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looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project
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Darryl T
Posted 2018-02-19 7:10 PM (#558422)
Subject: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project



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After doing a mostly faithful restoration on the '57 Dodge convertible, as an old hotrodder I am starting on a project to build a long-distance cruiser out of my newly acquired '57 Dodge 2-door wagon. I am a huge fan of Glen Dailey's SRT8 '56 Chrysler, and of the work done by Mike M. and others along that line. I bought an '06 Chrysler 300C and am in the process of dismantling it, moving the independent rearend, engine/trans, floor, possibly dashboard, etc into the wagon. My original plan was to use the 300C front suspension, including ABS brakes, all computers, navigation, A/C, etc. like Glen did, but that is a massive undertaking. I have the rearend mocked up, and am now considering the use of either a front disc brake conversion, or a Fatman independent retrofit front suspension, and an aftermarket wiring kit to simplify that part. I am an experienced builder/fabricator, but at 68 and working alone, I have concerns on how long the full project may take. So for you guys who have been down this road, any advice? My goal is a comfortable, safe, get-parts-for-it-anywhere long distance cruiser that still looks old but is totally reliable. It will have A/C and the works, but would it be easier to just use aftermarket stuff instead of the 300C pieces? I have considered contracting with a street rod shop to do the heavy work, but finding a qualified one around here is a challenge. Plus they tend to look at you like you're daft when you describe what you are doing.... And as Glen knows, building it is much of the fun anyway.
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51coronet
Posted 2018-02-19 9:31 PM (#558430 - in reply to #558422)
Subject: Re: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project


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my 2 cents. Use what you can from the 300 that way there are less "aftermarket" or custom pieces. Timeframe is a hard one to determine. Lots of times as you know it comes down to how much $$$ you are willing to throw at it. 2.5 or 3 years for a weekend warrior or 1.5 years if you can invest the time daily is my guess. It's a lot of work for 1 person. Even if you can get a youngster to help with little projects on a regular basis would help immensely with time.
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mikes2nd
Posted 2018-02-19 10:21 PM (#558436 - in reply to #558422)
Subject: Re: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project


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im having a flashback, same thing that I wanted.

if they look at you like your daft, you need to maybe look elsewhere though.

And having done/doing something close it can be very expensive if you ship it out, you'll need deep pockets.

I have a "pro-touring" 1970 GTO with a C6 Z06 front clip adapted to the front of a 70 gto frame and I have narrowed and replaced the whole rear frame.
I have a 2012 Camaro SS LS3 with a better cam and heads and all nice and tight(30k mile motor), a 6 speed tremec, z06 brakes front and back.
I also obtained a salvage 2004 GTO and chopped the entire body floor out of it and moved it into the 70 body. I put in a roll cage in it, on the back I have a 2013 Mustang Gt500 rear setup(axle, watts link) etc.
This has been a long haul... and I did all the work myself pretty much. I have the entire interior of the 2004 along with the wiring harnesses and electronics. I will prob put the abs system in it with maybe the air bags. since I have the same seats and everything is the same(floor seat mounting, steering wheel etc), the airbags should be safe to use. The frame is a lot stronger than a unibody and even cross framed.

I'm in pretty deep already and hope to be close to finishing it up sometime next year once I get my 57 Dodge rolling. And I expect to be doing a similar pro touring/Gran touring FWL car next! with a 6.4 hemi.
I am eyeballing a SRT Magnum body shell since it has a longer wheelbase and would be an easier cut.

I think using the 300C Parts will be easier on your pockets that's for sure. some of these willwood brakes are triple the cost of big factory brakes with the same specs and performance. It depends on how far you want to go. You really have to figure out if you okay with the 57 wagon suspension parts and the torsion bar setup makes it a bit more tricky. I think converting to lower control arms and coil overs could be done(weld some brackets underneath and utilize a similar length lower control arms). My car can go to the road course, drag strip or long haul... Since your not going to be road coursing the wagon I would probably stick with factory frame and rear end. You could probably adapt a rear end fairly easily but its easier with solid axle. The 300C has a independent rear and it requires a lot more work to swap in.

I got into this whole mess (gto) because I wanted nice hubs up front and these guys charged 1500$ just for a set of hubs to replace the spindles on the car. Then some guy had a whole C6 front end for 750, included steering rack, control arms/etc and the engine cradle shipped! I was like uhg im cooked.


