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Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-09-18 2:13 PM (#570312)
Subject: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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I am making myself quite crazy trying to figure out a work-around the earred-cap rear U-joint on my 1956 Dodge. I am NOT paying $450 for a U-joint thanks very much.

So far, the best possibility would be to find a vintage Detroit cross-type U-joint (with the 0.579" shafts) and swap the earred-end caps from my existing rear U-joint. To do that, I need to find an appropriate PN for that Detroit cross-type U-joint.

In the meantime, while looking at Mopar Mall's offerings, I see that their 58 U-joint kit has a normal cross-type U-joint. That means that between 57 and 58 the pinion drive flange design was changed. SO this gets my mind going.

"What if I could swap in a 58 Pinion Drive flange?" - then I could potentially use a "normal" cross-type U-joint.

However for this to happen, at the very least, the following would have to be true:

1. The number of splines on the drive flanges are the same, 56 and 58

2. The length of the flange out of the rear diff would have to be the same (to the center of the U-joint caps)

3. The pinion flange seal of the 58 drive flange would have to have the same outside diameter as my 56 pinion drive flange seal (so it fits in the diff housing).

I have no answers to any of the above.

I offer these photos, diagrams and part numbers for you to ponder (and hopefully trigger answers)





(57MoparFrontAndRearU_JointSet.jpg)



(58_59MoparFrontAndRearU_JointSet.jpg)



(RearDiffPartsDiagramShowingPinionDriveFlange16_20_1.jpg)



(PNsFor56_57_58PinionFlanges.jpg)



(RearDiffPinionSealPNs.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments 57MoparFrontAndRearU_JointSet.jpg (53KB - 12 downloads)
Attachments 58_59MoparFrontAndRearU_JointSet.jpg (49KB - 17 downloads)
Attachments RearDiffPartsDiagramShowingPinionDriveFlange16_20_1.jpg (154KB - 14 downloads)
Attachments PNsFor56_57_58PinionFlanges.jpg (183KB - 14 downloads)
Attachments RearDiffPinionSealPNs.jpg (185KB - 15 downloads)
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wizard
Posted 2018-09-18 2:42 PM (#570313 - in reply to #570312)
Subject: Re: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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Did you check the state of the eared cups? If your lucky they might be reuseable on a new U-joint....
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60 dart
Posted 2018-09-18 3:32 PM (#570316 - in reply to #570312)
Subject: Re: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-NOS-Neapco-Universal-Joint-280021-1...
epid=1795495616&hash=item360b52f232:g:SsMAAOSw8w1YBn2S&vxp=mtr


looks to be same people as sometimes is

https://shopautotransmissions.site/details/232118219314/vintage-nos-...



http://www.collectorsautosupply.com/parts-listing.asp?searchCategor...



Edited by 60 dart 2018-09-18 4:47 PM
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-09-18 7:01 PM (#570335 - in reply to #570316)
Subject: Re: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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Thanks for U-joint leads. However, I looking for drive flange info. That said, as I put the drive shaft back in the car, I checked how the Moog 315G sits in the 56 Dodge Pinion Drive flange. Very interesting. Based on the second photo (and poor Paint sketch), I looks like the Moog 315G just needs a machined cap to work. (Maybe )





(Moog315GSittingInOE56DodgePinionDriveFlange.jpg)



(Moog315GSittingInOE56DodgePinionDriveFlange_WithSketchOfPotentialRetainingBlock.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments Moog315GSittingInOE56DodgePinionDriveFlange.jpg (102KB - 19 downloads)
Attachments Moog315GSittingInOE56DodgePinionDriveFlange_WithSketchOfPotentialRetainingBlock.jpg (166KB - 20 downloads)
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-09-18 11:46 PM (#570362 - in reply to #570312)
Subject: Re: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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What is the pinion spline count on the yolk for this rear axle? Is there a chance that you could swap the yolk with a later 8 3/4? That's where I would put my effort first.
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-09-19 1:02 AM (#570366 - in reply to #570362)
Subject: Re: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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Powerflite - 2018-09-18 11:46 PM
What is the pinion spline count on the yolk for this rear axle? Is there a chance that you could swap the yolk with a later 8 3/4? That's where I would put my effort first.


