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361 and 440 and 727 transmission
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goat19642004
Posted 2018-10-06 8:09 AM (#571202)
Subject: 361 and 440 and 727 transmission



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Location: Clifton Springs, NY
I’m working on a 64 Fury project with a 361 and 727 transmission. The motor is tired and I’m looking at putting a blue print engines 493 ( 72 440 block) with a 8 bolt crankshaft in its place. Will the 64 push button 727 bolt up ?
Thanks!
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sonaramic300
Posted 2018-10-06 9:43 AM (#571204 - in reply to #571202)
Subject: Re: 361 and 440 and 727 transmission


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The easiest way to tell is look at the 8 bolt holes and answer this question. Are the 8 bolt holes threaded or smooth inside?

Some (many) stroker cranks have an 8 bolt flange that is shaped and sized like a 6 bolt flange from 1962 and newer. Engine. They have threaded holes. If this is the case it will bolt up with the correct aftermarket flex plate.

If the 8 bolt crank has a 1961 and older 8 bolt flange with no threads in the holes for a cast iron torqueflight then an aluminum 727 will not fit. I don't think you can make a stock crank add make 493 cubic inches.

Edited by sonaramic300 2018-10-06 9:46 AM
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58coupe
Posted 2018-10-06 11:45 AM (#571210 - in reply to #571202)
Subject: Re: 361 and 440 and 727 transmission



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The one thing to watch for is the engine balance. The 361 is internally balanced but who knows how the stroker is balanced. The stock 440 from about 71-72 had a cast crank and was externally balanced.
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LostDeere59
Posted 2018-10-06 12:11 PM (#571211 - in reply to #571202)
Subject: RE: 361 and 440 and 727 transmission



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I may be incorrect, but my understanding at this point is that the aluminum case torqueflites arrived at the same time the crankshaft was changed. So simply put aluminum case transmissions will bolt to any "standard" crankshaft, and iron case transmissions require the early crankshaft which is shorter and has smooth holes.

I have a 64 Dodge with a 383 and aluminum pushbutton torqueflite which I'm told are "standard" crank/torque converter units.

As far as the internal/external balance issue, with an aluminum case trans the torque converters are readily available, so swapping to one appropriate for your new engine shouldn't be an issue.


Gregg

Edited by LostDeere59 2018-10-06 12:13 PM
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goat19642004
Posted 2018-10-06 3:19 PM (#571215 - in reply to #571202)
Subject: Re: 361 and 440 and 727 transmission



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Location: Clifton Springs, NY
My apologies, the crank is an aftermarket stroker unit from the 440 source.
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57chizler
Posted 2018-10-06 4:43 PM (#571220 - in reply to #571202)
Subject: RE: 361 and 440 and 727 transmission



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Assuming your stroker motor will be internally balanced, the later 8-bolt (Hemi) crank flange will require a converter drive flexplate such as the B&M #10231.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/bmm-10231

This flexplate, and most 8-bolt flexplates, are drilled only for the small 10" converter bolt pattern, your original '64 11 3/4" converter will have the larger 11 1/8" bolt pattern. So, this necessitates using a converter with the smaller bolt pattern and this will be a problem because the pre-'67 input shaft has 19 splines and the more common later input is 24 splines. 19-spline converters aren't that plentiful.

Since your stroker motor will overwhelm your stock '64 trans, the wise way to go would be to have it rebuilt and upgraded to the 24-spline input which will accept just about any performance converter.
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goat19642004
Posted 2018-10-07 9:05 AM (#571256 - in reply to #571202)
Subject: Re: 361 and 440 and 727 transmission



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Location: Clifton Springs, NY
Thanks!
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sonaramic300
Posted 2018-10-08 9:39 PM (#571363 - in reply to #571202)
Subject: Re: 361 and 440 and 727 transmission


