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What is the definition of RARE
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Apollo 61
Posted 2018-10-29 2:38 PM (#572574)
Subject: What is the definition of RARE



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I'm just curious what is everyone's definition of the term RARE car is? Is it production numbers,odd options,survivor rate,big engines. OR?

Edited by Apollo 61 2018-10-29 2:40 PM
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mikes2nd
Posted 2018-10-29 3:04 PM (#572576 - in reply to #572574)
Subject: Re: What is the definition of RARE


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its dependent... If you ask a Camaro guy he will go "my camaro is rare its only 1 of 20000 with black on black!"..

I think FWL "Rare" is converts, high end wagons and specialty cars(D500's, Furys, Regal Lancers, 300's, Spring specials)... etc



Edited by mikes2nd 2018-10-29 3:05 PM
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slimwhitman
Posted 2018-10-29 3:51 PM (#572579 - in reply to #572574)
Subject: Re: What is the definition of RARE



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For me, rare has nothing to do with how many were built and everything to do with how many are left. A bottom line Plymouth 6cyl sedan might be just as rare today as a 300C Coupe. Both are rare today, even if only one was rare when new. What is the magic number to be rare? I don't know, but 200 (or fewer) remaining seems about right.
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1960fury
Posted 2018-10-29 4:02 PM (#572582 - in reply to #572574)
Subject: Re: What is the definition of RARE



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I can cruise for hours, days, weeks and months and never see a 57 Chevy or something from the 50s. Everything from the 50s is rare these days.
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-10-29 6:43 PM (#572586 - in reply to #572574)
Subject: Re: What is the definition of RARE



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People at car shows will always say, "When was the last time you saw one of those on the road?", or "There just aren't any of those driving around anymore". But those statements, even though they are true, don't really depict what rare really means. To me, rare means how hard is it to purchase one of them if you have sufficient money to get one at current market value. Market value is for projects and fully restored versions, both. If you really want a '58 New Yorker convertible and have $50K for a good project, how long does it take you to find any possibilities to build? If the answer is a very long indeterminate amount of time (which in this case it is!) then I would classify that car & model as currently being rare. Rare cars also are very difficult to create a fair market value for because of how unobtainable they are. So is a '58 NY vert project worth $20K, $30K, $50K, $80K? No one really knows because you may NEVER see a project come up for sale!! For mopars, rare is definitely better defined by the current availability rather than the original build numbers because of how many of them have been crushed. A '57 New Yorker vert is definitely more rare today than a 300D coupe even though the latter's build numbers were probably smaller originally. Another factor is how rare is it to find in the US vs. in Australia, Sweden, or anywhere else in the world. Rare can be location specific because of how expensive it is to transport & import them from one place to the next.
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bbrasse1
Posted 2018-10-29 7:23 PM (#572587 - in reply to #572574)
Subject: Re: What is the definition of RARE


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I think rare only matters to people who are trying to find a value (usually monetary) in something. If the intent is to resell rare has meaning. Most of us who bought a FL car because we liked it and spent a lot of money and sweat equity to build it back from scratch will never see a profit if we sold. Rare means there aren't many more and that makes me feel that I have something many don't have. Ok, so how many people want what I have? Maybe not many but I'm keeping what I have because I really like it and want to keep it so it doesn't matter anyway. I don't think I have seen a FL ad that didn't say the car was rare.
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-10-29 8:04 PM (#572590 - in reply to #572582)
Subject: Re: What is the definition of RARE



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1960fury - 2018-10-29 4:02 PM

I can cruise for hours, days, weeks and months and never see a 57 Chevy or something from the 50s. Everything from the 50s is rare these days.


Sid: That might be true in Germany but over here that is not the case. 57 Chevy's ARE NOT rare. There are always several at every open-make car show that is put on. Even black on black Bel Air Fuellie 2dr hardtops or Nomads are common (like 2 or 3 at a car show). Not so with older Mopars unless it is a show like "Mopar Madness" and even then they are few and far between.

http://www.moparsunlimited.net/mopar-madness-2017.html

http://www.moparsunlimited.net/mopar-madness-2018.html

As it happens, here is a photo from 2018 with me sitting in Bryon P's 56 D500 Coronet and a few more:





Edited by 56D500boy 2018-10-29 8:17 PM
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Mike McCandless
Posted 2018-10-29 8:53 PM (#572591 - in reply to #572574)
Subject: Re: What is the definition of RARE


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Anything sold on ebay, craigslist or auction is rare, just ask the seller.
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-10-29 9:04 PM (#572594 - in reply to #572574)
Subject: Re: What is the definition of RARE



