The Forward Look Network
The Forward Look Network
Search | Statistics | User Listing Forums | Chat | eBay | Calendars | Albums | Skins | Language
You are logged in as a guest. ( logon | register )

Advice on swapping out my 361
Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page]
View previous thread :: View next thread
   Forward Look Technical Discussions -> The Exhaust Pipe - Modification & PerformanceMessage format
 
drosera88
Posted 2018-04-20 2:44 PM (#561984)
Subject: Advice on swapping out my 361



Elite Veteran

Posts: 1167
10001002525
Location: San Antonio TX

So the 361 in my 61 Windsor is starting to show it's age, and ever since I got the car, I've wanted to do a swap for a larger engine with more options for aftermarket performance parts. My first choice would have been a 426 hemi but I think that's a bit outside my budget. The more likely options I've narrrowed down are a 413, 426 wedge, an earlier hemi, or the 440. My biggest concern is keeping the car original looking on the outside (no scoop or hood modifications) and not messing with the transmission (I like the push buttons and do not want to cut a hole in the floor boards for a shifter) outside of an adapter. Also, this would be my first venture into engine swapping, so the simpler the better. I figure the 413 would be the easiest since it was an option in 61, but if a 440 or 426 could be dropped in without too much trouble, I'd definitely rather have one of those instead. A 392 Hemi would also be nice, but I'm leaning more toward a newer engine. 

All help greatly appreciated. This would be my first swap and my mechanic would be helping me out with this because I don't want to royally screw this up. I'd also be getting a rebuildible used motor rather than a crate so for the sake of saving money and learning how to rebuild an engine. 

Top of the page Bottom of the page
BigBlockMopar
Posted 2018-04-20 2:55 PM (#561985 - in reply to #561984)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361



Expert

Posts: 3527
2000100050025
Location: Netherlands
If you don't want to change the trasnsmission then you must pick/find a pre '62 engine, because you need the special rear 'long-flange' crank they have.
Or if you want to rebuild an engine, you can use all the parts from a newer one but you still need to find a long-flange crank so the original stall convertor will bolt on to it.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
Mopar1
Posted 2018-04-21 8:47 AM (#562012 - in reply to #561985)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361



Expert

Posts: 2721
2000500100100
Location: N.W. Fla.
BigBlockMopar - 2018-04-20 1:55 PM

If you don't want to change the trasnsmission then you must pick/find a pre '62 engine, because you need the special rear 'long-flange' crank they have.
Or if you want to rebuild an engine, you can use all the parts from a newer one but you still need to find a long-flange crank so the original stall convertor will bolt on to it.

Yup, except it has to be a pre'62 big block to keep the tranny. Or get a later engine, big or small block, & tranny. Parts for the 383, 440 & 400 would be cheaper than the 413/426W. A 360 would be a better choice than the 361.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wayfarer
Posted 2018-04-21 9:34 AM (#562015 - in reply to #561984)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361



Elite Veteran

Posts: 777
500100100252525
Location: Central Ory-Gun
You can use any of the B&RB engines as long as you use a pre-62 crank. The block bolt pattern did not change.
If you want to use a late 440 then find a pre-62 413 crank. You could also use a late 400 block and use your existing 361 crank....
Top of the page Bottom of the page
drosera88
Posted 2018-04-21 10:43 AM (#562024 - in reply to #562015)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361



Elite Veteran

Posts: 1167
10001002525
Location: San Antonio TX
So basically the crankshaft is the only real compatibility issue with the transmission on a newer B/RB 440? And I can source a crank from any pre 62 413 with no issues? What about the motor mounts? Will I need new mounts or will my existing mounts work?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
RUSTORICHES
Posted 2018-04-21 6:00 PM (#562039 - in reply to #561984)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361


Extreme Veteran

Posts: 456
1001001001002525
Location: Alberta
You may want to explore an option not often discussed by most you could 1/2 and 1/2 the torque converter (The old side to the crank of coarse and the the new to fit the your transmission.

Edited by RUSTORICHES 2018-04-21 6:01 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
LostDeere59
Posted 2018-04-21 7:30 PM (#562042 - in reply to #562024)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361



Extreme Veteran

Posts: 332
10010010025
Location: Hilltown, PA

I'm looking at the same situation with my 60 Desoto which has a 361 and the iron Torqueflite. Because of the various compatibility issues surrounding the crankshaft/torque converter, the availability issues with the torque converter including the non-existence of anything other than stock, and just general availability of service/rebuild parts for the iron Torqueflite, I figured updating to a newer, more standard big block and aluminum Torqueflite would be the easiest and most original in appearance and function.

