/2" provides a little clearance for the bolt) in the B-pillar. At the same time, that also started the 1/2" hole in the "ELL" plate. I then used the 1/2" bit to drill off the heads of the temporary 3/16" rivets and removed the "ELL" plate. I finished drilling the 1/2" hole in the B-pillar and went inside to finish drilling the 1/2" hole in the "ELL" plate with my corded 1/2" Dewalt drill (more power than the little 18V Black and Decker cordless that I was using up to then).

This is where I failed (a bit). The bit walked away slightly from the centerline of the "ELL" plate. I don't have a drill press and was just free-handing it. Bad idea. Oh well. I have tons more material and can use this first trial plate as a template for the next one. The next one (tomorrow) will have a slightly longer (maybe by 1/8") upper leg to take full advantage of the existing B-pillar material, the lower leg might be a little longer too.

I also mocked-up the location of the nut that will be welded on the back of the "ELL" plate (except I will use a flanged nut) and how the nut and bolt will interact through the plate.

Bottomline: I think the idea is good (enough) - but my execution needs some fine-tuning.

Photos from today:

Edited by 56D500boy 2017-11-24 10:52 PM




(TrialBPillarRetractorRetentionPlateInPlaceToMarkHalfInchHole.jpg)



(TrialBPillarRetractorRetentionPlateInPlaceToMarkHalfInchHole_MarkingHole.jpg)



(TrialBPillarRetractorRetentionPlateInPlaceToMarkHalfInchHole_DrillingHoleInBPillar.jpg)



(TrialBPillarRetractorRetentionPlateRemovedAndHalfInchHoleDrilled.jpg)



(TrialBPillarRetractorRetentionPlateRemovedAndHalfInchHoleDrilledInPlate.jpg)



(TrialBPillarRetractorRetentionPlateEdgeViewShowingHowTheRivetsMushroomedNicely.jpg)



(TrialBPillarRetractorRetentionPlate_BackSideShowingWhereNutWillBeWelded.jpg)



(TrialBPillarRetractorRetentionPlate_ShowingMockUpNutAndBolt.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments TrialBPillarRetractorRetentionPlateInPlaceToMarkHalfInchHole.jpg (228KB - 19 downloads)
Attachments TrialBPillarRetractorRetentionPlateInPlaceToMarkHalfInchHole_MarkingHole.jpg (152KB - 23 downloads)
Attachments TrialBPillarRetractorRetentionPlateInPlaceToMarkHalfInchHole_DrillingHoleInBPillar.jpg (190KB - 18 downloads)
Attachments TrialBPillarRetractorRetentionPlateRemovedAndHalfInchHoleDrilled.jpg (242KB - 20 downloads)
Attachments TrialBPillarRetractorRetentionPlateRemovedAndHalfInchHoleDrilledInPlate.jpg (132KB - 22 downloads)
Attachments TrialBPillarRetractorRetentionPlateEdgeViewShowingHowTheRivetsMushroomedNicely.jpg (109KB - 19 downloads)
Attachments TrialBPillarRetractorRetentionPlate_BackSideShowingWhereNutWillBeWelded.jpg (113KB - 21 downloads)
Attachments TrialBPillarRetractorRetentionPlate_ShowingMockUpNutAndBolt.jpg (151KB - 14 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-11-25 8:20 PM (#553136 - in reply to #553069)
Subject: Re: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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Carried on today starting with making another "ELL" plate, one with a little longer foot and taller back. I think the foot is about 1" and the back is now about 5 7/8". Needed a bit of adjustment on the height with my angle grinder. Then I drilled the bottom rivet hole in the plate and the 1/2" hole for the 7/16" x 20 bolt that will hold the seat belt retractor to the bottom of the B-pillar.

Then I took the new plate with it's two new holes and a flanged 7/16" x 20 nut and the bolt (to help him locate the nut) across the street to my neighbour for a bit of MIG (or TIG?) welding. He was busy with late lunch (oops) but I left it with him while I did something else. About 30 minutes later he returned the plate with the nut now welded to the back of the plate. I thanked him and promised him beer (I have three more such welds to go though so no beer yet). Then I went out to the car and tried the newly nutted plate in the driver's B-pillar. I located the plate with the 7/16" x 20 bolt and a 3/16" rivet. Then I drilled through the second 3/16" hole in the B-pillar to the new plate to mark it in place for final drilling.

Took the plate out once more and drilled the second 3/16" hole. Put the plate back in and checked the alignment with the bolt and two rivets. It's going to work well.