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mikes2nd
Posted 2018-02-19 11:00 PM (#558443 - in reply to #558422)
Subject: Re: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project


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Here is a picture of my 70 GTO all tucked away this winter... heh FWL stuff piled on it. I was welding the dodge big time to get it ready to reframe hopefully this winter.

I am kind of reluctant I have 20's on the back now, probably should have stuck with 18's or 19's but these Z06 brakes are frigging huge. I could barely get the 18's on the front. I have nearly no room up there.





(70GTO.jpg)



(oemfirewall.jpg)



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Attachments 70GTO.jpg (237KB - 26 downloads)
Attachments oemfirewall.jpg (156KB - 26 downloads)
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Darryl T
Posted 2018-02-19 11:16 PM (#558444 - in reply to #558436)
Subject: Re: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project



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I worked 6 days a week, 10 hours a day on the convert restoration, hiring a body shop to do the paint, and it took only 17 months. I just finished restoring a DeLorean totaled with an engine fire, and that took slightly over 12 months with much shorter days. So I have a pretty good idea how long projects take. But I also know Momma isn't going to tolerate that 6 day/10 hour schedule this time. One reason I bought the 300C was that unlike the convert restoration, this time I would already have 80% of the parts I needed right there. But I'm starting to wonder if there isn't an easier way to achieve my goals. Selling the DeLorean did give my car fund a needed boost, and my state employment retirement just got a 90% boost since my ex-wife died and won't be needing her share anymore.... so some level of additional expense can be tolerated.

I already have the independent rearend in place and the brackets designed. It was amazingly simple. I will tack weld them for now and finish them when the body comes off the frame. Another issue I have is a definite lack of space. While having a 6+ place garage sounds good, it is actually 3 small buildings with one space dedicated as a workshop. The wagon and 300C are less than 4 feet apart, and the wall on the other side of the wagon is less than 2 feet away, plus the shop is only 20 feet deep. I haven't quite figured out how I am going to remove the body, but will when the time comes. That's another reason I have considered biting the bullet and farming some of the heavy work out.

Edited by Darryl T 2018-02-20 2:08 AM
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mikes2nd
Posted 2018-02-19 11:26 PM (#558445 - in reply to #558422)
Subject: Re: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project


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some other pics... its been a long road





(Firewallcut.jpg)



(z06Cradle.jpg)



(testfit.jpg)



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Attachments z06Cradle.jpg (153KB - 19 downloads)
Attachments testfit.jpg (145KB - 24 downloads)
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mstrug
Posted 2018-02-20 7:15 AM (#558460 - in reply to #558422)
Subject: Re: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project



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it! It's going to be a fine vehicle. Marc.
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-02-20 12:50 PM (#558481 - in reply to #558422)
Subject: RE: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project



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If you insist on keeping the 300C front suspension, then it would be easier to keep the entire 300C frame and adapt the 57 body over the top of it. People who do this approach usually keep the 300C dash & seats with all of their controls intact. This allows you to retain the comforts & ugly plastics of the 300C interior. But the T-bar front suspension is really well designed so the benefit of changing it out is minimal. You also lose the main appeal of the old Dodge dash and steering wheel. The other approach is to keep your '57 Dodge frame and adapt a new suspension to that. I think this is a much better approach because you get to keep the old interior, but adapting the 300C front suspension to it will be very challenging and will require an enormous amount of fab work. You will need to support the upper mount on the struts really well, and this will require huge changes to tie the body and (or at least) the inner fenders to the frame to make it stable enough to support the weight of the car during cornering. Don't do a Fatman Mustang II front end on it unless you just want to drag race the thing. Mustang II coil-over is a downgrade from your original T-bars. But you can adapt the rear suspension from the 300C to your Dodge frame that shouldn't require too much work to accomplish. So in summary, I would keep your T-bars and adapt the 300C rear on the Dodge frame.

