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What torque..
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plymouth
Posted 2018-07-20 10:55 PM (#566917)
Subject: What torque..



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Do you guys use to adjust wheel bearings after you do a drum to disc conversion? Do you still follow our shop manual or do you go by the vehicle that the rotors are meant for? Thanks
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57chizler
Posted 2018-07-21 2:24 PM (#566956 - in reply to #566917)
Subject: RE: What torque..



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The bearings and rotor are specific to a certain car, use the procedure recommended for that car.
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1960fury
Posted 2018-07-22 9:41 AM (#567003 - in reply to #566917)
Subject: Re: What torque..



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Do not use the torque-method. With warm bearings/hub adjust the bearings until free-play JUST disapears. You can't find that with the torque-method.
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57chizler
Posted 2018-07-22 4:48 PM (#567021 - in reply to #567003)
Subject: Re: What torque..



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Not everybody agrees on this.

I believe most manufacturers specify inch pounds of preload to preclude any end play that might occur after the bearings seat in with use and wear. While a slight amount of rotor end play is acceptable with disc brakes, it's better to have a slight preload so the rotor's spin axis is consistent.
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1960fury
Posted 2018-07-22 5:33 PM (#567025 - in reply to #566917)
Subject: Re: What torque..



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Maybe, but that's how I doing this since day one and I didn't advise free-play. Anyway I'm proud that my car still has the OE front wheel bearings, in use since september of 1959, in like new condition, serviced by me in the past 30 years.

Edited by 1960fury 2018-07-22 5:38 PM
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60 dart
Posted 2018-07-22 6:52 PM (#567026 - in reply to #566917)
Subject: Re: What torque..



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if you were standing in the middle of a field , sun blazing hot , someone would say it's overcast and cool . i've always since 1967 tightened till wrench resistance , turn the wheel to seat bearings , loosen free ,
take back down to wrench resistance , back off on crown nut one hole , replace cotter key and dust cap . never ever lost a wheel bearing -----------------------------------------later
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1960fury
Posted 2018-07-22 7:39 PM (#567032 - in reply to #567026)
Subject: Re: What torque..



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60 dart - 2018-07-22 6:52 PM

if you were standing in the middle of a field , sun blazing hot , someone would say it's overcast and cool . i've always since 1967 tightened till wrench resistance , turn the wheel to seat bearings , loosen free ,
take back down to wrench resistance , back off on crown nut one hole , replace cotter key and dust cap . never ever lost a wheel bearing -----------------------------------------later


How long do you keep your cars? I've driven mine almost daily for 30 years and most of the 330+K miles on the odometer were done by me. And I mean DRIVING, with speeds way above 140 mph on the Autobahn and high speed cornering. I'd bet my last penny no one ever road raced a FL car more enthusiastically (faster and harder) than me
Of course FSM recommendations always work in the average driver. But there ist always a good way and the perfect way to do things. That is why my car never sees a garage and that is why it is still running like new, or better, with a never rebuild 330+k miles engine.

Edited by 1960fury 2018-07-22 7:48 PM
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mikes2nd
Posted 2018-07-22 9:50 PM (#567035 - in reply to #567003)
Subject: Re: What torque..


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1960fury - 2018-07-22 9:41 AM Do not use the torque-method. With warm bearings/hub adjust the bearings until free-play JUST disapears. You can't find that with the torque-method.

 

yeah what he said... ive never heard of anyone trying to apply torque to a hub bearing...

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49pair
Posted 2018-07-23 9:17 AM (#567061 - in reply to #566917)
Subject: Re: What torque..


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Here's another comment that will stir the pot, you should always be rotating the hub/wheel assy. while you tighten the bearings to position the tapered roller bearings properly. You will find this in many FSMs and also works for aircraft that land at 140 mph.
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wizard
Posted 2018-07-23 9:38 AM (#567063 - in reply to #566917)
Subject: Re: What torque..



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No stir in the pot, just common sense.


The purpose of applying torque to the tapered roller bearings while rotating the hub is for to be sure that the bearing have full contact between race and the rollers. Thereafter the adjusting nut should be backed off according to the specifications.

There are other methods as well, like using an indicator clock, but they are more complicated.
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57chizler
Posted 2018-07-23 1:31 PM (#567074 - in reply to #567063)
Subject: Re: What torque..



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As I stated, not everybody agrees so there really is no right or wrong way....just a personal preference.

The spindle (knuckle) shaft is just a hunk of iron, the wheel bearings don't know what car the shaft is on, so I think it's wise to use the rotor manufacturer's adjustment procedure.
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1960fury
Posted 2018-07-23 2:28 PM (#567077 - in reply to #567063)
Subject: Re: What torque..



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wizard - 2018-07-23 9:38 AM

No stir in the pot, just common sense.


The purpose of applying torque to the tapered roller bearings while rotating the hub is for to be sure that the bearing have full contact between race and the rollers. Thereafter the adjusting nut should be backed off according to the specifications.




"Common sense".....