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Lostdeere59: the early crankshaft with 8 smooth bolt holes is LONGER than the 1962 and newer crankshaft with threaded bolt holes. The flange sticks out further so the nuts can go on the converter studs between the back of the block and the crank flange.
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-10-08 11:42 PM (#571369 - in reply to #571220)
Subject: RE: 361 and 440 and 727 transmission



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57chizler - 2018-10-06 1:43 PM

...This flexplate, and most 8-bolt flexplates, are drilled only for the small 10" converter bolt pattern, your original '64 11 3/4" converter will have the larger 11 1/8" bolt pattern. So, this necessitates using a converter with the smaller bolt pattern and this will be a problem because the pre-'67 input shaft has 19 splines and the more common later input is 24 splines. 19-spline converters aren't that plentiful.


John, but didn't the '64 and '65 hemi cars use 8 bolt cranks too? How did they connect up to their transmissions?

Also, a simpler solution is to contact Bob at HotHemiHeads.com and ask for their flexplate. They make them with both torque converter bolt patterns for 8 bolt cranks. The only thing is you will have to drill them out to 1/2" size since they come with 7/16" holes. Also, just check to make sure that they didn't change the depth spec on them since they are made for a conversion. But I *believe* the depth is the same on them.
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Shep
Posted 2018-10-09 3:15 PM (#571391 - in reply to #571202)
Subject: Re: 361 and 440 and 727 transmission



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Yes those SS Hemis had the 8 bolt crank, so you use the appropriate Hemi flexplate, no big deal, I had a 9" B and M convertor, everything bolted up fine. Gotta use all the proper bolts of course.
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LostDeere59
Posted 2018-10-09 9:17 PM (#571410 - in reply to #571363)
Subject: Re: 361 and 440 and 727 transmission



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sonaramic300 - 2018-10-08 9:39 PM

Lostdeere59: the early crankshaft with 8 smooth bolt holes is LONGER than the 1962 and newer crankshaft with threaded bolt holes. The flange sticks out further so the nuts can go on the converter studs between the back of the block and the crank flange.


Thank you for the clarification. I haven't taken mine apart yet, and like many things on these cars I'm still learning.


Gregg
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LostDeere59
Posted 2018-10-10 12:31 PM (#571430 - in reply to #571410)
Subject: Re: 361 and 440 and 727 transmission



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So if the later crank is shorter (and doesn't extend into the torque converter housing) is it possible to adapt a later motor to the early cast iron trans?

I assume it would bolt up to the trans, but that there would be a gap between the crank flange and converter bolts?

Is there room for, and has anyone ever made, an adapter to connect the two?

I ask because that would allow me to address my driveline upgrades in two steps (engine, then trans) rather than wholesale replacement.


Gregg
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-10-10 1:34 PM (#571432 - in reply to #571202)
Subject: Re: 361 and 440 and 727 transmission



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*IF* you have an 8 bolt crank in your motor like from a stroker setup, then you probably could machine down the stock spacer/adapter thinner, or remove it entirely to try to get the trans close enough to work. You would also need to space back the starter the same amount. If you don't have an 8 bolt crank, you really don't have a hope of making it work because there would be no way to mate up the torque converter - unless you can take it apart somehow and create a different 6 bolt mount for it.
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sonaramic300
Posted 2018-10-11 11:07 AM (#571495 - in reply to #571202)
Subject: Re: 361 and 440 and 727 transmission


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On the news shorter crank, the flange is in the area where there should be air space so the nuts can go on the studs from the converter. Don't think it will happen to find or make an adapter.
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57chizler
Posted 2018-10-11 12:49 PM (#571499 - in reply to #571495)
Subject: Re: 361 and 440 and 727 transmission



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Since the OP stated that he is using a stroker crank from 440 Source, any discussion of the long/short crank flanges is moot; that stroker crank will have the short '64-'71 Hemi 8-bolt flange.

And, yes, the original '64-'71 Hemi flexplate will work but it also comes in only the 10" bolt circle with 7/16" bolts. Aftermarket converters come with either the 5/16" or 7/16" bolts so the B&M, which accepts either bolt, is more versatile and easier to find.
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