But, for real cruising comfort, you should concentrate on all the other little things that make these old cars less enjoyable to drive. These things are typically far more important.
1. Great brakes - Scarebird offers 12" that work great. Or you can opt for Wilwood to possibly get even bigger versions.
2. Quiet interior - You can use dynamat type of sound deadening to help quite a bit, but this won't solve wind noise issues. Most of the wind noise comes from the wing windows & poor fitting door seals on a sedan. You could create new windows that eliminate the wing windows to eliminate this problem. I have also seen people use urethane sealer to shut the wing windows off for good. This prevents you from using them, but keeps it looking more stock. You will also need to eliminate all creaks and rattles. Good poly-urethane body-to-frame mounts will help a lot.
3. Better seats - You can try to create a more custom cushion on your original seats or else swap them out with newer versions.
4. 3-point seat belts - If you plan to drive the car a lot then you will need safer seat belts so you can drive in LA, Houston or other big city traffic and not risk your life when you get into an accident.
5. Good stereo system!
6. Wider tires with shorter sidewalls - The #1 biggest effect on your handling will be in your tire choice. There is no reason to swap to IRS if you insist on running 70 series tires!!!!! There will be no benefit to doing so because your tires will limit your handling capability.
7. Large front sway bar - adapt a large hollow sway bar to the front of the car with mounts that can support the stress that will be put onto it.
8. Align with more caster - Put at least 2 degrees of positive caster in the front of the car. If this ends up requiring custom upper control arms, then have them fabricated. But I believe that this shouldn't be necessary.
9. A good A/C-heater system! - Work on adapting a good evaporator system under your dash and using a newer Sanden compressor to drive it. Decide if you would like to provide good A/C or heat to the rear of the car too.
10. Overdrive or high gears - You can swap out the internals of a push button 727 and mount a gear vendor's overdrive to the back of it, use a newer 727 with a cable shift adapter & overdrive, or you can just install 2.76 highway gears in the back to reduce engine noise & wear.
11. Convert to fuel injection - FiTech & Holley make easy bolt-on fuel injection setups that don't cost a lot to install. Or you can adapt a port-injection setup to an aluminum intake. This will make the car start easily & run well in any weather condition. But you should baffle your fuel tank and install a pump into it with easy access to pull it out.
12. Lighten up your car & reduce un-sprung weight - use as many aluminum parts on your drivetrain as you can to lighten it up. Also use lightweight components for your brakes (i.e. aluminum calipers) & suspension.

These kinds of things will have a much bigger impact on long distance cruising ability than the front or rear suspension choices. Of course, the last 3 will be taken care of automatically if you use the entire 300C drivetrain.

Edited by Powerflite 2018-02-20 1:06 PM
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Darryl T
Posted 2018-02-20 1:42 PM (#558485 - in reply to #558481)
Subject: RE: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project



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Powerflite - 2018-02-20 9:50 AM

If you insist on keeping the 300C front suspension, then it would be easier to keep the entire 300C frame and adapt the 57 body over the top of it. .


I'd do that if the modern 300C had a frame, but unfortunately it doesn't.
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-02-20 2:54 PM (#558491 - in reply to #558485)
Subject: RE: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project



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I know it doesn't, but you can cut and adapt. This is one example, but I have seen it done where they use a lot more of the 300C frame structure.

https://www.diyauto.com/manufacturers/plymouth/generations/road-runn...

Like I said, I don't really like this approach though. Another option is to swap frames with a Dodge Ram truck. But you won't get the IRS with that so the benefit will be negligible.

Edited by Powerflite 2018-02-20 3:07 PM
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mikes2nd
Posted 2018-02-20 4:33 PM (#558501 - in reply to #558422)
Subject: Re: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project


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rofl diyauto copies build threads and posts them.. hah

https://moparforums.com/forums/f6/srt8-road-runner-build-13162/index...

that is pretty similar to my build except I kept my frame to keep the chassis strong.
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1960fury
Posted 2018-02-20 4:41 PM (#558502 - in reply to #558422)
Subject: Re: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project



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yikes, i hope someone invents some type of plastic shell or hull that looks like an old car that the new car lovers can wrap over their political correct, new rides with all the *** comfort so they can be "cool". this would save alot of the old, real detroit iron.
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mikes2nd
Posted 2018-02-20 4:58 PM (#558504 - in reply to #558422)
Subject: Re: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project


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yeah that would be easier. heh maybe ill make a fiberglass finned car body. that could have been a junk coronet, remember you can buy all the sheet metal for those cars.

You don't actually even need to start with a real car.