I then removed the plate and tried it in the base of the passenger side B-pillar no go. Turns out *somebody*must have cleaned out their body seam putty knife in the base of the passenger side B-pillar. No other reason for seam sealer there. Driver's side didn't have any.

The stuff at the base of the passenger side B-pillar was like concrete. 30 or so minutes and a bit of cursing later, I had chipped it out. At one point, I flipped the "ELL" plate upside down and used it as a dull chisel to knock some of the crud out. Eventually it was all clear and the new "ELL" plate fit perfectly. I just need to make another one tomorrow. (And find the other flanged nut and get my neighbour to weld it onto the second "ELL" Plate).

In the meantime, I am going to paint this first one and spray some Rust Converter on the surface rust inside the B-pillars. And then paint the inside of the B-pillars with Zero-Rust.

Some photos from today:

Edited by 56D500boy 2017-11-26 1:15 AM




(Mark2ELLPlateWithApproximateHolePositions.jpg)



(Mark2ELLPlateWithFlangeNutTrial.jpg)



(Mark2ELLPlateWithFlangeNutWeldedOnAndOneRivetHoleDrilled.jpg)



(Mark2ELLPlateWithFlangeNutWeldedOnAndBoltThroughTheNut.jpg)



(Mark2ELLPlateOnRightComparedToMark1PlateOnLeft.jpg)



(Mark2ELLPlateInPlaceWithBoltAndOneRivetToLineUpSecondRivetHole.jpg)



(Mark2ELLPlateInPlaceWithBoltAndBothRivetHolesDrilled.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments Mark2ELLPlateWithApproximateHolePositions.jpg (109KB - 17 downloads)
Attachments Mark2ELLPlateWithFlangeNutTrial.jpg (107KB - 17 downloads)
Attachments Mark2ELLPlateWithFlangeNutWeldedOnAndOneRivetHoleDrilled.jpg (101KB - 15 downloads)
Attachments Mark2ELLPlateWithFlangeNutWeldedOnAndBoltThroughTheNut.jpg (104KB - 18 downloads)
Attachments Mark2ELLPlateOnRightComparedToMark1PlateOnLeft.jpg (104KB - 19 downloads)
Attachments Mark2ELLPlateInPlaceWithBoltAndOneRivetToLineUpSecondRivetHole.jpg (245KB - 19 downloads)
Attachments Mark2ELLPlateInPlaceWithBoltAndBothRivetHolesDrilled.jpg (246KB - 17 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-11-26 8:25 PM (#553200 - in reply to #553136)
Subject: Re: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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After Sunday Brunch with my wife and watching the last F1 race of the year, I found time this afternoon to make a 2nd Mark 2 "ELL" plate, this one for the passenger side. I used the Mark2 plate from yesterday to get the dimensions and bent and cut accordingly. Fit into the recess in the B-pillar perfectly. No angle grinder adjustments needed.

I followed the exact same process to find the location of the 1/2" hole for the 7/16" bolt as I did for the driver's side, i.e. drilling the 3/16" rivet holes and temporarily riveting the plate into place and then drilling a pilot hole through the lower B-pillar lower cover screw mounting hole to position the 1/2" hole. Then I drilled the rivets out, removed the "ELL" and drilled the 1/2" hole based on the pilot hole location. Touched the drilled holes up with my angle grinder, put masking tape where the flanged nut will be welded and painted the new plate ( with Treclad/Rustoleum "Professional" grade rust paint - I find that it dries much faster than the other rust paints).

Also located and drilled the holes for the upper passenger side D-ring mounting plate using the driver's side plate as a guide.

So, not bad for a rainy Sunday afternoon.



Edited by 56D500boy 2017-11-27 11:43 AM
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-11-27 7:51 PM (#553256 - in reply to #553200)
Subject: Re: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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Well, the classic (for me), two steps ahead, one step back.

I found the second flanged nut that I had bought at LOWES and when my neighbour got home from work, I asked him if he could would tack it to the second Mark 2 "ELL" plate like he did the to the first Mark 2 "ELL" plate the other day. "Sure" he says and goes into his house/garage. 20 minutes later he comes back and says "Dave, did you know that that nut is a 1/2" coarse thread, not a 7/16" x 20?". I am all "deer in the headlights".

I had found those flanged nuts in one of LOWES specialty nuts and bolts drawers and specifically in a 7/16" x 20 section. Sure enough I go into my house and check the bag that the nut came in and sure enough, it says "1/2 inch - 13". .

