|
 56 Dodge Custom Royal 4dr SedanJump to page : 1 2 3 4 Now viewing page 2 [50 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
| Forward Look Technical Discussions -> Fender/VIN Tag and Broadcast Sheet Decoding | Message format |
RDP |
| ||
Elite Veteran Posts: 1054   Location: PL / EU | |||
| |||
| frwl |
| ||
Expert Posts: 2063  | |||
| |||
| Powerflite |
| ||
Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10016  Location: So. Cal | My '56 Savoy: glass isn't tinted no rear seat speaker no rear defroster I had to look at the original pictures of my car to see that the radio had no push buttons either. It had a flat face on it with fake indents where the buttons would go. Really cheap! (i-5_B_L.jpg) Attachments ----------------  i-5_B_L.jpg (32KB - 432 downloads) | ||
| |||
| 56D500boy |
| ||
Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10270  Location: Lower Mainland BC | Powerflite - 2019-12-13 8:05 AM no rear defroster I think the question was do you have a front windshield defroster motor and switch?  | ||
| |||
| frwl |
| ||
Expert Posts: 2063 | . Yes. I mean heater with defroster (Dave – Thanks for correction) highlighted in red on the picture below. But info about rear window defroster very appreciated too… So, summary what we have with M8=3 and M9=8 codes: Automatic Transmission, Heater and NO Radio – right? Thanks again. P.S. Nathan, Besides EW=5 (Power Windows), column M1 = 4 in your ’57 New Yorker body tag says that your car does have 6 Way Power Seat – you forgot it in your listing. And M2=9, probably, should be some accessory group which includes Solex Glass, that absent in SG column… (1.jpg) Attachments ---------------- 1.jpg (137KB - 446 downloads) | ||
| |||
| Powerflite |
| ||
Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10016 Location: So. Cal | I'll have to check on the defroster switch, I've never used it.  But I suspect that it does have it. My Savoy does have a radio, just no pushbuttons on it. You're right about the power seat in the '57 New Yorker, I forgot to include it. So you are saying that all the rest of the options are bundled into M2=9? Or did they just not bother to put everything on the tag? Edited by Powerflite 2019-12-13 3:04 PM | ||
| |||
| frwl |
| ||
Expert Posts: 2063 | . You told that your car has equipped with solex glass. This item must be stamped by number below SG letters definitely. So, if SG column (Solex Glass) is empty, I just suspect that it option might be (probably) included in accessory group with number 9. For example, like in this DeSoto Accessory Groups on the picture below… Where besides tinted glass might be mirrors, sun visors, windshield washer, variable speed wipers etc… But I have not reliable information about it… (1.jpg) Attachments ---------------- 1.jpg (64KB - 443 downloads) | ||
| |||
| frwl |
| ||
Expert Posts: 2063 | . Or this example, I have found. It’s 57 New Yorker 4door Hardtop equipped with solex glass and power seat and no power windows (EW is empty) SG column numbered by 5 (Solex Glass) and M1=4 (Power Seat), but M2 column is empty. But your car SG is empty, but M2=9. Might be solex glass including in it That what I mean… (1.JPG) (2.JPG) (3.JPG) (4.JPG) (5.JPG) (6.JPG) (7.JPG) (8.JPG) Attachments ---------------- 1.JPG (81KB - 460 downloads) 2.JPG (77KB - 467 downloads) 3.JPG (61KB - 455 downloads) 4.JPG (60KB - 453 downloads) 5.JPG (44KB - 457 downloads) 6.JPG (43KB - 458 downloads) 7.JPG (77KB - 455 downloads) 8.JPG (58KB - 433 downloads) | ||
| |||
| 56D500boy |
| ||
Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10270 Location: Lower Mainland BC | frwl - 2019-12-13 11:28 AM. Yes. I mean heater with defroster (Dave – Thanks for correction) highlighted in red on the picture below. So, summary what we have with M8=3 and M9=8 codes: Automatic Transmission, Heater and NO Radio – right? I don't know if this is all directed at me or not. My 56 Dodge has Solex glass all round, PS, PB, Powerflite automatic, heater and front defroster and NO radio. M8 = 3 *BUT* M9 = 4. My tag (from the first post in this thread): Edited by 56D500boy 2019-12-13 4:32 PM | ||
| |||
| Powerflite |
| ||
Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10016 Location: So. Cal | frwl - 2019-12-13 12:55 PM Or this example, I have found. It’s 57 New Yorker 4door Hardtop equipped with solex glass and power seat and no power windows (EW is empty) SG column numbered by 5 (Solex Glass) and M1=4 (Power Seat), but M2 column is empty. But your car SG is empty, but M2=9. Might be solex glass including in it That what I mean… I understand what you are saying. That makes sense, but makes it a lot harder to figure out. This is a picture of my '57NY tag, and indeed it has nothing indicated in the SG column. (57NY BodyTag.jpg) Attachments ---------------- 57NY BodyTag.jpg (162KB - 445 downloads) | ||
| |||
| RDP |
| ||
Elite Veteran Posts: 1054 Location: PL / EU | |||
| |||
| 56D500boy |
| ||
Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10270 Location: Lower Mainland BC | RDP - 2019-12-14 8:48 AM 56D500boy - 2019-12-11 12:15 AM you are trying to make punches in all the columns correspond to an order code. It doesn't work like that. For some columns, it does but not for every column. Dave, you didn't answer my question. Why doesn't it work? For which columns? How do you know that? I "know" that because a) I have been playing with my 56 Dodge Los Angeles IBM card and a few Detroit-built 56 Dodge IBM cards (different format) for a few years now. I have also had correspondence with a computer science professor in the US who happens to have worked in the automotive sector during his undergraduate university days and knows about IBM cards and how they were used on the auto assembly lines. One of things that came out of my correspondence with the computer science prof was he made me aware of the use of IBM card "interpreters" which could be wired (either with patch cords or hard-wiring) that would move the printing of the information away (and maybe far away) from directly above where the punches were made: REFERENCE: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/interpreter.html Example (patch cord) interpreter:  A good case in point is column 35 on a Detroit 56 Dodge IBM card which seems to be labeled "ACC GRPS" (as in accessory groups). There could be multiple punches in that column (I have example 56 Dodge IBM cards with up to 4 punches in column 35). For the Detroit cards, the punches in column 35 get "interpreted" by the "interpreter" and printed in the appropriate location. In the example below, there are three punches in column 35, i.e. 1, 4 and 7. Those numbers get printed above box 351, 354 and 357 which seems to an organized and logical conclusion (if only we knew what options 351, 354 and 357 actually included): If only the Los Angeles plant's 56 Dodge IBM cards were as organized as those from Detroit. Case in point, my LA-built 56 Dodge and its IBM card. It has multiple punches in Column 35 but column 35 isn't labeled as anything special, in fact it isn't even numbered (I've had to add the numbers). In this case the punches in column 35 are 1, 4, 6 and 8 (my car has much the same options as the Detroit-built car so the different numbers are a bit concerning). In contrast to the Detroit card, these four numbers are NOT printed inside option boxes labeled 351, 354, 356 and 358. In fact while they are printed in roughly the same (or similar) location as the Column 35 codes on a Detroit card, they are not any boxes, instead they "float" above those boxes. Worse the boxes that they are above have labels that are meaningless to my car. (hits head against brick wall until the pain of that thought is numbed). Edited by 56D500boy 2019-12-14 2:02 PM | ||