I don't think anyone has wasted a good 2 door hardtop yet for this kind of swap. The one guy did the two door sedan and the Twistine was a lowly stripped savoy? so 2 cars...

This is not a trend, because it takes tons of time and money but honestly its "cool", if every car was bone stock it would be a pretty boring world... no on can dare customize! you shall be eliminated if you customize a car!!! it must be stock forever!! how dare you
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Phatton
Posted 2018-02-26 9:05 AM (#558832 - in reply to #558422)
Subject: Re: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project


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It always boils down to how much money, time and effort you want to put in and what level of performance/handling you're looking for. I would consider keeping and rebuilding the front T bar suspension and adding front disc brakes and maybe adapting an adjustable upper control arm. I installed a 5.7L Hemi and overdrive auto trans from a 2005 dodge pickup into a 1974 Challenger. One of the major problems I encountered was trying to use the pickup's wiring harness in the challenger. There are many sensors in the 2005 pickup which are not wanted or needed the Challenger but the computer wants to see to operate. I tired tracing the wiring wire by wire using the trucks wiring diagram but was not successful. Luckly there are aftermarket wiring harness's available for around $1,000 that solve this problem. The other issues I had was pinion angle. I had to massage my trans tunnel and rear mount to get the angle I needed. Between the engine/trans install and repairing or replacing every piece of sheet metal on the car, this project took me 10 years to complete. I threw all my receipts away cause I don't want to know how much I have into it. I'm also an old guy. I have much more enthusiasm than talent and can't seem to stay away from old cars. Good luck.
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Mike McCandless
Posted 2018-02-26 10:15 AM (#558833 - in reply to #558422)
Subject: Re: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project


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Use all the stock suspension, upgrade the brakes, the 5.7 drops in easily and call it a day.
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1955windsor
Posted 2018-02-27 6:06 AM (#558888 - in reply to #558422)
Subject: Re: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project


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Backbay Customs in Portland Maine dropped a 56 Imperial over a Dodge Magnum SRT8, a lot of work but they did an amazing job, I have seen the car in person. They had a ton of pictures on there website on what they did but i cant seem to locate those pictures now. When I seen the car they had put a little over 20,000 miles on it at that point.
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Darryl T
Posted 2018-02-27 12:19 PM (#558915 - in reply to #558888)
Subject: Re: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project



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1955windsor - 2018-02-27 3:06 AM

Backbay Customs in Portland Maine dropped a 56 Imperial over a Dodge Magnum SRT8, a lot of work but they did an amazing job, I have seen the car in person. They had a ton of pictures on there website on what they did but i cant seem to locate those pictures now.

I checked their website but didn't find anything on it. Can anyone provide a link? I think I saw this car in a magazine article but went back through all of mine and did not find it.
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-02-27 1:44 PM (#558919 - in reply to #558422)
Subject: RE: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project



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These are the pictures of it. They took what I called approach No. 1, in that they put the Imperial body shell around the modified 300 frame. This means that they end up with a 300 dash & seating with all the benefits and drawbacks of that approach. You essentially end up with a 20XX Chrysler 300 that looks like a '56 Imperial on the outside.

Edited by Powerflite 2018-02-27 1:48 PM




(BBCustoms 56Imp.jpg)



(BBCustoms 56Imp Rear.jpg)



(BBCustoms 56Imp Interior.jpg)



(BBCustoms 56Imp Engine.jpg)



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Attachments BBCustoms 56Imp.jpg (144KB - 20 downloads)
Attachments BBCustoms 56Imp Rear.jpg (155KB - 23 downloads)
Attachments BBCustoms 56Imp Interior.jpg (68KB - 21 downloads)
Attachments BBCustoms 56Imp Engine.jpg (133KB - 21 downloads)
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-02-27 1:49 PM (#558920 - in reply to #558422)
Subject: RE: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project



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But I prefer the second approach that keeps most of the old car frame & body, but modifies them with new suspension components & drivetrain. That is the approach taken with this '55 Imperial convertible.

https://www.good-guys.com/hotnews/1955-chrysler-imperial-convertible...