Yes, and this way it is absolutely impossible to get a PRECISE adjustment, depending on torque wrench and grease you use. The FSM gives not even specifications if it is a dry or a wet torque rating. Usually torque specs are dry, but I'd bet in this case, with 99.9% of people who use this method, the threads are not dry (clean w/o grease).
And I wonder how many people use a precision, quality dial torque wrench for this!

So in reality there is at least (guessed) a 30% variation when using this method, while there is only one correct spot for this critical adjustment, that needs to be correctly determined.

Of course the bearings need to be seated first.

Edited by 1960fury 2018-07-23 2:33 PM
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wizard
Posted 2018-07-23 4:11 PM (#567086 - in reply to #566917)
Subject: Re: What torque..



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Heres some intresting reading on the subject https://www.timken.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/5556_Bearing-Setti...

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1960fury
Posted 2018-07-23 5:36 PM (#567091 - in reply to #567086)
Subject: Re: What torque..



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wizard - 2018-07-23 4:11 PM

Heres some intresting reading on the subject https://www.timken.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/5556_Bearing-Setti...



Thanks Wizard, quote from the article:

"Generally, the ideal operating bearing setting is near- zero to
maximize bearing life. Most bearings are set with a cold setting
of end play at assembly. This comes as close as possible to the
desired near-zero setting when the unit reaches its stabilized
operating temperature.
Some applications are set with cold preload to increase
rigidity and axial positioning of highly stressed parts that
would otherwise be dramatically affected by excessive
deflection and misalignment.
Excessive operating preload must be avoided as bearing
fatigue life can be drastically reduced. Also, excessive
operating preload can lead to lubrication problems and
premature bearing damage due to high heat generation.
Load zone is a physical measure of the raceway loaded arc
and is a direct indication of how many rollers share the applied
load. For a single-row tapered roller bearing, maximum life
is obtained with a load zone of approximately 225 degrees.
Figure 2 shows the graphical representation of bearing L10 life
versus operating bearing setting for a typical (overhung) pinion
bearing mounting.
The ideal operating setting that will maximize bearing system
life is generally near-zero to slight preload"


I did not read that before, I just used common sense and this is about what I said in my initial post. Near zero setting. You simply can't adjust bearings precisely with a torque wrench, the reasons why that is impossible I mentioned in my previous post. My like new 330+K mile bearings seem to agree.



Edited by 1960fury 2018-07-23 5:43 PM
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1960fury
Posted 2018-07-23 5:51 PM (#567093 - in reply to #566917)
Subject: Re: What torque..



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I have a calibrated quality snap-on dial torque wrench, just for the fun of it I will use the wrench-method on one of my FL-cars, when I have the time. Will let you know if I get the desired near zero setting. Chances are slim, but let's see.

Edited by 1960fury 2018-07-23 5:51 PM
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wizard
Posted 2018-07-24 2:25 AM (#567115 - in reply to #566917)
Subject: Re: What torque..



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The torque method will always work and so will the full manual monkey wrench method as well, but this requires "fingerspitzengefühl".
That said, your method will work as well Sid, BUT - you need to eludicate this some more for the readers of which some might be laymen;


- specify the initial setting of the bearings?
- specify the neccesary distance/speed?
- specify warm?
- specify the time span within the bearings must be adjusted?


For many here, this aint even questions and we could figure out this easily, but then for others, there's just too many questions open.


The torque method is easy to understand and everyone can learn it fast. The problem with the torque method as well as with the warm next to 0 adjustment is that the spindle only have one cotter in hole - with 2 holes, 90 degrees apart there will be better adjustment possibilities.


Which leads me to think about the early (perhaps also now?) BMW lock nuts with an umbrako screw - that is a very good solution.
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1960fury
Posted 2018-07-24 8:07 AM (#567123 - in reply to #567115)
Subject: Re: What torque..



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wizard - 2018-07-24 2:25 AM

The torque method will always work







Specifie "work". For the above mentioned reasons (30% variation with torque method) it simply can't work properly. Will the wheels fall off? No. That doesn't mean it is the proper method to adjust wheel bearings.
The initial setting is of no importance as this is not about seating the races. This is done when they are installed, it can't be done with the adjusting nut. When you tighten the adjusting nut a reasonable amount, while rotating the wheel, until there is no free-play and slightly beyond, it will be okay, then aim for a near zero setting.

Just because someone used the torque method and drove the car to a couple of times to car shows in the past years without failure, it doesn't mean it is the right way.
So just follow my freaking time-proven method and you will be fine, it is in compliance with the Timken recommendations too.

wizard - 2018-07-24 2:25 AM
The torque method is easy to understand and everyone can learn it fast. The problem with the torque method as well as with the warm next to 0 adjustment is that the spindle only have one cotter in hole - with 2 holes, 90 degrees apart there will be better adjustment possibilities.



Actuall it is just one hole With all due respect Wizard, you are not going to tell us that your only choices when adjusting wheel bearings are 90° apart? Ever heard of the nut lock? Have you actually ever adjusted a wheel bearing? I'm sorry but I have to remember people here now about you other recommendations, like 0° toe-in for these cars or 88 foot-pounds (35+% overtorquing) for factory wheels.