So now I have to a) cut/grind the flanged nut off the first Mark 2 "ELL" plate and b) find two proper 7/16" x 20 flanged nuts so he can weld them to the Mark 2 plates. Two steps ahead, at least one back.

Oh well. That will teach me to assume that LOWES stock is properly organized.

At least I got both plates painted (yesterday). I also vacuumed out the base of both B-pillars today and painted them and the inside of the B-pillars (previously sprayed with Rust Converter) with Tremclad Royal Blue rust paint (the Royal Blue is very close to the OE darker colour of my car and I think works well for bits that need paint and nobody will likely ever see - and I couldn't find my stash of "Safety Blue" Zero Rust for some reason).



Edited by 56D500boy 2017-11-27 8:58 PM
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-11-28 8:27 PM (#553338 - in reply to #553256)
Subject: Re: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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56D500boy - 2017-11-27 7:51 PM
I had found those flanged nuts in one of LOWES specialty nuts and bolts drawers and specifically in a 7/16" x 20 section. Sure enough I go into my house and check the bag that the nut came in and sure enough, it says "1/2 inch - 13". .


Talked to LOWES this AM. They apologized for the problem but suggested that it was likely a customer misplacing the 1/2" flange nuts into the 7/16" x 20 drawer. He determined that indeed, they don't carry a 7/16" x 20 flanged nut.

So, on the way home from the dentist (check up), I stopped in at Pacific Fasteners. Initially the first counter guy said "Nope, we don't have what you want". However the second (older) counter guy whispered to the first guy and the first guy went back to the shelves and produced six (the number I requested) 7/16" x 20 flanged nuts. $5 cash. Fine.

Then I stopped in at a tool store and bought an abrasive cutting disc for my 4.5" angle grinder. When I got home, I cut that 1/2" x 13 flanged nut off my first Mark 2 "ELL" plate by grinding the welds away and then beating the nut off the plate and then cleaning (smoothing) the plate with the abrasive disc. When my friendly welding neighbour came home I gave him the two Mark 2 "ELL" plates, each with a 7/16" x 20 bolt and the flanged nuts for him to tack to the plates when he gets a chance. (Hopefully tonight)

In the meantime, I will carry on with the sound deadening project. I just got notice that the repaired/remade front carpet piece has arrived at my US mail drop.

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56D500boy
Posted 2017-11-29 9:30 PM (#553401 - in reply to #553338)
Subject: Re: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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56D500boy - 2017-11-28 8:27 PM When my friendly welding neighbour came home I gave him the two Mark 2 "ELL" plates, each with a 7/16" x 20 bolt and the flanged nuts for him to tack to the plates when he gets a chance. (Hopefully tonight) In the meantime, I will carry on with the sound deadening project. I just got notice that the repaired/remade front carpet piece has arrived at my US mail drop. :)


What a good guy. My wife and I and gone out for dinner and when we got back, I found the newly welded "ELL" plates on the back step. Thank you Jason.

This morning, I gave them a quick coat of the Professional Grade TremClad and then went down to the US to get the carpet. They remade it, not fixed it. Hopefully it fits better (tomorrow's fun). Strangely the "jute" padding a) wasn't attached to the carpet with glue (??) and b) there were two versions of the pad, one cut appropriately and one not fully cut (???). Another story another day.

Back to the "ELL" plates:

After installing some more aluminum foil tape over the X-mat High profile joints, I started installing the two "ELL" plates. The drivers side went in great. Well until I decided to screw down the short "foot" of the "ELL" with a washer head 14 x 3/4" self-threading metal lag screw. I decided that a 5/32" pilot hole was appropriate so I drilled on through the plate and through the base of the B-pillar (ends up in the rocker cavity (I think). I riveted the plate in place making sure a 7/16" x 20 bolt fit in through the 1/2" hole in the B-pillar with out issue (it was fine). Then I started in with the lag screw. All was well until I pushed it too hard and snapped the screw off. .

Okay. Moved on the the passenger side and repeated the process except this time I used a 3/16" bit to drill the pilot hole through the foot of the "ELL" and the base of the B-pillar. After riveting the plate into place, I slowly installed the washer head 14 x 3/4" self-threader by cranking it in until I got some good resistance, then backing it out a half turn and going again. That worked. Got it all the way down without breaking it.

Also installed the upper purchased 1.25" x 3" threaded plate that I got from Seat Belt Planet. So now I have all four attachment points read for the three-point seat belts.