At this point, I don't even know the spline count on my 56 Dodge rear pinion. I was hoping for a BTDT on both the 56 and the 58, not necessarily from the same person.

When I do my pinion seal (or have it done), I will get at least the 56 info.

Mostly hoping for somebody with 58 info. (I know nothing about 8 3/4" read diffs).



Edited by 56D500boy 2018-09-19 1:26 AM
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-09-19 1:24 AM (#570368 - in reply to #570312)
Subject: RE: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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56D500boy - 2018-09-18 2:13 PM

However for this to happen, at the very least, the following would have to be true:

1. The number of splines on the drive flanges are the same, 56 and 58

2. The length of the flange out of the rear diff would have to be the same (to the center of the U-joint caps)

3. The pinion flange seal of the 58 drive flange would have to have the same outside diameter as my 56 pinion drive flange seal (so it fits in the diff housing).



Item 3:

56 Dodge pinion seal = 663 602 which is now an SKF 18880 with these specs:

Width (in) 0.5
Shaft (in) 1.875
Bore (in) 3.105
Outer Diameter (in) 3.11
Boretite Y

58 Dodge pinion seal = which is now a National 9316 with these specs:

Seal Housing Bore (in): 3.16
Seal Housing Material: Metal
Seal Installation Style: Press-Fit
Seal Lip Material: Polyacrylate
Seal Outside Diameter (in): 3.165
Seal Shaft Size (in): 1.875 (same as the 56!!)
Seal Type: Design Type: Spring Loaded; Multi-Lip
Seal Width (in): 0.695

Maybe. I am finding conflicting results in my search

Close but no ceegars.


Edited by 56D500boy 2018-09-19 1:29 AM
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jboymechanic
Posted 2018-09-19 8:55 AM (#570375 - in reply to #570312)
Subject: Re: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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This is just one of the reasons I update the rear end in my 1956 Imperial to a later Mopar 8 3/4 rear end. Readily available u-joints, brake parts (including drums), parking brake in rear axle (helpful for future transmission update), no more shoe adjustments, more readily available gear ratio options and so on.
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58coupe
Posted 2018-09-19 9:53 AM (#570377 - in reply to #570312)
Subject: Re: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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Dave the 8 1/4 rear which is basically what you have was used in the 6 cylinder cars up until at least 61. You need to look for one of these to swap the yokes.
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-09-19 10:41 AM (#570379 - in reply to #570312)
Subject: Re: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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I never knew that. It isn't used in the '60 Valiant or other A-bodies. They have the newer 7 1/4. Does a '58 Plymouth 6 cylinder not get an 8 3/4??

The '56 Plymouth doesn't have this funny u-joint, but instead uses another ball & trunion joint at the axle, so it's yolk is different still, even though it uses the same axle. I ended up swapping a B-body rear into mine for the simple reason that I wanted to change the gear ratio. It's pretty tough to find optional gears for that old axle - especially if you want 2.76:1 or a sure-grip with it.

Edited by Powerflite 2018-09-19 10:49 AM
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-09-19 11:23 AM (#570384 - in reply to #570379)
Subject: Re: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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Powerflite - 2018-09-19 10:41 AM
The '56 Plymouth doesn't have this funny u-joint, but instead uses another ball & trunion joint at the axle, so it's yolk is different still, even though it uses the same axle.


Nathan: Not sure about 56 Plymouths but from what little I know about 56 Dodges, the ones with the 6 and maybe the small (270 poly) V8 got the small (3 5/8") spring-loaded ball and trunion U-joints at both ends of the drive shaft. The larger 315 V8s, got the 4" ball and trunion and the front and the hard to find "earred" Detroit cross U-joint at the read.

