The Forward Look Network
The Forward Look Network
Search | Statistics | User Listing Forums | Chat | eBay | Calendars | Albums | Skins | Language
You are logged in as a guest. ( logon | register )

Adding long rams questions
Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page]
View previous thread :: View next thread
   Forward Look Technical Discussions -> Engine, Exhaust, Fuel and IgnitionMessage format
 
Apollo 61
Posted 2018-10-18 5:52 AM (#571893)
Subject: Adding long rams questions


Regular

Posts: 90
252525
Thinking that my 61 ply was a long ram car originally. Now I don't think that it is. I have located a few and would like to add it. What kinda problems can I expect in doing so. I just have the intakes with nothing else. Is there a replacement carbs that will work if 2903s aren't available? Are the exhaust manifolds different? Will stock 361/383 manifolds work with them? The crossover is that just a rubber line ? Are repop air cleaners available? Are they any good. I see linkage in a previous post. If I decide to go with a 413 instead of a 383 does that change anything? The inner fender cutouts will the intake work with out them? I heard there were some fiberglass repops ? Anything else I haven't mentioned that I should know? I don't want to start this and run into any road blocks!!! Any advise or opinions ?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Sonoramic60
Posted 2018-10-18 8:43 AM (#571896 - in reply to #571893)
Subject: RE: Adding long rams questions


Elite Veteran

Posts: 1184
1000100252525
Apollo --
1. Ram exhaust manifolds are different as they have the heat risers for the ram tubes and help support them.
2. The crossover tube is steel with rubber connectors.
3. There are repo air cleaners available from Sweden (I think), either metal or plastic, at about $450 apiece.
4. My '60 Fury is a real SonoRamic car, albeit a very early one, and it does not have the fender cutouts.
5. Block-off plates for the heads are available.
6. The proper carb and accelerator linkage is always a very difficult item to acquire.
I am sure other guys will expand on this for you.
Joe Godec
'57 Chrysler 300C, '60 Fury SonoRamic, '65 Fuelie Vette, '65 Sport Fury 426-S/4-Speed
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-10-18 8:43 AM (#571897 - in reply to #571893)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5563
50005002525
Location: northern germany
The exhaust manifolds are different and that is the biggest problem, as you will need the heat risers, unless you live near the equator or you drive only in hot weather. The exhaust manifolds are hard to find and VERY expensive. The 413 will work (will add weight, some small parts like brackets might be different) but as I pointed out again and again, the 383 is the superior engine.
If you are asking me, if you want a reliable, troublefree daily driver that does not eat too much fuel, run a single 4v instead of the 2x4 long rams.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
finsruskw
Posted 2018-10-18 9:02 AM (#571898 - in reply to #571893)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Expert

Posts: 1829
100050010010010025
Location: Eastern Iowa
Other than the WOW factor, they are a pain in the ass.
Your mileage will suck.
Finding decent gas to make it run right is another issue.
My car is all but undriveable in VERY hot weather due to under hood heat issues and crappy gas

I have had my F on the road now since 1985 and am tired of the constant maintenance issues.
Change plugs in one and do a tune up and you will know what I mean.
Fitting the correct exhaust to it, IF you can find the manifolds, is another issue.
Gotta be worse w/o the cut outs in the fenders for sure.
If you are looking for a money pit...or have won the lottery...go for it!!

Edited by finsruskw 2018-10-18 9:04 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
jboymechanic
Posted 2018-10-18 12:18 PM (#571909 - in reply to #571897)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Expert

Posts: 1343
100010010010025
Location: Muskego, WI
1960fury - 2018-10-18 7:43 AM

The exhaust manifolds are different and that is the biggest problem, as you will need the heat risers, unless you live near the equator or you drive only in hot weather. The exhaust manifolds are hard to find and VERY expensive. The 413 will work (will add weight, some small parts like brackets might be different) but as I pointed out again and again, the 383 is the superior engine.
If you are asking me, if you want a reliable, troublefree daily driver that does not eat too much fuel, run a single 4v instead of the 2x4 long rams.