(Wayne-Davis-1955-Chrysler-044.jpg)



(1955_chrysler_imperial_croty_finalist_06.jpg)



(1955_chrysler_imperial_croty_finalist_10-800x533.jpg)



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Attachments Wayne-Davis-1955-Chrysler-044.jpg (109KB - 19 downloads)
Attachments 1955_chrysler_imperial_croty_finalist_06.jpg (164KB - 24 downloads)
Attachments 1955_chrysler_imperial_croty_finalist_10-800x533.jpg (84KB - 21 downloads)
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57burb
Posted 2018-02-27 1:53 PM (#558921 - in reply to #558920)
Subject: RE: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project



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I've known Wayne all my life and he has had a lot of amazing cars. That phantom '55 is probably one of my favorites.
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1955windsor
Posted 2018-02-27 2:35 PM (#558929 - in reply to #558915)
Subject: Re: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project


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Darryl T - 2018-02-27 1:19 PM

1955windsor - 2018-02-27 3:06 AM

Backbay Customs in Portland Maine dropped a 56 Imperial over a Dodge Magnum SRT8, a lot of work but they did an amazing job, I have seen the car in person. They had a ton of pictures on there website on what they did but i cant seem to locate those pictures now.

I checked their website but didn't find anything on it. Can anyone provide a link? I think I saw this car in a magazine article but went back through all of mine and did not find it.


On the Back Bay Customs Facebook page, in their photos section there is a lot of picture of the build, they are close to the end of their photos.
That '55 Imperial Convertible is stunning!!
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Mike McCandless
Posted 2018-02-27 11:26 PM (#558953 - in reply to #558422)
Subject: Re: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project


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The 55 imperial is amazing
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2018-03-03 9:24 PM (#559160 - in reply to #558953)
Subject: Re: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project



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To my thinking, the period interior is every bit as important
as that finned body. Without it, ... ugh, why bother ?

Post-1970 interiors suck ass.
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mikes2nd
Posted 2018-03-03 10:27 PM (#559164 - in reply to #558422)
Subject: Re: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project


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the interior is pretty blechy i admit, Chrysler was not very imaginative in 2009-2013...

Fiat actually showed up and said "dude that's a truck interior in your nice Challenger"...

I like my 2004 GTO interior way better than that one, I admit having an original looking interior with a retrofit car is the best but you can't always swing it if you want to keep all the electronics and stuff, its cost prohibitive unless you want to spend another 100k. That is pretty much just an engine swap. That air cleaner is a bit "funky" on the imperial but it keeps the shape of the old engine.

I think Chrysler is making better interiors now.

here is a picture of the 2004 GTO interior I am using on my 70 GTO and here is the current challenger interior which is alot nice than that "truck" interior...





(GTOInterior.jpg)



(Dodge-Challenger-2018-Interior-Design.jpg)



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Attachments GTOInterior.jpg (118KB - 20 downloads)
Attachments Dodge-Challenger-2018-Interior-Design.jpg (89KB - 23 downloads)
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mikes2nd
Posted 2018-03-03 10:31 PM (#559165 - in reply to #558422)
Subject: Re: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project


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the 300 got a new interior also.. Looks good but not as good as the Challenger I think.  I take it back i like the 300C interior better...



Edited by mikes2nd 2018-03-03 10:34 PM




(platinum-dashboard300.jpg)



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57burb
Posted 2018-03-05 12:34 PM (#559271 - in reply to #559165)
Subject: Re: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project



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Different strokes for everyone, but in my opinion, fat padded steering wheels and barcalounger seats and touch screens and cup holders and airbags have no place at all in a vintage car.

If you want the interior and driving experience of a new car, it's cheaper and easier to just go buy one.
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mikes2nd
Posted 2018-03-05 5:00 PM (#559290 - in reply to #558422)
Subject: Re: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project


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yeah but if you've got a rusty project car like me with no engine, no floors, almost falling in two, destroyed or no interior at all... well... you get the point... This is a viable option
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Chrispy
Posted 2018-04-17 11:01 AM (#561777 - in reply to #558422)
Subject: Re: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project



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Get good brakes on it, aquire the factory AC box for it, 4 link it and shove the 5.7 in it, thats the easiest way to go for what you want i think. Well maybe not the factory A/C box but still.
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-04-17 12:08 PM (#561781 - in reply to #558920)
Subject: RE: looking for advice on Gen III hem 57 Dodgei project



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Are there more photos of the 55 Imperial Convertible somewhere that shows where the air intake goes from this?



Edited by 56D500boy 2018-04-17 12:09 PM
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