I think your 56 Plymouth came with a 277 Hi-Fire V8 if I remember correctly so I wouldn't be surprised that it came with two ball and trunions.



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Powerflite
Posted 2018-09-19 11:30 AM (#570386 - in reply to #570312)
Subject: Re: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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Only the Fury 303 had a larger motor in a '56 Plymouth. I wonder which joint they came with.

Edited by Powerflite 2018-09-19 11:31 AM
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jboymechanic
Posted 2018-09-19 1:05 PM (#570388 - in reply to #570312)
Subject: Re: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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56D500boy,

What is the issue with your u joint? Is it worn out? Can it be rebuild with parts from other u joints? The 1956 DeSotos, Chryslers and Imperials use a similar u joint, but most likely larger. Can you post some dimensions:

Cap diameter
Cap flange hole diameter and spacing
Distance across caps

I can compare to NOS Imperial u-joints I have.
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-09-19 3:15 PM (#570396 - in reply to #570388)
Subject: Re: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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jboymechanic - 2018-09-19 1:05 PM
What is the issue with your u joint? Is it worn out? Can it be rebuild with parts from other u joints? The 1956 DeSotos, Chryslers and Imperials use a similar u joint, but most likely larger. Can you post some dimensions:

Cap diameter
Cap flange hole diameter and spacing
Distance across caps

I can compare to NOS Imperial u-joints I have.


Thanks for the post.

For awhile now, I have been getting a ringing "CLANK" when I first put my 56 Dodge (V8 Powerflite) into gear. So on Sunday afternoon, I decided to finally remove the drive shaft and check the front (Ball and Trunion) U-joint and rear Spicer-type cross with special earred caps. During this process, I was "contributing" (debateable ) info to this 57 325 U-joint thread:

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=57727&...

In that post, some one posts a link to the rear U-joint on eBay for like $450. No way, Jose!!

This one:



I posted this photo of mine with some dimensions (missing the normal cap dimension of about 1.080")



Then I found and purchased a Moog 315G in the hopes that I could swap the end caps (normal for earred).



Turns out that the OE shaft size was much smaller than the Moog 315G shaft so swapping caps isn't possible.

That lead my to start my own rear U-joint thread with the emphasis on somehow being able to use the $22 Canadian Moog 315G U-joint. I think that it will fit in the drive shaft yoke, the issue is what to do at the pinion shaft.






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Powerflite
Posted 2018-09-19 3:27 PM (#570397 - in reply to #570312)
Subject: Re: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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I doubt that u-joint is the cause of your clunk. If your bearings look good and you don't see (or measure) any visible wear, then I would clean it up, grease it, and put it back in. Your clunk most likely came from the front ball & trunion, something in your e-brake, or something in your trans. Of those, the ball & trunion is the biggest suspect.

Edited by Powerflite 2018-09-19 3:28 PM
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wizard
Posted 2018-09-19 3:48 PM (#570398 - in reply to #570396)
Subject: Re: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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56D500boy - 2018-09-19 9:15 PM

For awhile now, I have been getting a ringing "CLANK" when I first put my 56 Dodge (V8 Powerflite) into gear. So on Sunday afternoon, I decided to finally remove the drive shaft and check the front (Ball and Trunion) U-joint and rear Spicer-type cross with special earred caps. During this process, I was "contributing" (debateable ) info to this 57 325 U-joint thread:



Dave - try this first of all;


- Press down the brake

- Always start with "D" first of all, even if you need to go in reverse.

- Wait until you feel that the gear is engaged.