| |||
| RDP |
| ||
Elite Veteran Posts: 1054 Location: PL / EU | |||
| |||
| RDP |
| ||
Elite Veteran Posts: 1054 Location: PL / EU | I looking through my collections ... here's what I have: pay attention to code 481 IBM card starts from 44 and ends with 47 codes outside the special equipment area have sense (plym56 (1).JPG) (plym56 (2).JPG) Attachments ---------------- plym56 (1).JPG (31KB - 430 downloads) plym56 (2).JPG (25KB - 446 downloads) | ||
| |||
| 56D500boy |
| ||
Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10270 Location: Lower Mainland BC | RDP - 2019-12-15 3:00 AM I looking through my collections ... here's what I have: Robert: Can you post/share a scan of the entire page/sheet that those extracts came from? They look very interesting. (Please) | ||
| |||
| RDP |
| ||
Elite Veteran Posts: 1054 Location: PL / EU | . (1956-1.jpg) (1956-2.jpg) Attachments ---------------- 1956-1.jpg (229KB - 457 downloads) 1956-2.jpg (228KB - 434 downloads) | ||
| |||
| 56D500boy |
| ||
Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10270 Location: Lower Mainland BC | . Robert: Thanks so much for posting those. Helps to make sense of both the Plymouth order form and the LA IBM cards (which must be actually Detroit Plymouth cards). | ||
| |||
| frwl |
| ||
Expert Posts: 2063 | . I have some speculations about body type codes. According to pictures (Thanks Robert), I can see double-digit number codes: 15 = Plaza 4door Sedan L6 25 = Savoy 4door Sedan L6 Actually (on the cowl tag) they are triple-digit – see the Nathan (Powerflite) cowl tag picture above – BT=854 So, what we have for 4door Sedans (last number 5): 15 = Plaza L6 25 = Savoy L6 35 = Belvedere L6 45 = Plaza V8 55 = Savoy V8 65 = Belvedere V8 Or, if we are using triple-digit number, it might be appears (same 4door Sedans): 615 = Plaza L6 625 = Savoy L6 635 = Belvedere L6 845 = Plaza V8 855 = Savoy V8 865 = Belvedere V8 I just have a question about Fury: is it 75 or 875? Or rather 76 or 876 (last number 6 – 2door Hardtop)? What car is on the picture below: Belvedere 2door Hardtop V8 or Fury 2door Hardtop V8? I think this is Belvedere, because paint 671 - it mostly green, while a Fury was beige… (1.jpg) Attachments ---------------- 1.jpg (147KB - 436 downloads) | ||
| |||
| RDP |
| ||
Elite Veteran Posts: 1054 Location: PL / EU | |||
| |||
| frwl |
| ||
Expert Posts: 2063 | |||
| |||
| RDP |
| ||
Elite Veteran Posts: 1054 Location: PL / EU | |||
| |||
| 56D500boy |
| ||
Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10270 Location: Lower Mainland BC | . I know you guys are having fun with the 56 Plymouth codes but trying to come back to the original thread topic, we are (all) having problems going from the codes on the IBM card to the numbers embossed on the cowl data tags. Here is an example of what I will call "insanity" of how we might never figure the IBM to cowl tag translation: There was no rhyme or reason (i.e. intelligible pattern) when they combined two or more option codes together. We might need this:  To figure out things like this (178+172 +173 = 176 Oh COME ON! How does that make sense?) Edited by 56D500boy 2019-12-17 2:41 PM (57OrderCodes_1.jpg) Attachments ---------------- 57OrderCodes_1.jpg (134KB - 438 downloads) | ||
| |||
| RDP |
| ||