Ditto.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Sonoramic60
Posted 2018-10-18 12:42 PM (#571911 - in reply to #571909)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions


Elite Veteran

Posts: 1184
1000100252525
Sid --
Can you believe that when I had that first Big-Tailed Beast back in 1960-1964, I put Hedman Hedders on that ram-inducted mill? Yup, up here in Colorado. Not only the stream-lined (but not tuned) headers, but also 4.10 gears in the differential. I wasn't the brightest bulb in the pack in those days, but a typical college guy of the era and one that had a VERY quick car.
Fins --
My current BTB isn't really all that bad to keep in tune as plugs are easy to change when it's on a lift. I do run about five gallons of 110 octane leaded racing fuel in every tank which works very well. And since I recall driving that first ram car with the headers and 4.10s, the current 11 MPG on the highway and 7 in town (if I don't put my foot into it) isn't bad. That bit about not hammering it is somewhat of a problem as I can't seem to ignore a challenge by some Jap crap tuner.
Joe
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-10-18 2:11 PM (#571915 - in reply to #571893)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5563
50005002525
Location: northern germany
Joe, maybe that was the reason the garage guy told you, they made a nice clang when they hit the bottom of the trash can, after you sold it?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
BigBlockMopar
Posted 2018-10-18 2:39 PM (#571920 - in reply to #571893)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Expert

Posts: 3492
20001000100100100100252525
Location: Netherlands
I'm currently using my longrammed '60 NY as a daily driver this week.

Current temps are around 7-10° C in the mornings.
The engine does not have the correct castiron manifolds, instead it has shorty headers.
It has no heat riser system at all, besides the exhaust tubes right beneath them.
It has no choke mechanisms on the two 'too large' 90's 625cfm Carter carbs currently on the intakes. Not even fast-idle.
It has a rather large cam with a very lopey idle, giving lower engine vacuum, not helping idle-quality at all.

But still, I can still start the car up every morning, play with the throttle a few times, one foot on the brake and the other on the throttle, push Drive and drive off fairly decently.

I do agree, the car can be a bit of a handful to drive. But things are a factor more complicated with the wildish roller cam I stuck in the stroker engine.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-10-18 3:16 PM (#571922 - in reply to #571893)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5563
50005002525
Location: northern germany
Bigblock, these even had cold start driving issues with working heat risers and brand new, this is from old road tests. Also driving without heatrisers will damage the engine and foul plugs in the long run. Fouled plugs were a big problem with these when they were new (indicating cylinderwall oil-washdown) this was blamed on weak springs in the heat riser! Go figure.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
BigBlockMopar
Posted 2018-10-18 3:39 PM (#571923 - in reply to #571893)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Expert

Posts: 3492
20001000100100100100252525
Location: Netherlands
I agree the entire system is a big invitation for fuel to drop out of suspension again on its way to the engine in those cold long intake tubes.
LPG/Propane (or port-injected fuel) would be a perfect setup for these kind of systems.

Plugfouling is usually caused by a working choke-system, that is in operation for too long if the heatrisers are not working properly.

I have an air/fuel ratio guage in my '60, and can monitor if the mixture is rich or lean at every moment in time.
Currently I have tuned the carbs to be on the lean side to prevent plugfouling. This works nicely as, especially this week, when I get stuck into heavy traffic/semi-strationary traffic right after I leave my neighborhood, leading up to the highway.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-10-18 4:03 PM (#571928 - in reply to #571893)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5563
50005002525
Location: northern germany
BigBlock, please tell me how you cold start without choke and fast idle and drive without that. This is actually not possible in cold weather unless you have the curb idle WAY too high or the foot always on the gas and drive without stop and go until the engine is warm enough to maintain idle. Not my idea of daily driver. The engine can't idle without "fast idle" when cold.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
mstrug
Posted 2018-10-18 4:04 PM (#571929 - in reply to #571893)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5622
5000500100
Location: Newark, Texas (Fort Worth)
Info?

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=29144&...
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Powerflite
Posted 2018-10-18 10:34 PM (#571942 - in reply to #571893)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Expert

Posts: 4813
20002000500100100100
Location: So. California
Here is my advice. I am doing the same thing, i.e. installing a cross ram system on a 413 in a '60 New Yorker. Even though I have a set of the correct exhaust manifolds, I am going to ditch them and install direct port injection. I will send the intakes to Wilson, who will weld & machine them for the injectors and make the fuel logs. Run them with a self-learning, dual throttle body system like FITech or FAST. Hide the throttle bodies under the original air cleaners. Then you can use whatever exhaust you want to , and you don't have to worry about any fuel issues at all. That's my plan.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Apollo 61
Posted 2018-10-19 12:50 AM (#571950 - in reply to #571893)
Subject: RE: Adding long rams questions


Regular

Posts: 90
252525
The price I have to pay for the intakes is to remove a ford class A motorhome for scrap. It's as big as a bus and full of black mold. Wrecking yards charge about $1500 to remove these. Even then they don't want them. I'm gonna pick them up even if I don't use them. I think they have a WOW factor just hanging on the wall,let alone under the hood. I can see that they would most likely need the support of the exhaust manifolds or risk cracking from vibration or leverage? Also do you have to have a 2903s carbs or will some other carbs work, is there something special about a 2903s carb? I have a friend who says he can make the inner fender cutouts ,but has to have a sample to work with. Powerflite let me know how that works out for you.