And I checked the FSM. The 60 Desoto Manual says tighten to 90 inch-pounds and the 60 Plymouth FSM says tighten to 180 inch-pounds, and the Desoto FSM doesn't even give clear recommendations on back off. The 60 Plymouth and Desotos use the same wheel bearings. Nothing more needs to be said about the accuracy of the"torque-method".



Edited by 1960fury 2018-07-24 8:54 AM
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wizard
Posted 2018-07-24 9:15 AM (#567125 - in reply to #566917)
Subject: Re: What torque..



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Ok, so you don't have appropriate answers, pity.

The torque isn't that important (use 180 inch pounds) and the fsm unfortunately have these faults (in one chapter there can be one value and in another chapter a totally different value).

I have worked with cars and machinery since 50 years now and during that time I did change and adjust some bearings of course.
I usually clean and regrease my front wheel bearings once a year.

Yes, Sid, theres only one hole for a cotter pin in the spindle, that's my point if you read more carefully. With two holes you get a better adjusting possibility, but the 90 degrees recommended by Timken doesn't work for the nut lock in our cars as they have 90 degrees pitch already. If drillig a second hole, this hole should be in a position slightly less than 90 degrees. For crown nuts with uneven pitch the 90 degrees is fine.

The 0 toe in can be used if all front end components are in good shape. Hypothetically 3/8" Toe in might very well be 0 when the car is driven, especially with worn front end components.












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1960fury
Posted 2018-07-24 9:28 AM (#567126 - in reply to #567125)
Subject: Re: What torque..



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wizard - 2018-07-24 9:15 AM

Ok, so you don't have appropriate answers, pity.

The torque isn't that important (use 180 inch pounds) and the fsm unfortunately have these faults (in one chapter there can be one value and in another chapter a totally different value).

I have worked with cars and machinery since 50 years now and during that time I did change and adjust some bearings of course.
I usually clean and regrease my front wheel bearings once a year.

Yes, Sid, theres only one hole for a cotter pin in the spindle, that's my point if you read more carefully. With two holes you get a better adjusting possibility, but the 90 degrees recommended by Timken doesn't work for the nut lock in our cars as they have 90 degrees pitch already. If drillig a second hole, this hole should be in a position slightly less than 90 degrees. For crown nuts with uneven pitch the 90 degrees is fine.

The 0 toe in can be used if all front end components are in good shape. Hypothetically 3/8" Toe in might very well be 0 when the car is driven, especially with worn front end components.



No. 0° setting is like toe out. With 0° toe-in/out the car loses it directional stability. It is important to have some toe-in. And there is always some play, when you brake the 0° toe setting can or will change to toe-out, resulting in pulling to either side.

I reread your other other statement a couple of times. It does make no sense whatsoever. With the nut lock you can precisely adjust the bearings. But wait a second, you believe in the torque-method, that could hardly be more inacurate (30+% variation), but you want another hole in the spindle for fine-tuning the bearings? Are you serious?
And even if the nut lock wouldn't be enough, only a complete idiot would drill another hole in the spindle, the nut lock can be changed easily in a couple of minutes to adjust to any setting you need.

Edited by 1960fury 2018-07-24 10:15 AM
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wizard
Posted 2018-07-24 9:38 AM (#567127 - in reply to #566917)
Subject: Re: What torque..



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Yes Sid, I actually beleive in the fsm (apart for obvious printing errors) I have roundabout 30 different fsm from different car manufactors and they all recommend the torque method.

Remember that your 30+% variation is a guesstimate, not a fact.

Yes, of course I'm serious, I would like to have finer adjustment, especially in the GM cars where it's sometimes necessary to file down the washer for not to have too large free-play.

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1960fury
Posted 2018-07-24 10:13 AM (#567132 - in reply to #567127)
Subject: Re: What torque..



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wizard - 2018-07-24 9:38 AM



Remember that your 30+% variation is a guesstimate, not a fact.




No, not a "quesstimate". There is a 20-25% or even more variation between wet and dry torque ratings and cheap or old/not calibrated torque wrenches are not rarely off the same amount. So this is a fact that there can be a 30+% variation when using this method, and that is a conservative statement. All you need is common sense to come to this conclusion, Wizard.

Even if it was only 5% it wouldn't work for me for such a critical adjustment. Or are you really saying that all torque-wrenches are within 0.1% accurate and all people are torquing bearing nuts with completely dry and clean threads? And even the FSM gives different torque specs.
Again, it is absolutely impossible to make an accurate adjustment with a torque wrench. Common sense, Wizard, common sense.
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57chizler
Posted 2018-07-24 11:18 AM (#567134 - in reply to #567132)
Subject: Re: What torque..



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When this thread finally dies I'll stand by my statement..."there really is no right or wrong way....just a personal preference". and individual anecdotal experience is no proof that you're doing it the "right way".

Edited by 57chizler 2018-07-24 11:20 AM
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