- Now press in "R" and you will most probaly not hear any "clank"
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jboymechanic
Posted 2018-09-19 9:38 PM (#570419 - in reply to #570312)
Subject: Re: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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Checked my Imperial u joints. Same style, but much larger as expected. Sorry.
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-09-20 2:14 PM (#570454 - in reply to #570312)
Subject: Re: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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Sven, what do the results of this test tell you?
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57chizler
Posted 2018-09-20 5:39 PM (#570463 - in reply to #570377)
Subject: Re: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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58coupe - 2018-09-19 6:53 AM

Dave the 8 1/4 rear which is basically what you have was used in the 6 cylinder cars up until at least 61. You need to look for one of these to swap the yokes.


Yes. the 8 1/4" R&P lasted up into the sixties and the later yoke used the very common 7260 u-joint, so it makes sense to swap yokes to use the readily available 7260 instead of trying to find the original orphan u-joint.

All 8 1/4" and 8 3/4" pinions prior to '69 had 10 splines so any 10-spline 7260 yoke should fit the pinion all the way back to '53; there might be differences in the pinion seal (early housing/late yoke) that require some creative searching.
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wizard
Posted 2018-09-22 4:03 AM (#570552 - in reply to #570454)
Subject: Re: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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Powerflite - 2018-09-20 8:14 PM

Sven, what do the results of this test tell you?


When the car is parked, the transmission fluid will slowly drain back into the pan and the lines are practically empty.


When the D is engaged, the line pressure will build up to 85-95 psi and the circuit will be pressurised.


If R instead is engaged the line pressure will build up to 225-275 psi directly and this will cause a pressure blow that will result in a CLONK as the mechanical elements reverse the mesh.


So, the best and smoothest for the old transmissions is to always engage "D" first and let the circuit pressurize and engage - thereafter engage "R" and there will normally be no CLANK


So actually his is no test, it's just a handling advice for longer transmission life
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di_ch_NY56
Posted 2018-09-22 7:22 AM (#570559 - in reply to #570312)
Subject: RE: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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I guess the point is to swap the pinion flange to use e.g. the Moog G315-u joke instead of the very, very expensive u-joke with the ears at the pinion flange side. As Wizard stated, the clonk noise is from another source. In my 56 NY it's the same type u-joke. Few years back it got one from Andy Bernbaum. I assume it will be ways more difficult to get one of these u-joint as they disapper... Basically I would expect that the 57/58 8 3/4" rear end has that flange, because (when my NY was at Wizards) we realized that the 56 NY is basically a predecessor of the 57 8 3/4" rear end. Don't know if the same rear end (as in my NY) was used in high power 56 Dodge cars (D500?).

Happy Restoring!

Dieter

BTW: Watch my photo album (di_ch_NY56). Most possibly there is a picture of the pinion where you could estimate the spline count

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56D500boy
Posted 2018-09-22 1:49 PM (#570574 - in reply to #570559)
Subject: RE: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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Thanks for your replies guys.

Powerflite: Just to be "safe", I have found and purchased a NOS ball and trunion housing and also rebuild bits for it. So that end will be covered. In the meantime, I greased the existing joints and put the driveshaft back on.

Wizard/Sven: Thanks for the "CLANG" eliminating instructions. You probably posted that before for somebody (or me) but your second post with the details and pressures drives is home for me. Tak.

jboymechanic: Thanks for looking

57Chizler/John: Thanks for the "10 spline" info. That is what I was looking for. Gives me a lead to try and find one. Looks like the 58 Flange (with a 7260 style U-joint) would be a 1828 644 (see below)

Dieter: Thanks for your comments. As far as I can tell, the 56 D500s (at least the non-race versions) used the same rear diff as the normal D6-3 V8s did (see below). I tried to access your photo album but failed.

Something like this could be "Plan B"









Edited by 56D500boy 2018-09-22 1:51 PM




(55-58PinionFlangePNs853564And1828644.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments 55-58PinionFlangePNs853564And1828644.jpg (186KB - 18 downloads)
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57chizler
Posted 2018-09-22 5:40 PM (#570586 - in reply to #570574)
Subject: RE: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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The pic above is not of a Detroit u-joint, it's a Spicer.