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Very true.
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2018-10-30 1:01 AM (#572603 - in reply to #572586)
Subject: Re: What is the definition of RARE



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Powerflite - 2018-10-30 3:43 PM

People at car shows will always say, "When was the last time you saw one of those on the road?", or "There just aren't any of those driving around anymore". But those statements, even though they are true, don't really depict what rare really means. To me, rare means how hard is it to purchase one of them if you have sufficient money to get one at current market value. Market value is for projects and fully restored versions, both. If you really want a '58 New Yorker convertible and have $50K for a good project, how long does it take you to find any possibilities to build? If the answer is a very long indeterminate amount of time (which in this case it is!) then I would classify that car & model as currently being rare. Rare cars also are very difficult to create a fair market value for because of how unobtainable they are. So is a '58 NY vert project worth $20K, $30K, $50K, $80K? No one really knows because you may NEVER see a project come up for sale!! For mopars, rare is definitely better defined by the current availability rather than the original build numbers because of how many of them have been crushed. A '57 New Yorker vert is definitely more rare today than a 300D coupe even though the latter's build numbers were probably smaller originally. Another factor is how rare is it to find in the US vs. in Australia, Sweden, or anywhere else in the world. Rare can be location specific because of how expensive it is to transport & import them from one place to the next.


==================================

The above nails it. When one has ample cash to buy a specific
car, and none are forthcoming as available, chances are, that is a
rare car.

Value and personal attachment are entirely different subjects.
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57chizler
Posted 2018-10-30 1:09 PM (#572619 - in reply to #572590)
Subject: Re: What is the definition of RARE



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56D500boy - 2018-10-29 5:04 PM

1960fury - 2018-10-29 4:02 PM

I can cruise for hours, days, weeks and months and never see a 57 Chevy or something from the 50s. Everything from the 50s is rare these days.


Sid: That might be true in Germany but over here that is not the case. 57 Chevy's ARE NOT rare.


Yeah, observed "rarity" is a regional thing, some cars rarely seen in the rust belt of the U.S. are common on the West Coast and driven year round.
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57burb
Posted 2018-10-30 1:43 PM (#572622 - in reply to #572619)
Subject: Re: What is the definition of RARE



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It's getting rare to find anyone that gives a squat about old cars.
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1960fury
Posted 2018-10-30 4:21 PM (#572632 - in reply to #572622)
Subject: Re: What is the definition of RARE



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57burb - 2018-10-30 1:43 PM

It's getting rare to find anyone that gives a squat about old cars.


Good point, generation smart phone has taken over.
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60 dart
Posted 2018-10-30 4:30 PM (#572633 - in reply to #572574)
Subject: Re: What is the definition of RARE



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rare is a spiritual term used by chevrolet gurus --------------------------------------------later
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mikes2nd
Posted 2018-10-30 5:05 PM (#572636 - in reply to #572632)
Subject: Re: What is the definition of RARE


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1960fury - 2018-10-30 4:21 PM
57burb - 2018-10-30 1:43 PM It's getting rare to find anyone that gives a squat about old cars.
Good point, generation smart phone has taken over.

I dont know what universe you live in but its not anywhere close to what I see.

They cant afford old cars, they just buy a cheap daily driver, they dont have tools or a garage.

This "old car" game isnt cheap, many are doing the "rusty rat rod" because they dont have a spare 30-50k or 75k for a restoration.  Go to a rockabilly show, or rat rod show and its got alot of younger people.

The sit down in your chair concourse de elegance is not a young persons game..

The two best local car shows are pre 79 hot rod/rat rod shows.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTwC2b4czck

this show is 10 minutes from my house. its getting huge.  They doubled in size.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIwF0BH8QoU

 

 

 

 



Edited by mikes2nd 2018-10-30 5:20 PM
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bbrasse1
Posted 2018-10-30 5:49 PM (#572639 - in reply to #572574)
Subject: Re: What is the definition of RARE


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You make an excellent point. Whose buying our cars? I see a distinct change in programming on the few car shows out there. One classic car show and the rest is performance, 25 inch wheels and air ride hugging the ground. While some of us older people like what we saw as kids and young adults, I'm not certain there is a large group of young people wanting the same. Just scan the audience at the auctions. Other than the convertibles and 300 or letter cars I think the demand is shrinking. Cheaper Rat Rods, flat black with no chrome is king.
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1960fury
Posted 2018-10-30 8:34 PM (#572649 - in reply to #572574)
Subject: Re: What is the definition of RARE



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Yes, the smartphone generation is brainwashed and spoiled beyond repair. They think old engines and cars are all garbage and carburetors never worked. If they are interested in old cars, then only as an ego tool with gay new car drivetrains, 20"+ rims, new car interiors with bucket seats and huge speakers to play their rap "music". I'd rather see these cars rust away in dignity.
And please do not mention "Rockabillys" They are extinct. If I see these overtattooed, earringed, pierced monkey ***s, I vomit.