To that end (and by opportunity and happenstance) I acquired a 1964 Dodge 880 which has a 383 and aluminum Torqueflite. The 383 is "standard" n all the meaningful ways, and the trans is as well, except that it still has the pushbutton functionality. The only downside, and an issue you haven't touched on, is the parking brake. On the later trans the parking brake had been moved to the rear axle, which would/will require updating the rear axle/brakes as well (which I intend to do anyhow).

Of course the suggested small block/OD trans has appeal as well, and I've been considering that too.

It's mostly a question of how far you want to go, and where you want to be when you get there.

For the short term I've decided to do an electronic ignition upgrade, drop on a 4 bbl manifold and new or newish aftermarket carb, and go over the stock trans (linkage, bands, etc) to give me some dependability and driveablity improvements.


Gregg

Top of the page Bottom of the page
wayfarer
Posted 2018-04-23 10:00 AM (#562112 - in reply to #562024)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361



Elite Veteran

Posts: 777
500100100252525
Location: Central Ory-Gun
drosera88 - 2018-04-21 7:43 AM

So basically the crankshaft is the only real compatibility issue with the transmission on a newer B/RB 440? And I can source a crank from any pre 62 413 with no issues? What about the motor mounts? Will I need new mounts or will my existing mounts work?


...blocks are the same, so pretty simple swap, as far as swaps go... Your biggest challenge will be finding an early 413 crank.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
49pair
Posted 2018-04-23 11:19 AM (#562117 - in reply to #561984)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361


Member

Posts: 24

Just a reminder, if you use a different crankshaft, be sure to have the engine rebalanced. The 400 and the later 440 both used cast cranks that were externally balanced.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
57chizler
Posted 2018-04-23 1:13 PM (#562122 - in reply to #562042)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361



Expert

Posts: 3166
200010001002525
Location: NorCal
LostDeere59 - 2018-04-21 4:30 PM

The only downside, and an issue you haven't touched on, is the parking brake. On the later trans the parking brake had been moved to the rear axle


The one exception being the '62 full-sized car 727 which retained the tail-mounted parking brake. Ideal for swapping newer motors into the PB shifted FL's.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
57burb
Posted 2018-04-24 10:55 AM (#562186 - in reply to #561984)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361



Expert

Posts: 3542
2000100050025
Location: DFW, TX
This is why people build Chevrolets!!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Powerflite
Posted 2018-04-26 4:55 PM (#562335 - in reply to #561984)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5355
50001001001002525
Location: So. California
True. The fact that a chevy trans from a straight 6 will bolt up to a big block or small block from '55-up had a big influence on their popularity during the '70's and 80's. Make the swaps easy and people will gravitate to them. I don't think most engineers & managers understood that phenomenon well - and still don't for the most part.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
drosera88
Posted 2018-04-27 5:39 PM (#562379 - in reply to #562042)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361



Elite Veteran

Posts: 1167
10001002525
Location: San Antonio TX

LostDeere59 - 2018-04-21 6:30 PM The only downside, and an issue you haven't touched on, is the parking brake. On the later trans the parking brake had been moved to the rear axle, which would/will require updating the rear axle/brakes as well (which I intend to do anyhow).

I actually have a 66 Plymouth rear end in my Windsor, so the old Plymouth brakes are in place (and they work), but not connected. After reading everything people posted, I'm strongly considering just buying a complete motor and tranny combo to simplify things. I'd have to redo the drive shaft though, and I'd also have to make sure that the tranny I use can be made to work with the push buttons. 

Top of the page Bottom of the page
FINS!
Posted 2018-04-27 7:35 PM (#562384 - in reply to #562042)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361


Elite Veteran

Posts: 739
50010010025
Sorry to jump in guys but are any of you going to be selling your old 361s?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
drosera88
Posted 2018-04-27 9:24 PM (#562391 - in reply to #562384)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361



Elite Veteran

Posts: 1167
10001002525
Location: San Antonio TX

FINS! - 2018-04-27 6:35 PM Sorry to jump in guys but are any of you going to be selling your old 361s?

I will when it is out, but I'm thinking that the engine swap is still at least 6 months to a year out. I want to finish the interior, floors, and rockers first. 

Top of the page Bottom of the page
57chizler
Posted 2018-04-28 1:05 PM (#562426 - in reply to #562335)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361



Expert

Posts: 3166
200010001002525
Location: NorCal
Powerflite - 2018-04-26 1:55 PM

True. The fact that a chevy trans from a straight 6 will bolt up to a big block or small block from '55-up had a big influence on their popularity during the '70's and 80's. Make the swaps easy and people will gravitate to them.