This is the one you want:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mopar-Pinion-Yoke-10-Spline-7260-8-3-4/1834...

Edited by 57chizler 2018-09-22 5:52 PM
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-09-23 10:42 AM (#570616 - in reply to #570586)
Subject: RE: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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57chizler - 2018-09-22 5:40 PM

The pic above is not of a Detroit u-joint, it's a Spicer.
This is the one you want:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mopar-Pinion-Yoke-10-Spline-7260-8-3-4/1834...



Thanks. Bought that 10 spline Yoke to further my investigation. Today I go back to check eBay and there is another one, cheaper, and with no grooves where the seal sits. Go figure.

In either case, I will still need the caps and have no clue why they aren't included with the yoke. That one didn't use U-bolts. Those are blind threaded holes.





Not like this one (yes, I know it isn't a 10 spliner, I just wanted to show the U-bolts):







Edited by 56D500boy 2018-09-23 10:49 AM
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57chizler
Posted 2018-09-23 3:27 PM (#570625 - in reply to #570616)
Subject: RE: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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The 7260 strap and bolt kits are readily available from Mopar Performance, P/N is P4120468. Dorman and Help! also offer them but I don't have a number.

Be careful, the 7290 straps look the same but the bolt holes are wider apart.
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-09-23 3:35 PM (#570627 - in reply to #570625)
Subject: RE: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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57chizler - 2018-09-23 3:27 PM

The 7260 strap and bolt kits are readily available from Mopar Performance, P/N is P4120468. Dorman and Help! also offer them but I don't have a number.


Thanks so much.

Like this:

"Mopar Performance U-Joint Strap and Bolt Package - P4120468"

https://www.moparonlineperformance.com/product-p/p4120468.htm



Found the straps locally as a Dorman 81006:

https://www.carid.com/dorman/7260-series-universal-joint-strap-kit-m...



Edited by 56D500boy 2018-09-23 4:06 PM
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-09-24 6:06 PM (#570711 - in reply to #570627)
Subject: RE: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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Update:

Found a couple of local sources of aftermarket (Dorman) 7260 U-joint strap kits and in doing so, I bumped into an OE PN, i.e. 1828 824 for the 58 Dodge U-joint clamps. That lead to an eBay search where I found five of them for a real good price. I will only need two of them so I will have at least 2 available for somebody else that needs them.

Also found some general 7260 versus 7290 information that will come in handy.

Rock Auto has the Dorman 81006 clamps for cheap:

https://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/dorman,81006,universal+joint+strap...







(1828824U_JointClampPNInPartsCatalogue.jpg)



(7260_7290Info.jpg)



(eBay18288247260Clamps.jpg)



(s-l1600_3.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments 1828824U_JointClampPNInPartsCatalogue.jpg (183KB - 12 downloads)
Attachments 7260_7290Info.jpg (58KB - 10 downloads)
Attachments eBay18288247260Clamps.jpg (203KB - 12 downloads)
Attachments s-l1600_3.jpg (171KB - 11 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-09-25 5:38 PM (#570768 - in reply to #570711)
Subject: RE: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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Because the NOS 7260 U-joint straps that I bought don't have bolts and my local Mopar dealer wanted $9 per bolt (need 4), I tracked down a Neapco 1-0023 strap kit at a local drive-shaft repair company. $8 in my hand (with 4 bolts). I just found them on eBay as well, for less money (but $7 for shipping):

Neapco Inc 1-0023 Universal Joint Strap Kit:

https://www.ebay.com/p/Neapco-Inc-1-0023-Universal-Joint-Strap-Kit/1...

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56D500boy
Posted 2018-09-26 11:09 PM (#570808 - in reply to #570768)
Subject: RE: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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That recent link to the 58 Belvie for sale included photos of the rear diff and how those straps hold the U-joint into the flange. My pinion flange isn't scheduled for delivery until Oct. 2 so I will have to be patient.





