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A question about torque converter interchange and "pig" interchange.
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jaded13640
Posted 2018-02-05 7:37 PM (#557571)
Subject: A question about torque converter interchange and "pig" interchange.


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Will a modern torque converter with a higher stall slip right in to, say my 57 Surburban's Torqueflight? We're putting together a motor with a more radical camshaft into a 62 Dodge with a 361 and a Torqueflight. I know that the housings are different between the 57 and the 62 but the 62 seems to be very similar to the later versions but without being cable shift. What we don't know is if a modern front clutch drum and torque converter...input shaft, etc would interchange between a "lever shift" modern 727 and a 62 cable shift and even a 57 cable shift version 727. The immediate job is the 62 but I also want to freshen up the trans in my Surburban this winter. It's got a front pump seal leak that I've been putting off for a couple of seasons already. It's time get that done too.

Maybe some people that are experienced with rebuilding the oldies that are knowledgeable about the interchange between later model stuff and the older stuff would like to discuss the parts that do interchange, what doesn't and even what will but would not be a good idea for some reason?

I've got quite a pile of modern 727 stuff. If, for example the front drums are the same, pump components are the same and so on, I could easily toughed up and older unit that is tired.

I actually have the same question about differentials. It looks like a later model, say a 69 suregrip would bolt into the housing of the 57 Surburban (both 8 3/4") but did they use the same number of axle splines, the same depth of spline engagement etc? Do they actually bolt in or does it just look like they do?

Thanks in advance,

Wayne
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Mopar1
Posted 2018-02-06 11:11 AM (#557601 - in reply to #557571)
Subject: Re: A question about torque converter interchange and "pig" interchange.



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The '57 converter bolts to the crank hub with nutted studs, the modern one uses a flexplate bolted to the hub. You can tap the holes on the hub with a 1/2-20 tap & use a 426 hemi flexplate, at least with the modern tranny. The 65-67 or so C body rear axle bolts into most mopars, I'd just swap the whole thing out.
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Shep
Posted 2018-02-06 1:40 PM (#557605 - in reply to #557601)
Subject: Re: A question about torque converter interchange and "pig" interchange.



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727 and cast iron torqueflite internals do not interchange.
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57chizler
Posted 2018-02-06 3:21 PM (#557608 - in reply to #557571)
Subject: RE: A question about torque converter interchange and "pig" interchange.



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All 8 3/4" center sections will physically interchange in the housing and the axle splines are the same but there are variations in the axle shaft length in pre-'64 installations...the open differential takes a longer axle shaft than the Sure-Grip.

Although the crankshaft flange bolt pattern is the same, it's not possible to simply mate a 727 to the early crank due to the difference in the flange length; adapters are needed.
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1960fury
Posted 2018-02-06 3:35 PM (#557609 - in reply to #557608)
Subject: RE: A question about torque converter interchange and "pig" interchange.



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57chizler - 2018-02-06 3:21 PM




Although the crankshaft flange bolt pattern is the same


is it? from what i heard its 2 bolts less and threaded on non hemi cars in the 62+ cars.
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58coupe
Posted 2018-02-06 4:56 PM (#557612 - in reply to #557571)
Subject: Re: A question about torque converter interchange and "pig" interchange.



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The 62 and newer 727 (not the smaller 904) are all very similar in design and parts but I believe there was a change in the splines for the torque converter around 69. The 70 and newer TCs will interchange and you can find high stall units very easily. Some companies used to make high stall units for the 62-69 torqueflites but they may be hard to find now.
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Mopar1
Posted 2018-02-06 5:39 PM (#557614 - in reply to #557609)
Subject: RE: A question about torque converter interchange and "pig" interchange.



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1960fury - 2018-02-06 2:35 PM

57chizler - 2018-02-06 3:21 PM




Although the crankshaft flange bolt pattern is the same


is it? from what i heard its 2 bolts less and threaded on non hemi cars in the 62+ cars.
The 426 Hemi has the same 8 bolt pattern that the "up to '61" cars had. as mentioned above, the early crankflange holes have to be tapped out with a 1/2-20 tap.