Edited by 1960fury 2018-10-30 8:40 PM
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Lancer Mike
Posted 2018-10-30 8:44 PM (#572652 - in reply to #572649)
Subject: Re: What is the definition of RARE



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here's an old thread on the subject

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=33341&posts=282&start=1

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mikes2nd
Posted 2018-10-30 9:13 PM (#572654 - in reply to #572649)
Subject: Re: What is the definition of RARE


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1960fury -. And please do not mention "Rockabillys" They are extinct. If I see these overtattooed, earringed, pierced monkey ***s, I vomit.

 

I will admit they are a bit "overdone" and painful to deal with. But the car shows are very different.  50% of the cars are not restored.   A "rat rod" really doesnt impress me but hey at least its not a chevelle, corvette or mustang

Its not really a rockabilly show, just old cars, many of them trashed or works in progress.  Like I said its just cool to see a bunch of different cars.

 

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Apollo 61
Posted 2018-10-30 11:23 PM (#572660 - in reply to #572622)
Subject: Re: What is the definition of RARE



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57burb - 2018-10-30 1:43 PM

It's getting rare to find anyone that gives a squat about old cars.
. I thought it was just me ,but I to have noticed a sharp decline in the interest of old cars in the next generation. I have three nephews who are not interested in cars I have asked this question with my many car buff friends any are telling me that there sons and daughters aren't not that interested in old cars?!?! My son (14) is not that interested in old cars? When I ask them what there interested in now days? Its technology and marijuana. I'm afraid that our hobby go the route of the model A in the futrue
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ram300
Posted 2018-10-30 11:55 PM (#572661 - in reply to #572574)
Subject: RE: What is the definition of RARE



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My opinion...

A rare car is one that was sold in very low numbers because of it's lack of desirability by the car buying public at the time of it's manufacture this was due to to being either to impractical, to expensive to buy or maintain, to unreliable , to exclusive , or just plain darn ugly / uncool........ or a combination of all of the above.

But somehow on eBay nowadays that seems to mean money in the bank.





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The Chrysler Kid
Posted 2018-10-31 6:45 PM (#572711 - in reply to #572574)
Subject: RE: What is the definition of RARE



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I know plenty of people my age that would also have Forward Look cars if it were economically feasible. Even more that are car people with excellent mechanical skills. But while they are extremely cool, the values of 50s American cars are hyper-inflated. Dollar for dollar it just makes a lot of sense for millennials to be building 350Z's, MX-5's, and S2000's. Maybe when the value bubble on these cars bursts or at least starts to decline like pre-war cars have. I do think 50s era cars will remain desireable to the masses longer than pre-war cars have though, just because they have been better represented in pop culture.
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Stroller
Posted 2018-11-03 10:48 AM (#572846 - in reply to #572574)
Subject: Re: What is the definition of RARE


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Hm. Well we know that chevy's and mudstains are not rare, just watch a Barret Jackson auction 1 after another and so on. I saw a super bird built on Grave Yard Cars, then agian the same car on Chasing Classic Cars. The owners admited they had the car built in order to sell. They want at least $1,000,000.00 for it. I wish them best of luck. Now there is guy up in canda that has 1 super bird in each color they were ever available in. I would say that's rare simply because of the collection, which he would sell only as the entire collection. If 2 cars are built and 1 survives I'd say that's rare. A Bugati concept car that was never built, and someone contracted it to be built, that is rare and more money than brains.

I agree I don't like rat rods they way they built now, low, loud and fast. It costs maybe 10x as much to put a car back to what it was rather than what it could have been or is not. When you see '29 model A rodded out they tend to have a chevy engine. And costs are kept low. If you can buy allready restored it is cheaper, costs less, if it has actually been restored. Now barn finds and survivers are in the loop. After all a car is only original once. How many cars now a days have stainless steel for trim? Is rare meaning simply that one of something has never been put up for sale and yet it exists? Where Ford and GM had productions numbers for models, Chrysler had them in maybe multiples. Not every car is worth a retirement fund either. We have seen vehicles that have boat loads of cash thrown at them to sell in low $20k's. Done an rated out interior lately?