Edited by Apollo 61 2018-10-19 12:52 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
58coupe
Posted 2018-10-19 10:34 AM (#571963 - in reply to #571893)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Expert

Posts: 1283
1000100100252525
Location: Alaska
I ran a set of long rams on my 58 Fury without the proper exhaust manifolds and they worked well, maybe a little cold when first started. You don't have to worry about cracking, they are strong enough, but make sure you get a good seal on the gasket. You don't need 2903s just small AFBs but I don't believe the original air cleaners will fit the newer carbs. Powerflite has the answer to make these really perform, MPI.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
BigBlockMopar
Posted 2018-10-19 2:58 PM (#571987 - in reply to #571928)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Expert

Posts: 3492
20001000100100100100252525
Location: Netherlands
1960fury - 2018-10-18 10:03 AM

BigBlock, please tell me how you cold start without choke and fast idle and drive without that. This is actually not possible in cold weather unless you have the curb idle WAY too high or the foot always on the gas and drive without stop and go until the engine is warm enough to maintain idle. Not my idea of daily driver. The engine can't idle without "fast idle" when cold.


That's why I already mentioned "Left foot on brake, right foot on throttle".

Idle speed is 'fairly' normal, although not super stable, but that's because the lopey idle the cam causes.
It takes a minute of keeping the engine running, then putting the transmission in Drive requires some braking and rightfoot control to not have it stall. Parallel 'un'-parking becomes a challenge.
Once you got the hang of it, you can drive off without much issues. After some 3-4 minutes already the engine runs good enough by itself.
But with the solid rollercam in the engine I still have to do 2-foot driving, mainly because of the stock stall convertor trying to constrain the engine's idle.

So I agree, this car is certainly not an easy, get-out and drive-off daily driver.
I see it more as a real man's car...



Edited by BigBlockMopar 2018-10-19 3:15 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
BigBlockMopar
Posted 2018-10-19 3:16 PM (#571988 - in reply to #571893)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Expert

Posts: 3492
20001000100100100100252525
Location: Netherlands
Here's an older videoclip from inside the car with the engine idling in Drive;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zexa9vfAm2M

Top of the page Bottom of the page
58coupe
Posted 2018-10-19 8:57 PM (#572006 - in reply to #571893)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Expert

Posts: 1283
1000100100252525
Location: Alaska
I will add my Fury with the rams was a stick shift so easier to drive away when cold. This was in Oregon summer and winter and driveability was not a problem.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Adventurer 60
Posted 2018-10-26 12:02 PM (#572402 - in reply to #571893)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Elite Veteran

Posts: 793
500100100252525
Location: tailFinland
I have experiences about ram induction from this summer when I finished my 300G resto. I got 272 degree camshaft, other vice is all stock everything rebuild and working.
When it works is the best forwardlook I have ever driven, and I have owned and driven many of them.
And it can be tuned working very nice, but then after a week you start it next time you may have all kinda issues and you have to tune it up again.
Hot weather and city traffic is bad, changing outside temperature and humidity -bad, (that is quite common in Finland), means you have to adjust cabs almost every time you hit the road.
I have also learned to dive left foot on brake right foot on throttle
Top of the page Bottom of the page
BigBlockMopar
Posted 2018-10-27 4:05 AM (#572445 - in reply to #571893)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Expert

Posts: 3492
20001000100100100100252525
Location: Netherlands
Long ram drivers are improved drivers! They can drive with 2 feet
The roller cam in my 496" is a CompCams-XR274R.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
finsruskw
Posted 2018-10-27 9:10 AM (#572454 - in reply to #571893)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Expert

Posts: 1829
100050010010010025
Location: Eastern Iowa
Can you guys get decent gas over there across the pond??
Here, I can only get 87 octane no lead w/o ethonal.

Although 91 is available nearby if one want's to pay the price.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-10-27 9:31 AM (#572455 - in reply to #572454)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5563
50005002525
Location: northern germany
finsruskw - 2018-10-27 9:10 AM

Can you guys get decent gas over there across the pond??
Here, I can only get 87 octane no lead w/o ethonal.

