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Sonoramic question
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Apollo 61
Posted 2018-09-11 12:36 AM (#569937)
Subject: Sonoramic question



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Hello,I'm new to the site. I have a question about the sonoramic option. How can you tell if a car is a original sonoramic car or just added later? Was it a dealer installed option? Is it a code on the fender tag? Is it on the vin number?
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ttotired
Posted 2018-09-11 1:01 AM (#569938 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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Its a factory option, Best way to be sure would be the build sheet.

I believe there is a book by a bloke called Darrel Davies (I think the names right) that lists the vins of all known sono cars or might be D500 cars.

There are build differences in the sono cars (cut outs in the inner fenders to access spark plugs ect)

Theres a couple of blokes on here that know a lot more about them than me and I am sure they will chime in

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w.weiland
Posted 2018-09-11 5:59 AM (#569948 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question


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Darrel Davis is the guy. Also from what I have learned is the cutouts on inner fenders was not always so. But on majority yes. You got to find/get his book. Or someone who has one check the VIN
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Apollo 61
Posted 2018-09-11 10:14 AM (#569950 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: RE: Sonoramic question



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The cut outs are they a removeable screw on panel to gain access to the plugs or a special clearanced stamped inner fender panel. Does anyone have a pic of the cutout area?
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tailfins
Posted 2018-09-11 11:13 AM (#569955 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question


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the VIN is the only way to be sure.inner fenders can be changed or modified.i believe I paid 100 ea for davis' books on dodge and ply crossram vin #s
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finsruskw
Posted 2018-09-11 11:40 AM (#569958 - in reply to #569955)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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I doubt if the VIN# would shed any light on option packages.
I would think you need to check the build sheet that coincides for that VIN# and/or decipher the data tag.

Speaking from my experience with the Chrysler 300's
For instance, The rams were optional on 1964 300K's as were a host of other items.
By looking at the VIN#, you can only verify that it is indeed a 300K, by the 1st 4 digits.
There is no info about options as a part of the VIN#
On my Polar Blue 300F, there is no way to verify the "special order" paint color code 999, other than looking at the data tag or build sheet.
Plus there was another "special order" sheet under the back seat in the case of my F referring only the color.

IDK, Maybe the Plymouths had a special number sequence code as part of VIN#??
Was the Son-O-ramic a distinct model line such as the Savoy, Belvedere, Fury, Sport Fury etc??
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Lancer Mike
Posted 2018-09-11 2:47 PM (#569964 - in reply to #569958)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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I haven't read it and I don't own it, but I think Davis' book lists each VIN corresponding to a factory Sono.   I think he did it by looking through every build card at the Chrysler archives!

No wonder it costs so much!  When you factor in his time, he probably just scratches the surface of cost recovery.

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Sonoramic60
Posted 2018-09-11 6:18 PM (#569976 - in reply to #569964)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question


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Lads --
Darrell Davis is indeed the premier authority on the 1960-1961 ram-inducted Plymouths, Darts, Dodges, and DeSotos. He was not only an executive with Chrysler before he retired (I think he got the last Plymmer to come off the line), but was very active in the Chrysler Historical Society. Plus, being an old fudd like me, he had not one, but two ram '60s, one a 361 and the other a 383. His books give all sort of info on not only options but by production plant. There are also other interesting tidbits in them -- like how modify the long rams internally to get short ram performance (I wish I had that info back in 1960-64).
My Big-Tailed Beast is one of those ringers that give other "experts" fits. It is an early car and may well have been, a "mule" or factory test vehicle from the St. Louis plant. It has several anomalies such as no fender well cutouts or removable panels and its carb linkage is the early ball-and-socket type rather than the more familiar slotted rod. Furthermore, it doesn't have the windshield washer bag for the ram cars, but rather the Golden Commando job; the latter is deeper with closer located mounting hooks while the former is longer and narrower to accommodate the driver's side ram tube and carb.
Darrell and I have discussed this and we kinda think since the car was shipped from St. Louis on 10-25-59, but not sold by Bill Goodro's Denver Chyrsler-Plymouth until 02-23-60, it may well have served as a factory rep's car during that time, especially if it were a mule.
Of course the Chrysler Historical Society was once able to provide build records, but I don't know if they still do at this time. I was able to get the BTB's back in 2001 or so, because after I saw that early carb linkage I thought I had been had by some shade tree mechanic. It was reassuring to get the build record, Darrell's book, and even a tech letter that recommended that dealers replace the ball-and-socket carb linkage with the later slotted type.
Joe Godec
'57 Chrysler 300C, '60 Fury SonoRamic, '65 Fuelie Vette, '65 Sport Fury 426-S/4-speed
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57chizler
Posted 2018-09-12 3:23 PM (#570006 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: RE: Sonoramic question