Elite Veteran Posts: 1054 Location: PL / EU | 56D500boy - 2019-12-17 8:38 PM I know you guys are having fun with the 56 Plymouth codes but trying to come back to the original thread topic, yes Sir!  56D500boy - 2019-12-17 8:38 PM Here is an example of what I will call "insanity" of how we might never figure the IBM to cowl tag translation: There was no rhyme or reason (i.e. intelligible pattern) when they combined two or more option codes together. To figure out things like this (178+172 +173 = 176 Oh COME ON! How does that make sense?) but this is nothing new: Edited by RDP 2019-12-17 3:04 PM (a.JPG) Attachments ---------------- a.JPG (30KB - 443 downloads) | ||
| |||
| 56D500boy |
| ||
Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10270 Location: Lower Mainland BC | RDP - 2019-12-17 12:02 PM but this is nothing new: Maybe not to you but it is new to me!! What is that snippet from? | ||
| |||
| frwl |
| ||
Expert Posts: 2063 | . This box looks like Enigma decoding machine of German Army WWII (LOL) So, what we have ’57 Plymouth Accessory Groups: 17x + 17x +17x = 17x Analogically for ’56 Dodge Accessory Groups: 35x + 35x + 35x = 35x, i.e. 351 + 354 + 356 = 357, 358 or 359… But codes 357, 358 or 359 are Radio codes… so, this speculation is wrong… From other side, if we are looking to the codes on the cowl tag in order: SG1 = 361 = Solex Glass, EW3 = 363 = Power Windows, the next M1 could be code 365 or Power Brakes… My database has three numbers below M1 on the cowl tag: 5, 7 and 8, if assuming that: M1 = 5 = Power Brakes M1 = 7 = Power Brakes and Power Steering M1 = 8 = Power Brakes and Power Steering and something else… might be Power Disc Brakes instead regular brake By the way the car pictured below has not Power Brakes and M1 column is empty (1.jpg) (2.jpg) (3.jpg) Attachments ---------------- 1.jpg (57KB - 465 downloads) 2.jpg (60KB - 456 downloads) 3.jpg (39KB - 451 downloads) | ||
| |||
| frwl |
| ||
Expert Posts: 2063 | |||
| |||
| 56D500boy |
| ||
Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10270 Location: Lower Mainland BC | frwl - 2019-12-17 12:54 PM This box looks like Enigma decoding machine of German Army WWII (LOL) My database has three numbers below M1 on the cowl tag: 5, 7 and 8, if assuming that: M1 = 5 = Power Brakes M1 = 7 = Power Brakes and Power Steering M1 = 8 = Power Brakes and Power Steering and something else… might be Power Disc Brakes instead regular brake By the way the car pictured below has not Power Brakes and M1 column is empty Yes it was an Enigma decoding machine and we need it badly. The June 26th built, 56 Golden Royal (D63-2) Lancer (826) indeed does not have either PS or PB, so M1 = blank might make sense My car has both PS and PB and my M1 code is 8. I don't know what else would make it different than M1 = 7. It would be nice to have a complete 56 Dodge order form with all the options and codes. In the short term, seeing more 1956 Plymouth order form and codes would likely help us. My cowl tag: The 56 Golden (077 paint code) Royal (D63-2 model code) Lancer (826 body code) cowl tag has SG =1 (and I see lots of Solex Glass), M2 = 4, M8 = 3 and M9 =3. I think that extra tag under the main cowl tag is likely to be the "Undercoating Tag" Edited by 56D500boy 2019-12-17 4:46 PM (56GoldenLancerRoyalCowlTag_Large.jpg) Attachments ---------------- 56GoldenLancerRoyalCowlTag_Large.jpg (86KB - 433 downloads) | ||
| |||
| frwl |
| ||
Expert Posts: 2063 | . In continuing of the theme about accessory groups… Dave, your car has Basic, Convenience and Appearance Groups (same column 1, 4, 6 and 8 in the broadcast sheet) If assuming that Basic 411 + Convenience 414 + Appearance 416 = 418, and it has stamped in column M1 = 8 Might be this theory makes sense We have also M1=5 column (Rustyfender’s Royal Lancer) and M1=7 (the car that has been built later of yours on a three days) Would be appreciated to know – what the differences between them and your car What accessory groups have those cars? | ||
| |||
| RDP |
| ||