Edited by Mopar1 2018-02-06 5:41 PM
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wayfarer
Posted 2018-02-08 10:53 AM (#557685 - in reply to #557571)
Subject: Re: A question about torque converter interchange and "pig" interchange.



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Perhaps a bit fuzzy, I think jaded says that the 361 is a 62. As to a pre-62 B-RB engine, a 'spacer' will be required at the block to make up for the crank flange extension that was typical on all pre-62 engines (exc slant 6) and the crank flange will also require an adapter to provide registration for the flexplate. Post-62 B-RB will have a 'normal' 6-bolt crank flange.
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-02-08 11:24 AM (#557686 - in reply to #557571)
Subject: Re: A question about torque converter interchange and "pig" interchange.



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The internals of a later 727 will bolt into your '62 push button 727, but I believe you need to swap out most of it as a unit, and run the later style tailshaft. I *believe* that only the early valve body & housing is retained. This guy can build you one of these modified transmissions.

http://www.727specialist.com/

'58Coupe is right that the '62 trans has a 19 spline input shaft which is different than the later versions and is hard to get a torque converter for it. I needed to find 2 stock converters recently without a core, and it was difficult, but I did eventually find a place that had them. Getting a high performance version of those is probably very tough. Swapping parts between the cast iron torqueflite and the aluminum A727 is impossible.

On the 8 3/4, *IF* your car originally came with a sure grip rear, then you can swap out the gear with the later versions with no issues. If it was originally open, then the axles are 1/8" too long to do this. Your options are to swap the center pins between the two gear sets (which requires you to remove the carriers, and not too difficult to do), or to shorten your axles by 1/8". I usually just shorten the axles which requires you to remove the chamfer on the end of them, which happens to be 1/8" deep.

Edited by Powerflite 2018-02-08 11:27 AM
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57chizler
Posted 2018-02-08 1:26 PM (#557694 - in reply to #557571)
Subject: RE: A question about torque converter interchange and "pig" interchange.



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jaded13640 - 2018-02-05 4:37 PM
What we don't know is if a modern front clutch drum and torque converter...input shaft, etc would interchange between a "lever shift" modern 727 and a 62 cable shift


'67 was the year that the 727 input shaft changed from 19 to 24 splines. The pre-'67 trans can be fitted with the later input shaft but the reaction shaft support must also be changed. All of the gear train can also be updated to later parts (no later than '73) and this is advisable in a '62-'63 because the planetary gears were failure prone.
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-02-08 10:14 PM (#557720 - in reply to #557694)
Subject: RE: A question about torque converter interchange and "pig" interchange.



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What changed in '73 that prevents you from using the later model parts?
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57chizler
Posted 2018-02-09 2:13 PM (#557769 - in reply to #557720)
Subject: RE: A question about torque converter interchange and "pig" interchange.



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The output shaft changed; in '74 the included angle of the splines for the front planetary changed from 60° to 75° and in '94 it was changed again to 90°.

This was an attempt to prevent failure of the splines in the aluminum planet carrier but it didn't work. Only a change to steel carriers will prevent this failure.

EDIT: '76 was the year the splines changed.

Edited by 57chizler 2018-02-10 4:36 AM
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jaded13640
Posted 2018-02-15 10:34 PM (#558180 - in reply to #557571)
Subject: RE: A question about torque converter interchange and "pig" interchange.


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I probably should have been more specific. I thought I would try to gain generic knowledge about interchange but that was a mistake.

Let me get more specific on an individual basis per job I'm doing at the time.

I'm specifically working on a 62 Dodge Custom 880. We're building a 400 with steel crank to replace the very worn, very tired 361. First I need to come up with a way to add more stall because we're using more cam than a stock converter will allow for. I was just talking to a guy today who's pretty knowledgeable about 727, especially early 60s big block 727s. He said the converters will not interchange and showed me the difference between the two converters. One has a wider slot that goes into the pump tangs and the narrower, the 62 version, is much deeper. He said "all you'll need to do is use a modern pump assembly on the 62 transmission, I happen to have a few of them from anywhere from 66 to whenever they started using the lock up converters. I don't have any lock up stuff at all.

The only other option I can see is to take the 62 converter to a converter building have them "loosen it up". Clearly this would be the far more expensive option and even then, I'd be kind of leary about the results in the end.

