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Dual Master
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albjerryg
Posted 2018-04-12 8:08 PM (#561498)
Subject: Dual Master


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Location: lafayette,La.
I have a 1958 Saratoga with power brakes. Is there a Dual Master cylinder that is a direct fit for the old single master. I guess a remote fill would be best because you cannot get to the reservoir with the power brake unit. Thanks For any help. Jerry



(08.jpg)



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56D500boy
Posted 2018-04-12 8:49 PM (#561500 - in reply to #561498)
Subject: RE: Dual Master



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If you are staying drum/drum, this Cardone should work (based on a previous thread0:

56D500boy - 2016-11-23 5:58 PM

jimntempe - 2015-11-08 1:23 PM
Looking at rockauto this looks like the right MC is... [A-1 CARDONE 101323 Reman. w/ Reservoir Info Fury Base Model; Power brakes] It's a 1.00" bore.


Looks like the Cardone 13-1323M (manual, drum/drum) is still available and cheap. Looks like it would bolt right up (I'm thinking for my 56 CR)

http://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/cardone+select,131323M,master+cyli...

http://www.cardone.com/Products/Product-Detail?productId=131323M&p=...



REFERENCE: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=59648&...



Edited by 56D500boy 2018-04-12 8:50 PM
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-04-12 9:41 PM (#561504 - in reply to #561498)
Subject: RE: Dual Master



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I like this remote setup, but it does require an adapter and a residual pressure valve for the rear because it is made for disc/disc. If interested, I will let you know where you can get the parts.



(Remote Master.jpg)



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albjerryg
Posted 2018-04-13 4:04 AM (#561524 - in reply to #561500)
Subject: RE: Dual Master


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Location: lafayette,La.
ok Thanks for the info. Jerry
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albjerryg
Posted 2018-04-13 4:06 AM (#561525 - in reply to #561504)
Subject: RE: Dual Master


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Yes I am interested would you let me know what the parts are and the adapter plate. Thanks Jerry
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-04-13 10:01 AM (#561539 - in reply to #561498)
Subject: RE: Dual Master



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The master cylinder comes from Ebay here:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/remote-fill-master-cylinder-street-rod-rat-...

You can get a 4-bolt to 2-bolt adapter from Mopar or Classic Performance. Some of them need to be opened up slightly to fit the master properly, but not by very much. Looks like Mopar increased their price again, making it pretty expensive for what it is. The ad says it is made of steel, but the ones I have purchased were aluminum. The CPP version is steel and cheaper, but may be a little too thin, I'm not sure. It might be worth it to make your own adapter at a local machine shop so You can get it exactly as you want it. The master has a 2nd step to a larger bore size. I had to insert 2 washers under the studs to keep it at that level. But with a custom adapter, you could create a relief for that larger diameter.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/dcc-5249315

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/clp-mca-m

The remote reservior that comes with the kit might be useable, but it is a little too wide to fit well. It will likely hit the hood spring and interfere with the bellows. So I used a remote reservoir (part no. RR2) from Classic Performance Parts. You can get it at summit racing too.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/clp-rr2

If you would like it to be a different color, you can get it anodized before you assemble it. But I think it looks good as-is on a black car like yours and mine. It comes with 4 mounting holes on the back of it, but I only mounted it with the 2 outer holes. Putting the inner ones in place is more of a pain, and aren't really necessary.

Oh, and here is the 10lb residual valve for the drum brakes. There are many different brands to choose from, but this is the cheapest one.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/aaf-all41049

Be sure to use hose that is compatible with brake fluid. Most of them aren't. I got mine from Ebay, but you might be able to get it from your local parts store.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brake-Fluid-Compatible-Hose-6mm-1-4-ID-Moto...

Edited by Powerflite 2018-04-13 10:31 AM
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albjerryg
Posted 2018-04-13 10:34 AM (#561541 - in reply to #561539)
Subject: RE: Dual Master


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thanks you very much for the information I really do appreciate it. Again Thanks Jerry
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-04-13 1:25 PM (#561547 - in reply to #561498)
Subject: Re: Dual Master



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Sure. One other thing to keep in mind is that this is a GM style master so it uses 9/16-18 thread on one port instead of 9/16-20 thread like the Mopar masters. Fortunately, the 9/16-18 is easier to find than the Mopar version.

And.... I recommend using 3/16 tube for the front disc brake port instead of 1/4 tube. Just use a 1/4 to 3/16 adapter at the brake tee. The reason for this is that the 1/4 tube is very stiff and hard to move the master out of the way when you need to remove your valve cover. If you use 1/4 tube (like I did ) then you will likely have to disconnect that tube before you can move it.

Edited by Powerflite 2018-04-13 1:35 PM
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-04-13 2:33 PM (#561548 - in reply to #561539)
Subject: RE: Dual Master



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That's a great list Nathan. It should be a sticky so it is easily found by others seeking the same info in the near future.