(58PlymouthRearDiffShowingPinionFlangeAndClampSystem.jpg)



(58PlymouthRearDiffShowingPinionFlangeAndClampSystem_2.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments 58PlymouthRearDiffShowingPinionFlangeAndClampSystem.jpg (117KB - 9 downloads)
Attachments 58PlymouthRearDiffShowingPinionFlangeAndClampSystem_2.jpg (108KB - 15 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-10-03 4:00 PM (#571107 - in reply to #570808)
Subject: RE: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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56D500boy - 2018-09-26 11:09 PM
That recent link to the 58 Belvie for sale included photos of the rear diff and how those straps hold the U-joint into the flange. My pinion flange isn't scheduled for delivery until Oct. 2 so I will have to be patient.


Pinion flange yoke came in yesterday and I went down to pick it up (and few other things, like the OE U-joint straps). On my way home, I stopped by the "Rear Ends Only" shop and showed them the yoke, asking about the groove (see photo below). They said it was 50/50 that it would work with out leaking even with a new seal. They suggested that I need to get a speedy sleeve from (insert shop name here). So I left the read end shop and went to the second shop (Lordco in my case) where they were able to pick me a Chicago Rawhide (brand, no cows died for me) Speedy sleeve. Not cheap. CDN$52 plus taxes. Hmmm....Back at home I determined that I could buy a NEW 10 spline flange for a 58 Dodge equivalent with the 7260 UJoint for CDN$94 (I need to check the dimensions).

So now I am torn: To Sleeve or not to Sleeve? That is the question. Alas, poor Exner. I knew him well, Horatio

What I bought:



What it needs (the "cap" on the left is the tool that you use to install the sleeve (shown on the right) on the shaft):






Edited by 56D500boy 2018-10-03 5:29 PM
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-10-03 8:05 PM (#571117 - in reply to #570312)
Subject: Re: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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Before you get too far, I would try it out and measure it to compare to your old one.
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-10-03 9:01 PM (#571119 - in reply to #571117)
Subject: Re: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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Location: Lower Mainland BC
Powerflite - 2018-10-03 8:05 PM
Before you get too far, I would try it out and measure it to compare to your old one.


I hear you but that is a problem. I probably can't get the pinion nut off with the car slightly jacked up (with jack stands) and me laying on my garage floor.

BUT I will have to try. If I did get it out, then the question is, do I replace the seal right then or ??

In the meantime, here are some photos of the Moog 315G (equivalent to a 7260 "Small Dodge") U-joint sitting in my "new" 58 Dodge style pinion yoke with one end held in with a Neapco Strap (and bolts) and the other with an OE strap (and Neapco bolts). If this goes ahead, I will use two OE straps because they fit best (DUH). OE bolts were $9 each at the local Dodge Dealer so the four Neapco bolts and two straps for $7 or so was a deal.

Also shown is the Chicago Rawhide Speedi-Sleeve ready to be banged on. (But I found out this afternoon that my NOS guy might have a NOS 58 Dodge pinion flange for not much more than the Speedi-Sleeve (which I would return)).

Progress, but the end is not in sight due to the unknowns, etc. The pinion shaft sizes seem to be the same between the 58 style and my existing 56 style, i.e. 1.875 inches, which means a stock 663 602 seal should work.



Edited by 56D500boy 2018-10-03 9:06 PM




(Moog315GSittingInTenSpline58DodgeStylePinionDriveFlangeWithOEandNeapcoCaps.jpg)



(Moog315GSittingInTenSpline58DodgeStylePinionDriveFlange_NeapcoCap.jpg)



(Moog315GSittingInTenSpline58DodgeStylePinionDriveFlange_OECapAndNeapcoBolts.jpg)



(Moog315GSittingInTenSpline58DodgeStylePinionDriveFlangeWithOEandNeapcoCaps_ShowingChicagoRawhide99187SpeediSleeve.jpg)