Can anyone verify that information regarding being able to just use the pump assembly from a later model?

Thanks,

Wayne
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jaded13640
Posted 2018-02-16 10:42 PM (#558238 - in reply to #557571)
Subject: Re: A question about torque converter interchange and "pig" interchange.


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I've got an update. I got the motor and trans out of the 62 Dodge Custom 880. Much to my surprise, the converter, the factory one that was in the trans, more than likely the original factory unity, has the same width and depth of slots that drive the pump. However, I attempted to install a modern torque converter, with the same dimensions on the pump drive slots but it wouldn't go in. When I was over at that dude's house he showed me a modern one and one from a 62 and the slots were clearly different to the naked eye...without measuring. The 62 unit has a narrower slots and are deeper than the modern one. If dude is right about the slots being the only difference, I'm just not getting it properly lined up. I have run into that in the past, I recall, on a 76 Duster with the slant 6, I was not able to get the converter to line up until we stood the trans on end and kept messing with it until, "clunk" it dropped right in. It was the converter that came out of it. After replacing the converter seal I put the same comverter back in the same trans. I know that the inner shaft, that the converter goes over and engages with, is the input shaft. I believe that outer thing, that is splined and goes into the converter is referred to as the support. But I can't swear to that being the exact name. It would be that the "support is a different diameter or has a different spline...I don't know. Again, I've never done much with the push button transmission.

So, at this point, I don't know if there are more differences between the 62 converter and the modern one we're attempting to use than the pump drive slots alone. So, again, if anyone has more info on the interchangability of converters, I could REAlly use that help.

Thanks in advance,

Wayne
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Shep
Posted 2018-02-17 7:46 PM (#558274 - in reply to #558238)
Subject: Re: A question about torque converter interchange and "pig" interchange.



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Have you checked the spline count and diameter of the input shaft and reaction support between the the trans That the convertor came out of and the one you are trying to install it it in?

Edited by Shep 2018-02-17 7:49 PM
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mstrug
Posted 2018-02-17 7:56 PM (#558276 - in reply to #557571)
Subject: Re: A question about torque converter interchange and "pig" interchange.



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https://www.allpar.com/mopar/transmissions/identifying-torqueflites....

http://smrtrans.tripod.com/smrtransmissionsintro/id9.html

http://bouchillonperformance.com/inc/sdetail/5237

http://www.atiracing.com/products/adapterk/akit.htm

http://non-stoptransmission.com/en/info-converters.php





Edited by mstrug 2018-02-17 8:11 PM
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jaded13640
Posted 2018-02-18 10:50 PM (#558376 - in reply to #558274)
Subject: Re: A question about torque converter interchange and "pig" interchange.


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Shep - 2018-02-17 7:46 PM

Have you checked the spline count and diameter of the input shaft and reaction support between the the trans That the convertor came out of and the one you are trying to install it it in?


Spline count yes, diameters no. I got a core from a friend and the converter we want to use is correct for it. The plan is to use the donor trans' pump assembly and input shaft/rear drum assembly, possibly the front drum if necessary.
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Shep
Posted 2018-02-19 12:48 PM (#558406 - in reply to #558376)
Subject: Re: A question about torque converter interchange and "pig" interchange.



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Ok, so both transmissions you are using here are 727s?
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57chizler
Posted 2018-02-19 5:17 PM (#558417 - in reply to #558238)
Subject: Re: A question about torque converter interchange and "pig" interchange.



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jaded13640 - 2018-02-16 7:42 PM

I know that the inner shaft, that the converter goes over and engages with, is the input shaft. I believe that outer thing, that is splined and goes into the converter is referred to as the support. But I can't swear to that being the exact name. It would be that the "support is a different diameter or has a different spline...I don't know.


The outer stationary splines are called the reaction shaft support, it supports the stator inside the converter. The input shafts in the pic below, the upper shaft is the pre-'67 19-spline and the lower one is the '67-later 24-spline.

By changing the two parts it is possible to use the later converter....a wise upgrade.



(Inputshafts.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments Inputshafts.jpg (66KB - 5 downloads)
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