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Unlike the later Max Wedge/Race Hemi cars, there were no changes to the body/frame made for the long ram manifolds...or were there?
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CustomRoyal
Posted 2018-09-12 4:59 PM (#570010 - in reply to #570006)
Subject: RE: Sonoramic question


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My two original cars have 12" brakes.
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CaprockClassics
Posted 2018-09-12 5:23 PM (#570012 - in reply to #570010)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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Problem nowadays is that Chrysler historical requires proof of ownership before they'll send you an IBM card or build sheet. So you can't check out cars you're interested in until you own it and send them a title with your name on it. Bummer because most sellers won't offer to run the documents down for you
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longram60
Posted 2018-09-12 5:32 PM (#570015 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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Unfortunately the '60 and '61 Sonoramic guides are sold out. Here is the link to ordering them, you could inquire if a second printing is planned.

http://racehemi.maxwedge.com/dld/
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Sonoramic60
Posted 2018-09-12 10:29 PM (#570031 - in reply to #570015)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question


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Lads --
My SonoRamic Commando equipped '60 Fury has the normal 11" X 2" front and rear brakes specified for all full-sized models (the 118" wheelbase "Savoy, Belvedere, and Fury) except for the 2 1/2" front brakes of the 122" wheelbase station wagons. These are the only ones specified in the service manual. Of course, my car is an early production model, so changes may have come about later in the model year.
Joe
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Sonoramic60
Posted 2018-09-13 12:16 PM (#570048 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: RE: Sonoramic question


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Fins --
"SonoRamic" regerred to the ram-inducted engine which could be had in all the Plymouth line: Savoys, Belvederes, Furys, and Suburbans in 2-dr posts, 4-dr SEE-dans, 2-dr station wagons, 4-dr wagons, 2-dr H/Ts, 4-dr H/Ts, and verts. As best can be determined, some 1577 came off the assembly line. Since those were the days when some aspects of performance were emphasized, ram cars were ordinarily identified with a "SonoRamic Commando Power" badge (we called them "scare emblems" back then) on each front fender, just ahead of the door. Most cars had them, but some guys preferred their cars not be so marked. I don't know for sure, but the badges may have been shipped in the trunk and attached at the dealer using the Mark I eyeball as a guide. Those on my car are at fractionally different heights from the ground and distances from the front door. Incidently, SonoRamic is the way it's spelled on my badges. In 1961, there was just one badge and it was placed on the right rear part of the trunk lid.
57 --
The only body change for Plymouth ram cars were the aforementioned badges and fender well cut-outs and panels. Dodge made no outside differentiation of its ram cars -- any high performance engine, ram-inducted or single 4-barrel, was a D-500.
Joe
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Apollo 61
Posted 2018-09-15 12:30 AM (#570127 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: RE: Sonoramic question



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Here is a pic of the fender well. I take it that this is not a cut out inner fender? But that is still possible to be a sono car without cut outs?



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60crossram
Posted 2018-09-15 12:50 AM (#570128 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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Probably not. If you give me your vin I can look in my Darrel Davis book for you. I understand that the trans has factory mods on Ramcharge/Sonoramic cars. Also the dipstick and tube are different, and I was told by Sean Machado that the brake line (not sure which one by the master cylinder) is bent different from the normal 2/4 bbl cars. My car has the 12" brakes also. The DeSoto I have noticed had a couple different paint schemes for the Ramcharge engine. Mine is all red with aluminum tubes. I have seen a few 60 Ram DeSotos that had the engine painted like the Plymouth. I don't know why or if they are painted correctly. Mine is a 28K all original still. The first time I saw this engine/car I had to have it. Ramcharge lives !!!
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Apollo 61
Posted 2018-09-15 1:02 AM (#570130 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: RE: Sonoramic question



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60crossram
Posted 2018-09-15 1:22 AM (#570132 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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Mine is #91 of 93 2 door Adventures built in 60 with only 26k miles. It was built on May 13th. Only one other 2 door Adventurer was built in May. It was the only one painted this color. Radio Delete, Rear defrost, Outside mirror delete, clock. Roy C. Crites of Pocatello Idaho was the lucky new owner in this small town of 40,000 happy farmers. Very cool cars with all their mechanical gadgets, pastel colors, bright fabrics, door panels and beautiful dashes, and the body designs that will never be matched. Desoto lives. I see you just PMd me. I will check it out and get back with you.
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Apollo 61
Posted 2018-09-15 2:54 AM (#570133 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: RE: Sonoramic question



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The brake lines look to be ran in a unusual way?