I prefer the word sheep rather than "people".
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Mopar1
Posted 2018-04-29 12:25 PM (#562473 - in reply to #562426)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361



Expert

Posts: 2721
2000500100100
Location: N.W. Fla.
57chizler - 2018-04-28 12:05 PM

Powerflite - 2018-04-26 1:55 PM

True. The fact that a chevy trans from a straight 6 will bolt up to a big block or small block from '55-up had a big influence on their popularity during the '70's and 80's. Make the swaps easy and people will gravitate to them.


I prefer the word sheep rather than "people".
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Pops62
Posted 2018-07-15 5:16 PM (#566645 - in reply to #561984)
Subject: RE: Advice on swapping out my 361


Member

Posts: 7

I am working through putting a 68 440 into my 62 dodge 880
I spoke with 727 specialist this week and they told me they could change the front pump and shaft and rebuild the 62 with later model parts and make it compatible to the newer engine and keep it push button
This would give you more converter options.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
BigBlockMopar
Posted 2018-07-15 5:26 PM (#566647 - in reply to #561984)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361



Expert

Posts: 3527
2000100050025
Location: Netherlands
The '62 transmission is already compatible.
All newer-style bigblocks will accept any 62-and newer convertors.

It are the pre-62 transmissions (The cast iron ones) that are the incompatible ones, where the crankshaft is bolted directly to the convertor at the crank flange.

The 'only' issue with early and late convertors is the spline count, which changed in '65 I recall.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Stroller
Posted 2018-12-06 12:25 PM (#574779 - in reply to #561984)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361


Veteran

Posts: 190
100252525
I know this is a very old thread. My '60 fury has a 383 now, but also a manual trans and the rear end matching the trans both are from '68. This takes a lot of work to do. I had a '71 Satalite with a 440 and the motor mounts from that engine would not have worked in my '60. Also ain't no way I would stick a B/RB engine in an old car without changing the rear end so it can handle it.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
GaryS
Posted 2018-12-06 12:47 PM (#574782 - in reply to #561984)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361



Elite Veteran

Posts: 1049
100025
Location: Ponder, TX
Just my two cents...and I know that's all it's worth. Cubic inches are the certainly the way to high performance, but since the 361 shares so many parts with high performance 383's, you can make that little B engine fly for far less money than going to a later RB. Ditto for earlier 383 B's. Stock 452 heads from a 400 with upgraded exhaust and carb matched to a cam, give a huge increase in power, and it's basically a bolt-in with no crank or driveline changes needed. Nice feature is that you can make it look very close to stock.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
ABloch
Posted 2018-12-06 7:59 PM (#574808 - in reply to #561984)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361



Elite Veteran

Posts: 1090
1000252525
Location: Pacific Northwest
I like Gary's idea. In addition you could bore the cylinders out, if the block is alright and plug 383 pistons in there as well. 4bbl and dual exhaust. Done!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Handygun
Posted 2018-12-09 6:54 PM (#574948 - in reply to #561984)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361


Elite Veteran

Posts: 1100
1000100
Location: STL, MO
Will the 2.08/1.74 valves clear the 361's bore?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
sonaramic300
Posted 2018-12-14 1:14 AM (#575214 - in reply to #561984)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361


Member

Posts: 47
25
The converter splines changed in 1967. So 1962-1966 is the same converter splines and smaller diameter.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
58coupe
Posted 2018-12-14 11:15 AM (#575222 - in reply to #561984)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361



Expert

Posts: 1370
10001001001002525
Location: Alaska
The exhaust valve is the only one you have to worry about as the intake is only open a small amount when the piston is TDC and the 361 was built with 2.08 valves.
The max wedges were built with 1.88 ex. and had a small notch at the top of cylinder. Never tried this so you should just try it and measure.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Ray Bell
Posted 2018-12-21 8:11 AM (#575585 - in reply to #561984)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361



Expert

Posts: 2392
2000100100100252525
Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia
Surely if you have to notch the cylinder then part of the valve opening will be shrouded?

I agree with the suggestion to simply rebuild the 361 with 383 pistons... so many problems you'll avoid.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
mstrug
Posted 2018-12-21 9:25 AM (#575587 - in reply to #561984)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5742
500050010010025
Location: Newark, Texas (Fort Worth)
Ray, it just so happens that our own Joey C (Christines revenge here) built a 350 Golden Commando that made an impressive 340 HP with twin fours, small aftermarket camshaft, and GOOD closed chamber stock 350 heads that were masaged with 440 Valves and ported lightly. (2.080X INT. 1.740 EX.), and headers on the dyno.

I would think with a GOOD set of Mildy ported heads, 10.0:1 compression pistons, GOOD machine work, and 440 valves, and mild aftermarket camshaft with somewhere in the 225 @ .050 Duration, with something like .500 Lift, you could hit 350 HP easily with a 361; even with a single 650 CFM four BBL carb.
I'd be interested to see if it could be done relatively on the cheaper side as well.