(ChicagoRawhide99187SpeediSleeveShowingShaftSizeRange.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments Moog315GSittingInTenSpline58DodgeStylePinionDriveFlangeWithOEandNeapcoCaps.jpg (99KB - 8 downloads)
Attachments Moog315GSittingInTenSpline58DodgeStylePinionDriveFlange_NeapcoCap.jpg (125KB - 7 downloads)
Attachments Moog315GSittingInTenSpline58DodgeStylePinionDriveFlange_OECapAndNeapcoBolts.jpg (133KB - 7 downloads)
Attachments Moog315GSittingInTenSpline58DodgeStylePinionDriveFlangeWithOEandNeapcoCaps_ShowingChicagoRawhide99187SpeediSleeve.jpg (110KB - 10 downloads)
Attachments ChicagoRawhide99187SpeediSleeveShowingShaftSizeRange.jpg (102KB - 9 downloads)
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-10-03 9:50 PM (#571120 - in reply to #570312)
Subject: Re: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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Posts: 4723
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Location: So. California
An air compressor and strong air impact gun makes this job very quick. They make electric impact guns now that aren't too bad, but don't quite have the impact that the air gun provides. But you could give one of those a try if you are adverse to getting an air compressor. I am realizing that I can no longer live without a sand blasting cabinet, so even though I really don't have the space to put one of those things in my increasingly crowded garage, I am going to get one and figure it out.
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-10-03 10:34 PM (#571124 - in reply to #571120)
Subject: Re: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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Powerflite - 2018-10-03 9:50 PM

An air compressor and strong air impact gun makes this job very quick. They make electric impact guns now that aren't too bad, but don't quite have the impact that the air gun provides. But you could give one of those a try if you are adverse to getting an air compressor.


I have a small air compressor and air impact gun as well as an electric impact gun (but I can't remember what the maximum setting is). I don't know what the size of the pinion nut is but I am guessing larger than any impact socket that I own.

All that said, I would be worried about chipping crown/pinion gear teeth during the impacting.

But all that said, may be that is what I need to try.

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58coupe
Posted 2018-10-04 10:02 AM (#571131 - in reply to #570312)
Subject: Re: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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Speedi sleeves are expensive but they will allow you to use a part that is grooved or slightly damaged without replacement. If as you say you can buy a new yoke cheaply, go that route. I have used speedi sleeves many times with good results, just be careful when installing.
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57chizler
Posted 2018-10-04 12:56 PM (#571138 - in reply to #571131)
Subject: Re: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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The pinion nut should be 1 1/8". Many folks use a large pipe wrench to hold the yoke while removing the nut or you can get one of these:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rat-18001

As to the groove in the yoke seal surface, it's not that bad, I'd run it as is.
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-10-05 9:12 PM (#571189 - in reply to #571131)
Subject: Re: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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Posts: 3682
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Location: Lower Mainland BC
58coupe - 2018-10-04 10:02 AM

Speedi sleeves are expensive but they will allow you to use a part that is grooved or slightly damaged without replacement. If as you say you can buy a new yoke cheaply, go that route. I have used speedi sleeves many times with good results, just be careful when installing.


Okay. Went to my NOS guy this afternoon. Picked up a NOS 58 Dodge 1828 644 rear pinion flange that I will keep and a NOS 57 Dodge 1738 748 Pinion Drive Flange for comparison that I will return to him Also bought a couple of SKF 18880 seals that are the modern equivalent to the OE 56 Dodge (and others?) 663 602 seal.

The 1738 748 flange *looks* identical or at least very similar to the flange on my 56 Dodge. 57s also had the rear U-joint with the "earred" caps. Like this 1752 623:



The 1828 644 crossed up to a much later flange, i.e. a 3004 872, at least that is what my NOS guy said. Supposedly the same thing as a 58 Dodge 1826 644, just a newer NOS PN. I will call it an 1828 644 to be consistent. Both it and the 57 1738 748 seem to have the same key dimensions, i.e. the distance from the 10 spline end of the flange to the "bottom" of the U-joint bearing cap seat.