Edited by Apollo 61 2018-09-15 3:47 AM




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horace
Posted 2018-09-15 1:06 PM (#570147 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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There is an AMA specification sheet which would help, bigger brakes, wider wheels. suspension etc. I wonder how many "tribute" "clone" cars have 318 components w/ powerful engines. I have the cut outs, but I also know the car, it's history from new!! My dad was a Dodge dealer @ the time, two different cousins owned it as 1st & 2nd owners . TWENTY SIX miles & an Adventuer WOW!!

Edited by horace 2018-09-15 1:17 PM
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60crossram
Posted 2018-09-15 5:35 PM (#570157 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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Sorry about that Apollo 61. I did go look at my Ram car's brake line. Coming out of the master cylinder it takes a 90deg down about 1/2" out of the MC fitting and it kind of curves/hugs around the PS gear box in a couple bends then shoots straight forward and then down to the factory line connector for all cars. I looked at my parts 60 Adventurer with the normal brake line. It's brake line shoots straight up out of this fitting 4 or 5 inches (which is in line with the upper shock stud) and then it goes basically straight back to the master cylinder. So it is definitely RAM car specific. Quite an interesting looking line.
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Apollo 61
Posted 2018-09-15 7:10 PM (#570162 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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It's is a very unusual car. Loaded with pwr windows,pwr swivel seats,rear def,hi if radio,3spd Manuel floor shift, and weird part is that it has max wedge cast iron headers with cut out heater box clearances??? Very rusty though..



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Apollo 61
Posted 2018-09-15 7:23 PM (#570163 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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I was reading somewhere that they were only available in automatics,but a few sonos were known to exist in 3 spd Manuel. Is this factory mopar 3 spd shifter? What is also unusual is that it as a stromberg 2 blb on it. Starting making me think a car this loaded would not have a 2blb?

Edited by Apollo 61 2018-09-15 7:25 PM
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ABloch
Posted 2018-09-15 8:38 PM (#570165 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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Hurst yo-yo shifter cut into the floor of a car that did not come factory equipped with a floor shift is definitely a custom job.
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60crossram
Posted 2018-09-15 9:20 PM (#570167 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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Do you still have trans push buttons on the dash ? Or the Auto trans delete plate. It would look factory, but not have any holes in it for the Rev, Drive, Neutral, Two, One shift buttons. ?
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60crossram
Posted 2018-09-15 9:26 PM (#570168 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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Those headers are 413 max-wedge from 63 & 64 I believe. (Rare pieces). That steering wheel is also the hard to find square Aero wheel. Swivels are cool. Does it have auto swivel ? or power auto swivel would be cool too ! And maybe the ash tray option in the rear bottom middle of the front seat. Could be a very cool car. How are the rockers ? Are the spot welded seams bulging ? Check to see if it has Auto swivel.
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60crossram
Posted 2018-09-15 9:37 PM (#570169 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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Have you checked the stamping pad on the engine to see what it is ? You may also have to check the dates cast into the side of the block. The top pad is on the RF of the engine below the distributor. It will have 10 or so numbers/letters stamped on it. Scrape it off.
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Apollo 61
Posted 2018-09-15 10:48 PM (#570172 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: RE: Sonoramic question



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It has the auto trans delete plate. There is a power switch on the seat. It also has hi fi radio . Does that mean it was a record player car?