Here's my reciepe if interested.....

Stock block 361, Bored .030 With Deck plate.
Align bored to square up crank mains.
Recondition, Stock connecting rods.
Forged/cast your choice, Pistons with about .013 "In the hole"(Below the deck surface at TDC), with Eyebrow valve reliefs if possible.
Good ".010/.010" crank forged steel stock.
Set of Closed chamber "915" 6-bolt valve cover heads, with 2.080 In. and 1.740 Ex. valves, ported lightly - (High flow Stainless, like Manley).
GOOD intake like stock twin four, or RPM Eddy aftermarket single four.
"HP" Manifolds from a leter B-body like a GTX- (Repro); Provided they fit well...
Camshaft with above mentioned specs; and valve springs to match.
Electronic ignition distributor, with GOOD ignition like MSD, or your choice.
Set timing as close to around 36-38 degrees and run Premium fuel.

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=46331
Top of the page Bottom of the page
normsclassicradio
Posted 2018-12-21 11:17 AM (#575592 - in reply to #561984)
Subject: RE: Advice on swapping out my 361



Veteran

Posts: 111
100
Location: Kalispell, MT USA
I am considering these alternatives for my Dodge. Stock 361 2bbl now. I was thinking 361 or 383 with 400 heads to run unleaded fuel, for a daily driver. Are any 400 heads better than others?
Norm
Top of the page Bottom of the page
58coupe
Posted 2018-12-21 12:00 PM (#575593 - in reply to #561984)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361



Expert

Posts: 1370
10001001001002525
Location: Alaska
You can buy aluminum closed chamber heads from 440 Source for less than $1000 a pair. These come with 2.08/1.74 valves and flow better than stock and you can run 10 to 1 compression and use pump gas. Unless you do most of the work yourself (larger valves /porting) it will cost more to work the stock heads.
I am going to use these. They can also be painted to appear stock if you desire.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Powerflite
Posted 2018-12-21 4:53 PM (#575602 - in reply to #561984)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5355
50001001001002525
Location: So. California
I agree completely, but how do you get the stock valve covers to work with them? That is a priority for me.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
58coupe
Posted 2018-12-22 12:21 PM (#575645 - in reply to #561984)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361



Expert

Posts: 1370
10001001001002525
Location: Alaska
Nathan, how many people besides us on this site would even know the difference?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Powerflite
Posted 2018-12-23 12:13 PM (#575685 - in reply to #561984)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5355
50001001001002525
Location: So. California
Not many, true; but I notice it first time I open the hood. There aren't many visual clues that the big block wedge motor is 1950's, but the valve covers give it a unique look that I like. I don't want to open the hood to a super bee motor.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-12-23 2:13 PM (#575696 - in reply to #575685)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5836
500050010010010025
Location: northern germany
Powerflite - 2018-12-23 12:13 PM

Not many, true; but I notice it first time I open the hood. There aren't many visual clues that the big block wedge motor is 1950's, but the valve covers give it a unique look that I like. I don't want to open the hood to a super bee motor.


I agree, but most people can't "muscle-car" their fl enough

As the aluminum heads accept the 6 bolt VC's one would only need to grind away the edges to use the 4 bolt VC's? Unfortunately there are no Mopar aluminum heads with a heat-crossover. Only Chevy people (of course) have the benefit of aftermarket aluminum heads with heat-crossover.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
57chizler
Posted 2019-01-23 12:21 PM (#577274 - in reply to #575593)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361



Expert

Posts: 3166
200010001002525
Location: NorCal
58coupe - 2018-12-21 9:00 AM

You can buy aluminum closed chamber heads from 440 Source for less than $1000 a pair. These come with 2.08/1.74 valves .


Actually 2.14" and 1.81" valves.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Stroller
Posted 2019-02-03 9:50 AM (#577752 - in reply to #561984)
Subject: Re: Advice on swapping out my 361


Veteran

Posts: 190
100252525
HM interesting the 915 heads were mentioned and good luck going that option if you ever try. Them heads were only produced, from what I found, for 6 months. Thing is most people that re-build with them did not know how to take advantage of the closed chamber option. I have a set of a '67 440 and I am arguing with my self as to which engine, purpose, I intend to put them on. Something I was told alot of racers do is take a 400 block and use a 440 crank, easy way to increase to increase bore and stroke. As to the valves the owner of the machine shop I use says, and I tend to agree, the larger valves are not really needed of the majority of re-builds simply because the engine will never see 6,000 rpm or held at super high rpm's for an extended regular use, racing. But if it's your money do what you want to do. Stick a radicall fast monster power plant in, back it up and go through the Mickey D's drive through.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page]
Jump to forum :
Search this forum
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread



(Delete all cookies set by this site)