Although 91 is available nearby if one want's to pay the price.


Yes, at every Shell station, V-Power (100 octane). But it is very pricey.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
BigBlockMopar
Posted 2018-10-27 1:23 PM (#572478 - in reply to #571893)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Expert

Posts: 3492
20001000100100100100252525
Location: Netherlands
US octane ratings are different then European rating (RON & MON).

BP fuel is considered the best gasoline with their 98 octane. I agree with that, although I mostly drive on LPG with my daily '73 Dart.
We also have a number of 'Firezone' gasstations (Who came up with that name) which have Competition Plus 102 octane fuel.

Never checked what the octane is of V-power. I tend to skip the Shell-stations usually and go to BP stations.


In addition to that, the fuel we get here can easily be stored well over at least a year in a car without turning into an unburnable liquid like in the US.


Edited by BigBlockMopar 2018-10-27 1:26 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Handygun
Posted 2018-10-29 7:54 PM (#572589 - in reply to #571942)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions


Elite Veteran

Posts: 1083
1000252525
Location: STL, MO
Powerflite - 2018-10-18 9:34 PM

Here is my advice. I am doing the same thing, i.e. installing a cross ram system on a 413 in a '60 New Yorker. Even though I have a set of the correct exhaust manifolds, I am going to ditch them and install direct port injection. I will send the intakes to Wilson, who will weld & machine them for the injectors and make the fuel logs. Run them with a self-learning, dual throttle body system like FITech or FAST. Hide the throttle bodies under the original air cleaners. Then you can use whatever exhaust you want to , and you don't have to worry about any fuel issues at all. That's my plan.
This is what I was thinking on my G also. I have a 440 block and a 4.150 crank lying around, a 62 727 with a drum also. Talked to Rich Nedbal about it he thought it was an easy switch just buy a dual quad setup and extend the harness. I thought the FiTech was an old style TB where you didn't use P.I., it was all in the unit.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Powerflite
Posted 2018-10-29 9:00 PM (#572592 - in reply to #571893)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Expert

Posts: 4813
20002000500100100100
Location: So. California
The FiTech system would be the Go-Port Standalone. I don't see a dual quad option for it, but I would guess that they could do one, by using 2 of those throttle bodies and setting the computer to communicate. They do sell dual quad TB injection systems, so I would bet that they could make it work with port injection too. FAST doesn't advertise a dual quad port EFI system either, but I know that they do make one for it. Holley is another option, but I haven't looked into what they have available.

https://fitechefi.com/products/30014/
https://fitechefi.com/products/30061/

https://www.fuelairspark.com/ez-efi-2-0r-self-tuning-engine-control-...

Edited by Powerflite 2018-10-29 9:08 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
mstrug
Posted 2018-10-29 9:14 PM (#572595 - in reply to #571893)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5622
5000500100
Location: Newark, Texas (Fort Worth)
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fif-30062?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-...
ech-fuel-injection&gclid=CjwKCAjw39reBRBJEiwAO1m0ObUOLz5LBKWMhojCgpSaScvF8huoKZdri-OeKcp_8alFmp5oQOQqQhoCtyIQAvD_BwE
qQhoCtyIQAvD_BwE


https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fst-303002rb?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=p...
Top of the page Bottom of the page
60 dart
Posted 2018-10-29 11:43 PM (#572600 - in reply to #571893)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Expert 5K+

Posts: 8460
5000200010001001001001002525
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA
250-600 HP fitech is way less money------------------------------------------------later

https://www.ebay.com/itm/FiTech-30005-Easy-Street-EFI-600HP-Bolt-On-...

Edited by 60 dart 2018-10-29 11:44 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
BigBlockMopar
Posted 2018-10-30 3:24 PM (#572629 - in reply to #571893)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Expert

Posts: 3492
20001000100100100100252525
Location: Netherlands
But doesn't work nearly as good as port-injection, especially on a long ram system.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Handygun
Posted 2018-10-31 3:40 PM (#572685 - in reply to #571893)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions


Elite Veteran

Posts: 1083
1000252525
Location: STL, MO
If you were to port inject a set of Xrams would the sono effect be different?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
BigBlockMopar
Posted 2018-10-31 4:04 PM (#572688 - in reply to #571893)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Expert

Posts: 3492
20001000100100100100252525
Location: Netherlands
I would think not 'really'.
It's the air that reacts to the 'sound' pulses.