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60crossram
Posted 2018-09-15 11:04 PM (#570173 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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Record player is a big chrome box that is below the dash above the hump that the records go in. I don't see it in the picture. The rubber pad and pattern with the dots look correct for 61. You are just going to have to inspect everything to see if the manual trans asy is factory or if its been made. You can look at things and tell if its been dicked with and modified/customized on the install of if everything looks factory. Does the seat have auto swivel ? (cables that run under the carpet from the middle of the seat on each side out to the door hinges. You can see 2 verticle torsion springs between each door hinge and a cable that runs to it.
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ABloch
Posted 2018-09-16 12:25 AM (#570174 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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Did Miguel have another '61 that he didn't tell me about?
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ttotired
Posted 2018-09-16 1:52 AM (#570177 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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Steering wheel is a 61 not 60 wheel and the buttons on the radio are bone and rectangular not black and round, which is also 61

Wrong engine, shifter looks aftermarket (not real sure there) Hard to see, but I think the speedo pod is also 61

Depending on its build date, it may have been one of the last ones built and the gave it a 61 interior but I would say this car is a "hot rod" that was built a long time ago

It would be easier to see if there were not so detailed pictures

If nothing else, it would be cool to get to use the stuff out of it to remake another period hot rod

I would not think this was a sono car, but its numbers that will say for certain

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Sonoramic60
Posted 2018-09-16 2:56 PM (#570199 - in reply to #570177)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question


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Lads --
It sure does look like it's got a '61 dash and steering wheel, or at least neither are like the ones in my '60. I'd be willing to bet that the shift lever is a Hurst as the stock "3-on-the-tree" was absolutely lousy for speed shifting on the drag strip and, except for the knob, it has a solid curved lever resembling the Hurst unit on my '65 Sport Fury. Incidently, two Belvie 2dr H/Ts and two Fury 4-dr (repeat, FOUR-door) H/Ts came with ram 361s and the T-85 manual, but 236 ram 383s had the manual and they were to be found in all models, even station wagons.
Those headers do look like the cast-iron jobs of the later Max-Wedges (413 in '62 and 426 in '63-'64), but since the NHRA and the AHRA both allowed exhaust modifications in the stock classes, I can see a guy may have wanted them to enhance performance. But I can't imagine how they may have arrived there as I cannot believe they can fit under the ram tubes. Are the tubes still on the car?
The shifter modification was permitted in the stock classes.
However, the seats are a bit interesting as they appear to be the swivel seats of the '60 model year, but they were not supposed to be offered in 1961.
All in all, an interesting car.
Joe Godec


Edited by Sonoramic60 2018-09-16 3:06 PM
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Apollo 61
Posted 2018-09-16 6:45 PM (#570210 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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It's a 61
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CaprockClassics
Posted 2018-09-16 7:50 PM (#570211 - in reply to #570210)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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The hole for the floor shift is different than the factory 3spd 61-62 cars I've personally looked at, looks far more crude and custom. I would guess that this was an automatic car that someone swapped manual pedals into and cut in a floor shift, or was a column shift car that someone installed an automatic column into and cut in a floor shift. We really need the engine numbers and/or transmission casting numbers to tell you much more.


~Peter
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Sonoramic60
Posted 2018-09-16 9:13 PM (#570215 - in reply to #570211)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question


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Peter --
The standard size '61 Plymouths and the '61 Darts with manuals still had the "3-on-the-tree" so a Hurst conversion is very possible. In fact, that's how Hurst got started in the business -- shortening that god-awful shift linkage that ran down the steering column, out the firewall, and then across to the trans. You may find it of interest that part of the additional cost of the 4-speed on my '65 Sport Fury was because the floor pan literally had to be manually cut out to accommodate the shifter ($483 for 426-S with TorqueFlite, $545 for 426-S with 4-speed). When you get under a factory 4-speed car this by-hand butchery is obvious.
Joe
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Apollo 61
Posted 2018-09-16 11:02 PM (#570222 - in reply to #570215)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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It was getting to late to take pics . I will post a bunch of pics soon. This is how engine comp looked when I got the car. 3 1/2 cans of rat chit. I could not see the motor The interior was up to the top of the shifter in twigs and debris. I have been excavating like a episode of oak island chipping away with garden tools. If the interior is red originally then shouldn't the colum be red? It's black in the pic. It does have the auto delete plate. I know that it's not factory but when was the last time you saw a 8.5 tach.



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horace
Posted 2018-09-17 3:05 PM (#570258 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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A Motor Life mag from 61 ran an interesting road test w/ a 61 a red Dart Seneca back in the day w? the knuckle buster shifter
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Apollo 61
Posted 2018-09-18 1:42 PM (#570310 - in reply to #570258)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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I just spoke with Darrel Davis and and gave him the serial number. He said he doesn't have it listed at all . Even as a GC car? He told me to contact Chrysler historical. Here is a pic of where the trunk emblem was. Looks like a GC emblem outline. it's not a sure grip. The motor is looking like a later model 383 . The colum is black and it was a red int car. If I'm not mistaken the columns are the same color as the int? So it is most likely auto car with a 3spd transplant? I'm thinking its highly unusual optioned fury with a few vintage hot rod goodies. I don't know that much about 61s but I'm learning fast. Thank for everybodies input.