Photos from today:



Edited by 56D500boy 2017-11-29 10:41 PM




(Mark2ELLPlatesWith7_16x20FlangedNutsWeldedToThem_NoPaint.jpg)



(Mark2ELLPlatesWith7_16x20FlangedNutsWeldedToThem_NoPaint_Side.jpg)



(Mark2ELLPlateInstalled_DriversSide_BrokenMetalScrew.jpg)



(Mark2ELLPlateInstalled_PassengerSide_WithMetalScrew.jpg)



(UpperDRingMountInstalledPassengerSide.jpg)



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Attachments Mark2ELLPlatesWith7_16x20FlangedNutsWeldedToThem_NoPaint.jpg (98KB - 20 downloads)
Attachments Mark2ELLPlatesWith7_16x20FlangedNutsWeldedToThem_NoPaint_Side.jpg (76KB - 19 downloads)
Attachments Mark2ELLPlateInstalled_DriversSide_BrokenMetalScrew.jpg (215KB - 18 downloads)
Attachments Mark2ELLPlateInstalled_PassengerSide_WithMetalScrew.jpg (242KB - 18 downloads)
Attachments UpperDRingMountInstalledPassengerSide.jpg (176KB - 19 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-12-01 6:36 PM (#553513 - in reply to #553401)
Subject: Re: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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Well "if you can beat them, join them".

I tried vice grips on that broken self-threader. Nope. Then I tried drilling it for an E-Z-out. Nope. Fine then. Be like that.

Bought a 1/4" coarse thread nut (faster than scrounging my shop for one) and hammered it on to the broke self-threader (now deemed to be a "stud") and then torqued it down with a 7/16" socket. Good enough. It wasn't really meant to add much strength to the anchoring system any way. It is the threads that have now been cut in to the "ELL" plate and the car (2 tight layers of metal down there) that will do the holding (if ever needed).

Next time (there won't be one), I would drill the pilot hole to at least 3/16" first (like I did on passenger side).

From this:



To this:

Edited by 56D500boy 2017-12-01 6:43 PM




(Mark2ELLPlateInstalled_DriversSide_BrokenMetalScrew_nowWithNUT.jpg)



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Attachments Mark2ELLPlateInstalled_DriversSide_BrokenMetalScrew_nowWithNUT.jpg (244KB - 23 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-12-11 8:13 PM (#554114 - in reply to #553401)
Subject: Re: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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My metal fabricator neighbour wandered over today to have a look at the revised fit of my front carpet. While he was there, he spotted the installation of the seat belt retractor bracket that he had helped me with by welding the nut to the back. He asked why hadn't I used a nutsert (or riv-nut) for that bottom connection. (Me = deer in the headlights) He went back into his shop and came back with two appropriately sized stainless steel nutserts. (But no tool to install them).

This bracket:



These nutserts (example) only stainless steel:



I said nothing is permanent and I could remove the bracket and install the nutsert. He said that it would have a pull out of 2000 lbs.



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Old Ray
Posted 2017-12-11 10:56 PM (#554130 - in reply to #554114)
Subject: Re: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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56D500boy - 2017-12-11 6:13 PM ) He went back into his shop and came back with two appropriately sized stainless steel nutserts. (But no tool to install them).


Whoa there cowboy! I hope that the neighbor guy is going to supply the tool and that its not the hand held type that looks like a pop rivet tool. In my experience it will not work on aluminum nutsert rivets let alone steel ones. You might be able to pull / collapse the rivet in with a bolt but holding the insert so that it doesn't spin is almost impossible. To do that you will need to have this ratchet tool for many dollars. Ask me how I know this. 





(s-l500.jpg)



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Attachments s-l500.jpg (14KB - 17 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-04-27 1:26 AM (#562355 - in reply to #554114)
Subject: Re: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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Well that was a long cold winter. In the meantime, the entire floor got covered in some form of Dynamat, X-mat (thick) or X-mat (thin) and then the rear half of the carpet was trialled, trimmed and installed. To make the holes in the carpet for the seat belt bolts, I first used an awl to locate the holes and make a start at a hole for the bolts. Then I used a Kitchen Torch to heat 1.5 inches of the end of a 10" landscaping tie spike and melted holes through the carpet and padding. Today I finally installed the seat belt end hold downs beneath/near the seat belt reels. I used the Grade 5 bolts that came from Seatbelt Planet except for the two outer ones that I had drilled holes in the outer edge of the body. Those needed 3 inch, 7/16" x 20 Grade 5 bolts that I bought at Lowes.