Elite Veteran Posts: 1054 Location: PL / EU | 56D500boy - 2019-12-17 9:38 PM RDP - 2019-12-17 12:02 PM but this is nothing new: Maybe not to you but it is new to me!! What is that snippet from? :) Unfortunately this is not Dodge, 56 Plymouth price list brochure. Guys, look at the attachment, all Plymouth and Dodges have M8-3. This is a good start point. We don't have enough IBM-body tag set yet. Attachments ---------------- 56LA.xlsx (14KB - 407 downloads) | ||
| |||
| frwl |
| ||
Expert Posts: 2063 | |||
| |||
| RDP |
| ||
Elite Veteran Posts: 1054 Location: PL / EU | |||
| |||
| frwl |
| ||
Expert Posts: 2063 | . I have based on the Detroit-built Chrysler cowl tags, they have numerical codes (S=4 and S=8) same as LA-built Chryslers (M8=4 and M8=8) ’56 Windsors: S = blank = Standard Manual Transmission S4 = Powerflite Transmission S8 = Powerflite Transmission and Power Steering ’56 New Yorkers – a little harder: S = blank = Standard Powerflite Transmission and no info about Power Steering Later, (since February 22, 1956), when the Torqueflite was offered, the New Yorker’s (and Imperial’s) numerical codes have changed slightly: ’56 New Yorkers and Imperial – later: S4 = Powerflite Transmission and probably Power Steering S6 = Torqueflite Transmission and Power Steering Therefore I think that Detroit codes S4 and S8 matches to Los Angeles codes M8=4 and M8=8, while Dodges and Plymouth M8=3 codes are different, but decodes a Powerflite also… (Windsor Newport Code S4.jpg) (Windsor Town and Country Wagon Code S8.JPG) (Imperial Sedan Code S6.jpg) Attachments ---------------- Windsor Newport Code S4.jpg (167KB - 422 downloads) Windsor Town and Country Wagon Code S8.JPG (137KB - 427 downloads) Imperial Sedan Code S6.jpg (220KB - 441 downloads) | ||
| |||
| RDP |
| ||
Elite Veteran Posts: 1054 Location: PL / EU | |||
| |||
| frwl |
| ||
Expert Posts: 2063 | |||
| |||
| RDP |
| ||
Elite Veteran Posts: 1054 Location: PL / EU | |||
| |||
| frwl |
| ||
Expert Posts: 2063 | . I’ll continue… LA-built 1956 DeSoto Fireflite Sportsman recently offered for sale on ebay: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=73230&... As shown on the pictures, the car has: Powerflite Transmission Manual Steering Power Brakes Manual Windows Power Seat Full Leather Upholstery Heater Radio 9 Tube – because it has a 5 push button (8 Tube – 6 push button; correct me, if I’m wrong) Rear Shelf Speaker Dual Rear Aerials Solex Tinted Glass at all Window areas Sun Cap Visor above the Windshield Inside Mirror only The cowl tag picture shows SG = 5, M8 = 4, and M9 = 8 If SG = 1 is a Solex Glass as stated above in this thread, it seems like SG = 5 is a Solex Glass + Sun Cap Visor I have a couple picture of cowl tag with SG = 4, but this still have a mystery… or it might be Sun Cap Visor without Solex Glass… I don’t want to argue about M8 = 4 and M9 = 8, but interesting is next: M8 = 3 and M9 = 8: Powerflite, Radio, Heater – Nathan’s (aka Powerflite) Plymouth Savoy M8 = 4 and M9 = 2: Powerflite, Radio, Heater, PS, PB – Chrysler New Yorker M8 = 4 and M9 = 3: Powerflite, Radio, Heater, PS, PB – DeSoto Fireflite Sportsman (not this one) M8 = 4 and M9 = 0: Powerflite, Radio, Heater, PS, PB – DeSoto Fireflite Sedan (M9 = 0, i.e. blank – I’m not wrong) M8 = 8 and M9 = 8: Powerflite, Radio, Heater, PS, PB – Robert’s (aka RDP) Chrysler Windsor Nassau M8 = 4 and M9 = 8: Powerflite, Radio, Heater, PB – this DeSoto Fireflite Sportsman (which one for sale) Seems these options like Power Steering, Power Brakes and Power Seat (!) are nonstampable on the 1956 LA cowl tags… The Power Windows only in the EW column… (Cowl Tag.JPG) (Radio 5 Push Button.JPG) (Dual Antennas.JPG) (Rear Seat Speaker.JPG) (Power Seat.JPG) (No Power Steering.JPG) Attachments ---------------- Cowl Tag.JPG (101KB - 432 downloads) Radio 5 Push Button.JPG (120KB - 421 downloads) Dual Antennas.JPG (105KB - 422 downloads) Rear Seat Speaker.JPG (87KB - 416 downloads) Power Seat.JPG (105KB - 422 downloads) No Power Steering.JPG (112KB - 449 downloads) | ||