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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2018-04-14 4:51 AM (#561588 - in reply to #561498)
Subject: Re: Dual Master



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If you would cut off the mounting flange of the old master cylinder, you have a nice base to fabyourself a 4-to-2 bolt adapter out of.
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JGC403
Posted 2019-06-19 10:42 PM (#583748 - in reply to #561498)
Subject: Re: Dual Master


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Anyone have an updated ebay link for the Master cylinder? The link no longer works.
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-06-19 11:26 PM (#583751 - in reply to #561498)
Subject: RE: Dual Master



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If you are referring to the remote master that I used on my car, it is no longer available. Shame because I really liked that one. But I found that a master from a 1990 Mitsubishi FUSO truck should be a good replacement. It has a 1.125" bore size, the same as the other one from ebay. It's a 4-bolt master like the Chrysler units, but the mounting holes have to be moved outward a little to make it work. I just machined them to match the Chrysler pattern and it bolts on nicely. It does use metric line nuts so you need to make your own lines with the proper nuts on them. I would expect it to be setup for disc/drum already, but I haven't verified it yet. The best place to get them is from summit racing.

Edited by Powerflite 2019-06-19 11:30 PM




(Modified Master.jpg)



(Fuso Master Mods.jpg)



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Attachments Fuso Master Mods.jpg (47KB - 34 downloads)
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mstrug
Posted 2019-06-20 6:56 AM (#583759 - in reply to #561498)
Subject: Re: Dual Master



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Fuso MC with 1.17'' bore:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brake-Master-Cylinder-Dorman-M630742-fits-8...
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mikes2nd
Posted 2019-06-20 9:37 AM (#583763 - in reply to #561498)
Subject: Re: Dual Master


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you can also move the MC a bit over if you have a hemi or 440.

I have to use this one to clear the hemi valve covers

https://www.manciniracing.com/ofadforlamom2.html
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GaryS
Posted 2019-06-20 3:56 PM (#583789 - in reply to #561498)
Subject: Re: Dual Master



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I seem to recall reading that a '68 drum-drum master for a C-body is a bolt-on.

Edited by GaryS 2019-06-20 3:57 PM
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gt46tc
Posted 2019-08-26 9:01 PM (#586611 - in reply to #561498)
Subject: RE: Dual Master


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Location: Texas
There is one in every crowd and I guess I am it. Permit why there is a downside to a dual chamber master cylinder on vintage vehicles.

I attended a Bendix brake school in the late 1960's. The instructor told this story.

A cab company was having issues with self adjusting brakes. Severe braking would cause an expansion of the brake drums. Upon backing into a driveway the self adjusters would hyper adjust the shoes. In the few minutes it took to unload the passengers the drums would cool enough to lock the drums. The cab company hired a shop to install manual adjusters. In short order a cab was involved in a serious accident. It was determined the dual master cylinder reservoir was of minimal fluid capacity as there was no need to compensate for shoe adjustment since the self adjuster prevented badly out of adjustment shoes. The wreck was determined to be caused by a master cylinder without sufficient fluid capacity to compensate for shoe wear.

The cab company sued the shop claiming the shop defeated a safe design by installing manual adjusters and should have known the safety issues involved. The cab company won a millions of dollars settlement against the shop even though they requested the modification. The shop had the responsibility of greater knowledge and should have refused the job.

Point is single master cylinders had a fluid capacity to compensate for shoe wear. Dual cylinders may not.

Changing to a dual master cylinder from a single master cylinder does have possible issues and owner should be aware of..
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Mopar1
Posted 2019-08-27 6:52 AM (#586626 - in reply to #583789)
Subject: Re: Dual Master



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GaryS - 2019-06-20 2:56 PM

I seem to recall reading that a '68 drum-drum master for a C-body is a bolt-on.
I used apx. that (but disc/drum) when I put '77 NYer disc spindles & a 9" rear in my '60 Plym.
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Shep
Posted 2019-08-28 7:31 AM (#586689 - in reply to #586611)
Subject: RE: Dual Master



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Gotta disagree with the theory about a dual master being under capacity to compensate for brake wear. The Raybestos drum/drum master from a 66 New Yorker, installed isolating front from rear has more capacity than the single, by far.
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gt46tc
Posted 2019-08-28 1:11 PM (#586704 - in reply to #561498)
Subject: Re: Dual Master


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Location: Texas
Your assumption is ALL dual master cylinders must have large fluid capacity just because your Raybestos cylinder does. That could be a fatal assumption. The comparison would be does EACH fluid chamber in a dual master cylinder have a fluid capacity that exceeds the single chamber fluid capacity. If either chamber in a dual master cylinder was smaller than the total capacity of a single master cylinder fluid starvation could occur. Point is not what your dial cylinder has but an awareness that many different designs occur and fluid capacity is a real safety concern.
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Shep
Posted 2019-08-28 4:03 PM (#586712 - in reply to #586704)
Subject: Re: Dual Master



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Agreed, but is up to the car owner to do his due diligence and pick right cylinder and get advice if he is inexperieced.



Edited by Shep 2019-08-28 4:05 PM
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