I had one issue that was not resolved: the anchor for the passenger side center is in an awkward location, i.e. messed in with the single exhaust shield, I didn't notice that before when I took the old belts out. I can't tell what is going on until I get the car in the air (hoist).

Next up is the new wind lace so I can reinstall the B-pillar covers.

Some photos from today.

Edited by 56D500boy 2018-04-27 1:34 AM




(56DodgeInstallingBottomOfPassengerSideShoulderBeltThroughTheCarpet.jpg)



(56DodgeInstallingBottomOfPassengerSideShoulderBeltThroughTheCarpet_2Point5InchBolt.jpg)



(56DodgeInstallingBottomOfPassengerSideShoulderBeltThroughTheCarpet_3InchBolt.jpg)



(56DodgeInstallingBottomOfPassengerSideShoulderBeltThroughTheCarpet_3InchBoltBentThreeInchWasherAndNut.jpg)



(56DodgeInstallingBottomOfPassengerSideShoulderBeltThroughTheCarpet_3InchBoltBentThreeInchWasherAndNutUpper.jpg)



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Attachments 56DodgeInstallingBottomOfPassengerSideShoulderBeltThroughTheCarpet.jpg (199KB - 7 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgeInstallingBottomOfPassengerSideShoulderBeltThroughTheCarpet_2Point5InchBolt.jpg (165KB - 7 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgeInstallingBottomOfPassengerSideShoulderBeltThroughTheCarpet_3InchBolt.jpg (183KB - 7 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgeInstallingBottomOfPassengerSideShoulderBeltThroughTheCarpet_3InchBoltBentThreeInchWasherAndNut.jpg (151KB - 7 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgeInstallingBottomOfPassengerSideShoulderBeltThroughTheCarpet_3InchBoltBentThreeInchWasherAndNutUpper.jpg (173KB - 7 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-05-09 12:47 AM (#563010 - in reply to #562355)
Subject: Re: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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Still moving towards the finalization of the carpet installation but found that the can of worms expanded to include the need to finalize the front seat belt installation. In particular, I need to be able to install the two-piece "B" pillar covers (left and right side) in order to use them to hold the new windlace in place. I need the windlace in place so I can install the sill plates which will hold the outside edge of the carpet in place. Also involved in this is the "C" pillar covers and the kick-panels. This post deals only with the B-pillar covers.

I had the seat shoulder belt upper and lower bits temporarily mounted to the B-pillar - with the B-pillar covers off. In order to install these covers, I need to drill 0.5 inch holes (for the 7/16 x 20 seat belt bolts) in the upper and lower covers. The lower cover location was based on an existing cover mounting hole. The upper location had to be located by measuring from the two cover screw holes to the center of the upper mounting nut/plate.

I put masking tape on the B-pillar in the vicinity of the where the screws go into the B-pillar. Then I put the cover on and ran the screws into the B-Pillar. Then I removed the cover and measured from the holes in the masking tape to the center of the seat belt mounting nut/plate. Then I transferred these measurements to be back of upper B-pillar cover and drilled a 3/16" pilot hole (I didn't center punch first but probably should have). Then I drilled the 1/2" hole with a relatively new 1/2" metal drill bit. Then I put the cover back on and observed any needed adjustments and marked this with a black Sharpie. Then I removed the cover and "adjusted" the hole location with the side of the drill bit. When I was happy, I installed the cover plate(s) and the seat belt mounts, as shown in the photos below.

All would have been good but I got distracted when I did the first upper cover and I flipped the cover end for end when I measured the hole location so when I drilled it, it was in the wrong location. FUGG. Fixable but an unnecessary and uncharacteristic mistake. I should have double checked the location before I drilled but I didn't. I didn't make that mistake on the second upper cover. I can temporarily fix (hide) the extra hole on the passenger side upper B-pillar cover but I will no doubt be asking John at BigM if he has a cover that he will sell me.

Tomorrow, I will remove the covers and sand and paint them in prep for the windlace installation. I still have to finalize the C-pillar covers before that can happen so I'm not done yet. But that is another story.