| |||
| Powerflite |
| ||
Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10016 Location: So. Cal | |||
| |||
| RDP |
| ||
Elite Veteran Posts: 1054 Location: PL / EU | another De Soto and updated list Edited by RDP 2020-02-14 12:23 PM (LA-DeS_1 (3).jpg) (LA-DeS_1 (4).jpg) (LA-DeS_1 (5).jpg) (LA-DeS_1 (1a).jpg) Attachments ---------------- LA-DeS_1 (3).jpg (101KB - 422 downloads) LA-DeS_1 (4).jpg (68KB - 413 downloads) LA-DeS_1 (5).jpg (98KB - 410 downloads) LA-DeS_1 (1a).jpg (94KB - 430 downloads) 56LA.xlsx (16KB - 405 downloads) | ||
| |||
| RDP |
| ||
Elite Veteran Posts: 1054 Location: PL / EU | all Plymouth and Dodge have M8=3, but not all have power brakes. M8 does not include power brakes (1a.JPG) Attachments ---------------- 1a.JPG (108KB - 421 downloads) | ||
| |||
| frwl |
| ||
Expert Posts: 2063 | . Nathan, as Robert noted above, the cars with M8=3 not all have power brakes The ’56 Power Steering optional equipment for all cars, except Imperial; The ’56 Power Brakes standard on all Imperials, Chrysler New Yorker, Chrysler 300B and DeSoto Adventurer Although your logical is understandable: (M8=3 is a Powerflite, M8=4 is a Powerflite plus Power Brakes) If we will follow it further, the M8=8 could be Powerflite plus Power DISC Brakes, it was standard on Crown Imperials… Robert, thanks for sharing. It seems that my guessing about SG4 is right. The picture from inside the car shows the windshield is clear, non-tinted, and the upper molding was removed… So, what we have: SG1 = Solex Tinted Glass SG4 = Windshield Upper Moulding SG5 = Solex Tinted Glass and Windshield Upper Moulding P.S. The new «old » picture with code SG4 to your listing… (Windshield Moulding Upper.JPG) (SG4 Example.JPG) Attachments ---------------- Windshield Moulding Upper.JPG (86KB - 420 downloads) SG4 Example.JPG (232KB - 415 downloads) | ||
| |||
| Powerflite |
| ||
Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10016 Location: So. Cal | |||
| |||
| RDP |
| ||
Elite Veteran Posts: 1054 Location: PL / EU | |||
| |||
| RDP |
| ||
Elite Veteran Posts: 1054 Location: PL / EU | Powerflite - 2020-02-14 8:16 PM Are you sure about power brakes being standard on New Yorkers, Adventurers and 300's? I know for a fact that it wasn't standard in 1957 on a New Yorker. I own a '57 New Yorker that didn't come with power brakes. (pb.JPG) Attachments ---------------- pb.JPG (22KB - 420 downloads) | ||
| |||
| Powerflite |
| ||
Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10016 Location: So. Cal | |||
| |||
| frwl |
| ||
Expert Posts: 2063 | . Yes, you are right: in 1957-58 New Yorker has Power Steering as standard equipment and Power Brakes – optional, but 1955-56 New Yorkers: Power Steering – optional and Power Brakes – standard… (1956_Chrysler_New_Yorker_Prestige-16.JPG) Attachments ---------------- 1956_Chrysler_New_Yorker_Prestige-16.JPG (128KB - 403 downloads) | ||
| |||
| RDP |
| ||
Elite Veteran Posts: 1054 Location: PL / EU | |||
| |||
| frwl |
| ||
Expert Posts: 2063 | . I think not. Maybe it is standard on the top-level hardtops Windsor Newport and New Yorker St.Regis only? Like on the ’55 DeSotos… So, my theory is wrong? (55 Desoto Codes.png) Attachments ---------------- 55 Desoto Codes.png (41KB - 418 downloads) | ||
| |||
| RDP |
| ||
Elite Veteran Posts: 1054 Location: PL / EU | |||
| |||
| frwl |
| ||
Expert Posts: 2063 | |||
| |||
| RDP |
| ||
Elite Veteran Posts: 1054 Location: PL / EU | |||
| |||
| Jump to page : 1 2 3 4 Now viewing page 2 [50 messages per page] |
| Search this forum Printer friendly version E-mail a link to this thread |
| (Delete all cookies set by this site) | |