The 18880 seal for my 56 Dodge fits the 58 Dodge flange, so that is another hurdle crossed. I think it is going to be a "Go with Flaps up"!!

Some photos:




Edited by 56D500boy 2018-10-05 9:17 PM




(3004872AsA1828644_RearPinionFlange.jpg)



(1828644WithMoog315GAndOEStrapsAndBolts.jpg)



(1828644_NOS_SealEnd_NiceAndSmooth.jpg)



(SKF18880AsOE663602PinionShaftSeal.jpg)



(SKF18880PinionSealSittingLooselyOnA1828644PinionFlange.jpg)



(1738748_57Dodge_RearPinionFlange_NOS.jpg)



(LiningUpThe1738748WithThe1828644ToShowCriticalPinionEndToBearing SeatDimensionIsTheSame_ish.jpg)



(Moog315GSitingInTheBearingSeatOfBoth1828644and1737748Flanges.jpg)



(InnerEndsOf1828644and1738748RearPinionFlanges.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments 3004872AsA1828644_RearPinionFlange.jpg (123KB - 7 downloads)
Attachments 1828644WithMoog315GAndOEStrapsAndBolts.jpg (93KB - 3 downloads)
Attachments 1828644_NOS_SealEnd_NiceAndSmooth.jpg (107KB - 7 downloads)
Attachments SKF18880AsOE663602PinionShaftSeal.jpg (130KB - 4 downloads)
Attachments SKF18880PinionSealSittingLooselyOnA1828644PinionFlange.jpg (94KB - 3 downloads)
Attachments 1738748_57Dodge_RearPinionFlange_NOS.jpg (126KB - 5 downloads)
Attachments LiningUpThe1738748WithThe1828644ToShowCriticalPinionEndToBearing SeatDimensionIsTheSame_ish.jpg (96KB - 6 downloads)
Attachments Moog315GSitingInTheBearingSeatOfBoth1828644and1737748Flanges.jpg (127KB - 4 downloads)
Attachments InnerEndsOf1828644and1738748RearPinionFlanges.jpg (126KB - 5 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-10-06 6:46 PM (#571229 - in reply to #571189)
Subject: Re: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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Previously I said:

56D500boy - 2018-09-18 2:13 PM

However for this to happen, at the very least, the following would have to be true:

1. The number of splines on the drive flanges are the same, 56 and 58
2. The length of the flange out of the rear diff would have to be the same (to the center of the U-joint caps)
3. The pinion flange seal of the 58 drive flange would have to have the same outside diameter as my 56 pinion drive flange seal (so it fits in the diff housing).
I have no answers to any of the above.


As of yesterday, the answers to the above seem to be:

1. Same. 10 splines (and the same diameters)

2. Seems to be the same length (or close enough to let the front ball and trunion adjust to the minor difference)

3. The OE 56 Pinion seal 663 602 (now an SKF 18880) fits the nose of the 58 flange (same diameters).

All of which seem to say, this should work.

Proof is in the pudding.

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56D500boy
Posted 2018-10-08 4:50 PM (#571346 - in reply to #571229)
Subject: Re: Potential of swapping a 1956 Pinion Drive Flange for a 1958 Drive Flange



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Posts: 3682
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Location: Lower Mainland BC
Before I return the OE-style earred U-joint that I recently got from an well known supplier as "New Old Stock" (complete BS, you can see where it had been bolted to the OE flange and besides, that is more than "shelf dust"), I decided to check the diameter of the end cap that sits in the end of the driveshaft.

What I measured (with a MAC tools digitial caliper) was 1.0795. Then I measured the Moog 315G that I hope to be able to use in the 58 10 spline flange and got 1.0785, so I think we have another winner.

This is NOS??? I think not.



Edited by 56D500boy 2018-10-08 9:05 PM
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