Hagerty insurance has their "valuation tool". People think because they have the same car that went across the block in a Barret Jackson they have the same thing. No they don't. Look at what has been done to them. I have a '79 Lil Red. I know where it was built. It has a paint run on the cab below the rear window behind the drivers seat. The dome light lense is there, but nowere to put a bulb in. There is bolt in the right side rear of the bed just above the tail light light. It does nothing and is cross threaded and painted. Is this rare? My cars and trucks are rare simply because I own them and no one else does, like a bank.
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2018-11-03 12:56 PM (#572851 - in reply to #572846)
Subject: Re: What is the definition of RARE



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So, are the words "rare", "in-demand", "unavailable", and "expensive"
all interchangeable ?

I think not, but it seems to be common thinking in the old car scene
that they are. Giving this a little thought, I see parallels in other venues
of old junk/collectibles. Hmmm ....

Taken out of the venue of old cars and placed into say, ... antique glass
housewares .... a line of clear 1920's plates may have not sold well and
production cut after a short while, so few were made. At the start, they
were kind of "rare" for having few made, but no one cared.

Meanwhile, a similar line was made in pea**** blue. It sells well and is
made for a 5 year run. For every clear piece made, 1000 blue pieces were
made.

Add in 80 years of attrition and a collectors market coming on the scene,
and now the pea**** blue stuff is in high demand and hard to buy anywhere
but at auctions for high dollars, meanwhile the clear line is still boring to
most people and you cannot give the stuff away. The blue stuff was actually
saved in larger numbers, so today there is more surviving than the clear,
but it is not near as rare, in actual numbers than the clear, making the clear
"rare" and the blue in demand, unavailable, and by extension, expensive.

Both are rarely seen outside of glassware shows and other collector scene
venues, so to the uninvested observer, both must me "rare".
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drosera88
Posted 2018-11-12 3:20 PM (#573395 - in reply to #572574)
Subject: RE: What is the definition of RARE



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To me, FL's are 'rare' relative to all cars on the road, but just 'very uncommon' relative to contemporary cars at classic car shows, cruises, and salvage yards. You don't see many, but at a big show or cruise, you'll probably still come across couple. 

 

Relative to shows, I consider cars like Adventurers or 300 letter cars to be 'rare.' There are also cars that I'd consider almost to be made of unobtanium, on par with Chevy El Morroco's or 59 Cadillac Broughams in terms of scarcity, like a factory 61 New Yorker wagon with the dual carbs and long tube intake, an Adventurer with factory fuel injection, or a 56 Ghia limo. 

 

There's also FL's that are practically mythical who's numbers you can count on one hand or in some cases may no longer exist, like the Plymouth turbine specials or the 58 Dual Ghia 400 prototype. Of all the 'mythical' cars, the Exner designed Chrysler Norseman probably takes the cake with it being a one off prototype that was lost when the ocean liner it was on, the Andrea Doria, sank after colliding with another ship. 

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StillOutThere
Posted 2018-11-12 8:09 PM (#573419 - in reply to #572574)
Subject: Re: What is the definition of RARE



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"RARE" to me means few people bought them when new either because they were too expensive, poorly styled, under-engineered, the factory made few thinking no one wanted them anyhow, tooo MUCH performance, too LITTLE performance.
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miquelonbrad
Posted 2018-11-14 11:02 AM (#573498 - in reply to #572574)
Subject: RE: What is the definition of RARE



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My personal definition of "rare":



(IMG_1510sm.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments IMG_1510sm.jpg (181KB - 13 downloads)
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1960fury
Posted 2018-11-14 4:27 PM (#573525 - in reply to #572574)
Subject: Re: What is the definition of RARE



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Here is another case of "rare". One of one Anyway, I must admit I love 56 Chevy. Arm pads and shaver OE accessories! But I'm not buying the story about the upside down rear badges. Car had been repainted too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFEkFeXQQOU&index=3&list=LL0gdUx4gf2...
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Lancer Mike
Posted 2018-11-14 8:31 PM (#573544 - in reply to #573525)
Subject: Re: What is the definition of RARE



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Oh, and to answer the original question:

 

rare adj.  rarer; rar-est [ME, fr. L rarus]

1: marked by a wide separation of component particles ; THIN (-air

2: a: marked by a unusual quality, merit, or appeal : DISTINCTIVE b: superlative or extreme of its kind

3: seldom occurring or found UNCOMMON

syn see CHOICE, INFREQUENT - rareness  n.

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Powerflite
Posted 2018-11-14 11:05 PM (#573551 - in reply to #572574)
Subject: Re: What is the definition of RARE



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I prefer well done to rare.
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-11-14 11:15 PM (#573552 - in reply to #573551)
Subject: Re: What is the definition of RARE



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Powerflite - 2018-11-14 11:05 PM

I prefer well done to rare.



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Nathan says "Please remember to tip the waitresses"

Edited by 56D500boy 2018-11-14 11:16 PM
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