Today's photos (including the mistake):





(RightSideBPillarWithDrilledBPillarCoversTemporarilyInPlace_1.jpg)



(RightSideBPillarWithDrilledBPillarCoversTemporarilyInPlace_2.jpg)



(RightSideBPillarWithDrilledBPillarCoversTemporarilyInPlace_3.jpg)



(LeftSideBPillarWithDrilledBPillarCoversTemporarilyInPlace_1.jpg)



(LeftSideBPillarWithDrilledBPillarCoversTemporarilyInPlace_2.jpg)



(LeftSideBPillarWithDrilledBPillarCoversTemporarilyInPlace_3.jpg)



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Attachments RightSideBPillarWithDrilledBPillarCoversTemporarilyInPlace_1.jpg (162KB - 8 downloads)
Attachments RightSideBPillarWithDrilledBPillarCoversTemporarilyInPlace_2.jpg (113KB - 9 downloads)
Attachments RightSideBPillarWithDrilledBPillarCoversTemporarilyInPlace_3.jpg (162KB - 9 downloads)
Attachments LeftSideBPillarWithDrilledBPillarCoversTemporarilyInPlace_1.jpg (178KB - 9 downloads)
Attachments LeftSideBPillarWithDrilledBPillarCoversTemporarilyInPlace_2.jpg (180KB - 8 downloads)
Attachments LeftSideBPillarWithDrilledBPillarCoversTemporarilyInPlace_3.jpg (129KB - 9 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-05-13 10:57 PM (#563319 - in reply to #563010)
Subject: Re: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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In preparation for installation of the new windlace, I removed and painted the B-pillar covers and the seat belt D-ring cover, all in the same shade of light blue. And then re-installed the B-pillar covers, etc. as part of a dry fit of the right rear door windlace.





Edited by 56D500boy 2018-05-14 12:48 AM
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-05-23 9:02 PM (#563938 - in reply to #563319)
Subject: Re: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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Another shot of the B-pillar and the three-point shoulder seat belt mount, with the B-pillar cover(s) and new windlace from today:

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56D500boy
Posted 2018-05-28 10:52 PM (#564147 - in reply to #563938)
Subject: Re: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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Finished the installation of the front carpet today and re-installed the front seat that has been out of the car since about Oct. 31st. I pulled the orange shipping "pin" off the driver's seat belt and took the car for a spin (instead of sitting on a milk crate and going around the block) wearing the three point seat belt. It fit nicely. Didn't test it other than to pull on it quickly to see if it locked up. It did. Photo tomorrow. (I forgot today).

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DepsilonD
Posted 2018-05-29 11:43 AM (#564168 - in reply to #552125)
Subject: Re: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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VERY NICE WORK Dave F!
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-05-29 3:33 PM (#564184 - in reply to #564168)
Subject: Re: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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DepsilonD - 2018-05-29 11:43 AM
VERY NICE WORK Dave F!


Thanks. Here's a photo from just minutes ago. (Yes, I am missing the top trim around the driver's door and the arm rest (the trim is painted and in the basement as is the armrest) and the back seat. I know). And many other things too.



Edited by 56D500boy 2018-05-29 4:29 PM




(DaveFAndHis56DodgeWithThreePointShoulderBelts.jpg)



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Greg P.
Posted 2018-05-29 4:50 PM (#564194 - in reply to #552125)
Subject: RE: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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Wow! that looks really great! I'm generally against this type of modification because the ones I've seen look weird and out of place, but you really nailed it.

Really, I have to say yours is the best installation I've seen. It really is remarkable how well it fits and blends in with the interior.
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-05-29 5:16 PM (#564196 - in reply to #564194)
Subject: RE: Installation of Three Point Front Seat Belts in a 56 Dodge Sedan



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Greg P. - 2018-05-29 4:50 PM
Wow! that looks really great! I'm generally against this type of modification because the ones I've seen look weird and out of place, but you really nailed it.
Really, I have to say yours is the best installation I've seen. It really is remarkable how well it fits and blends in with the interior.


Thanks very much. I should say that I was encouraged by the work Nathan (Powerflite) had done on his cars before I started. I also should thank Steve P at Seat Belt Planet for helping me pick which hardware I needed and my neighbour Jason for welding the flange nuts onto the brackets that I had to make.

I have to thank Seat Belt Planet for having a wide selection of belt colours to chose from (I chose Powder Blue but I might have chosen Electric Blue too and it would still have worked.):

https://www.seatbeltplanet.com/shopping-cart/swatches

I also re-painted the modified B-pillar covers and the upper seat belt D-ring bolt cover the same colour so it helps to make it look co-ordinated colour-wise. I am getting full retractor reel covers in my latest order (the rear belts, two three point and one lap) and will paint the cover the same as the B-pillar covers so it will blend in nicely.

I think I did a good job (makes up for some of my less than 100% good jobs)



Edited by 56D500boy 2018-05-29 11:56 PM
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