One could say by introducing the fuel way downstream, the incoming air would have less mass than if it was an air-mixture with fuel mist incorporated. But I doubt it matter much.
Every modern car engine today is using tuned intake lengths to benefit engine filling.


Edited by BigBlockMopar 2018-10-31 4:05 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-10-31 4:10 PM (#572690 - in reply to #572685)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5563
50005002525
Location: northern germany
Handygun - 2018-10-31 3:40 PM

If you were to port inject a set of Xrams would the sono effect be different?


No, but i question the "sono effect". I guess it is only a inertia thing. At least no one could explain to me what makes the "soundwaves" travel back and forth in the intake manifold. So at WOT, what makes the soundwaves travel back to the combustion chamber? The open aircleaner, the hood, the clouds or the end of the universe? And these "soundwaves" carry along the air/fuel mixture? I makes no sense to me but I'm eager to learn, if someone's willing to elaborate.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
mstrug
Posted 2018-10-31 5:08 PM (#572698 - in reply to #572600)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5622
5000500100
Location: Newark, Texas (Fort Worth)
60 dart - 2018-10-29 10:43 PM

250-600 HP fitech is way less money------------------------------------------------later

https://www.ebay.com/itm/FiTech-30005-Easy-Street-EFI-600HP-Bolt-On-...

That would be for 1/2 a system. Need 2 4 barrel throttle bodies.: $1589 for a married set: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fif-30062?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-...
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Powerflite
Posted 2018-10-31 5:10 PM (#572700 - in reply to #571893)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Expert

Posts: 4813
20002000500100100100
Location: So. California
Sid, it is a wave, so you need to think of it in those terms instead of just as mass flow. Think of a large ripple in water that is travelling from the piston, through the valve, out to the carb or throttle body, to the air cleaner, and then out. At each interface, this ripple will experience diffraction, and some of that ripple will be directed sideways & recombine to go backward as a reflection. Each of these reflections dissipates some of the flow momentum from the wave. The more smooth each interface is, the less disruption to this ripple that it will experience. You also have 8 different ripples combining in the plenum as they move out toward the throttle plates. The combination of the ripples should occur at optimum times & locations to prevent as much reflection as possible between them.

Edited by Powerflite 2018-10-31 5:11 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Handygun
Posted 2018-10-31 5:20 PM (#572702 - in reply to #571893)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions


Elite Veteran

Posts: 1083
1000252525
Location: STL, MO
I was thinking more of the moving column of air not being as dense but then I should have asked about Ram and not Sono. But good answers all and thanks.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
matador60
Posted 2018-10-31 7:00 PM (#572715 - in reply to #572702)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Regular

Posts: 70
2525
Location: Kansas City, Missouri
If you heat the manifolds with water from engine it takes care of
cold idle problem. I'am using two Fitech throttle bodies (one master
and one slave) on a 413. Mileage is from 10 to 15 normal driving.
Heavy foot and gearing make big difference. Have headers with
two and quarter exhaust. Will start by reaching in window on cold
morning, get in an drive away.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
BigBlockMopar
Posted 2018-10-31 7:03 PM (#572716 - in reply to #571893)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Expert

Posts: 3492
20001000100100100100252525
Location: Netherlands
Take a 6-7cm diameter open tube of about 1 to 1.5 meter long.
Quickly slap one open side of the tube with your flat hand and remove it just as quickly as you can.
The 'sound' you hear are the pulsewaves travelling up and down the tube, and they reverse as they reach the end of the tube each time.

The longer the tube, the 'lower' the soundfrequency. Hence tuning the intake length to the engine's proper rpm range where you want the wavepulses helping the incoming airmixture enter the cylinder.
The flat-hand-slap mimicks the intake valve closing.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-10-31 7:56 PM (#572722 - in reply to #571893)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5563
50005002525
Location: northern germany
Thanks for the explanations (different from what I read before), still does not make sense to me, as these pulses do not take any matter with them and how are the chances that the desirable length for the engines is exactly that where the only place for the carburetors is, like in 60/61 rams? I'm still saying, inertia.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
matador60
Posted 2018-11-01 8:24 PM (#572773 - in reply to #572722)
Subject: Re: Adding long rams questions



Regular

Posts: 70
2525
Location: Kansas City, Missouri
The exhaust does the same thing. Thats why you put headers on. Different size pipe
an different length for RPM.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page]
Jump to forum :
Search this forum
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread



(Delete all cookies set by this site)