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ttotired
Posted 2018-09-18 2:03 PM (#570311 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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My guess is its a 318 fury that some time ago (probably when it was worth nothing) someone souped the ol girl up.

I'd just go with it, but you have a huge job to do on those rear 1/4s. Pretty much the same as what I had to do to my 60

I havnt seen a 61 in the flesh yet, but it has been said the wheel arch is slightly different to the 60s one, but I don't think
they made 61 repair sections? and 60 ones are the same shape, just something with the lip (I used 60 Plymouth ones to fix my dodge)

The supply of repair sections seems to be drying up (not seeing much on ebay), but "black car" used to have them. I will caution you though, the repair
sections I have had are better than nothing, but only just and have needed "massaging" to fit and no 2 adjoining pieces will actually match

I hope your going to fix it

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Apollo 61
Posted 2018-09-18 4:40 PM (#570326 - in reply to #570311)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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Yeah , I will do something with it. It inspired me to go get this one. Class reunion of 61



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1960fury
Posted 2018-09-18 5:09 PM (#570328 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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Pretty!!!
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horace
Posted 2018-10-02 1:19 PM (#571061 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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Here's my # 5307146978, 60 Pheonix 4dr hdtp radio delete no power steering or brakes or sure grip in a Ram Induction D500 ODDD OOODDD ball car was white new my error repainting it red. It was a Dodge factory rep car then a cousin owned it, then another cousin, then another guy, then me. A young gal wanted to be driven to her wedding last weekend but oh, for exhaust leaks to work on & redo the carbs. I think NEIL had Darrell look @ the tin tag years ago, I know the car is legit I've owned it since '65 &remember the car as a young kid. The state ran tests on the car when it was new clocked @ 142 mph, I suppose Chrysler was trying to sell the induction system @ that time the Plym & a few Darts won the highway patrol bid. It had Goodyear Eagle blue dot tires on it when I first saw it
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1960fury
Posted 2018-10-02 2:49 PM (#571063 - in reply to #570311)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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ttotired - 2018-09-18 2:03 PM

My guess is its a 318 fury that some time ago (probably when it was worth nothing) someone souped the ol girl up.




It was almost certainly a golden commando (big block) car. Look at the trunk lid, with the imprint of the GC scare emblem. If it was 318 car, someone changed it to a big block with correct emblem back in the day, when it was new. But the holes for the emblem look factory and the lid seems to be original to the car. Anyway, it's a beauty, even in that condition.
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jboymechanic
Posted 2018-10-03 4:45 PM (#571110 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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Cool car, impressive amount of rubbish under the hood! I think Sid is right, probably a factory BB car that was hopped up later in the 60s or 70s.
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CustomRoyal
Posted 2018-10-03 6:37 PM (#571114 - in reply to #570310)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question


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Rocco
My original 60 Sonoramic convertible 3 speed stick has a red dash and black column like yours!
Jim
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Stroller
Posted 2018-10-20 10:58 AM (#572036 - in reply to #569937)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question


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Wow inner fender well cut out sure would have been nice in my '71 Satalite Sebring Plus 440, talk about a pain in the bahooty to change some plugs. My '60 Fury was born with the 318 poly engine cross ram. It was ordered in '59. It had the push button delte plate put in back around '67/'68 and hole cut for a 4 spd. The badgeing emblems for this car have been taken off and wraped in newspaper since around 1963 or so. The car spent has just around 45k on the clock and the majority of it came from driving it to drag races to race. It has a heater box that has nothing in it. The trunk never got any sound deading and it was wicked fast. I wish I had pictures of it from back then but the only 1 could find was with a german shepard standing on the roof. My mom hates this car with a passion. Just think how nice it would be if folks that bought these cars new would have taken detailed snap shots of them. At any rate even if the emblems are correct my '60 Fury will never be that way again. If I could find sheet metal panels other than a trunk floor I would be in heaven.
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Apollo 61
Posted 2018-10-20 5:37 PM (#572080 - in reply to #572036)
Subject: Re: Sonoramic question



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Have you tried big m auto for sheet metal . He had a dozen of them last time I was there. I used to have 71 GTX and remember changing the plugs were a pain . There was always one that didn't get changed. Post the pic of German Shepard on the roof!!!
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