The Forward Look Network
The Forward Look Network
Search | Statistics | User Listing Forums | Chat | eBay | Calendars | Albums | Skins | Language
You are logged in as a guest. ( logon | register )

Question for the electricians
Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page]
View previous thread :: View next thread
   Forward Look Technical Discussions -> Electrical, Battery and ChargingMessage format
 
1960fury
Posted 2018-11-04 2:09 PM (#572898)
Subject: Question for the electricians



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5576
5000500252525
Location: northern germany
I changed the heavy parking brake drum to disk some time ago (after some frustrating experience with the Wilwood parking "brake") and installed a warning buzzer along with it. The problem is, it sounds as soon as I switch the ignition on, with the parking brake pushed. This is very annoying and I would like to change that, so that it alarms only when a drive button is engaged.
I could fabricate some ground switch behind the push button mechanism but it would be easier to use the oe neutral switch to achieve that. Problem is, of course, it gets ground only when the N-button is engaged. I need it the other way around. So is a circuit breaker relay (?), activated when the N-button is pushed, advisable? It would draw current all the time with the ignition on and either drive button pushed, right?

Edited by 1960fury 2018-11-04 2:14 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Old Ray
Posted 2018-11-04 2:39 PM (#572902 - in reply to #572898)
Subject: Re: Question for the electricians



Extreme Veteran

Posts: 317
100100100
Location: Invermere B.C. Canada - Rocky Mountains
A relay can be switched on the ground side, so that would complete the circuit and sound the buzzer, in neutral as a reminder, when you start it, but that's not what you want. I think there is a combination of relays that would use that ground to activate another relay to turn on the buzzer in everything but neutral. I don't know how to do that, but I ran across a relay multi-usage sheet (many mind numbing pages) that I saved, I could send them or the web address to you?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-11-04 2:50 PM (#572904 - in reply to #572898)
Subject: Re: Question for the electricians



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11631
50005000100050010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
One switching relay (NC/NC) using the neutral switch as ground - meaning that the relay pulls with the N-button pressed in and open one of the NC contacts, hence no buzzer. when any gear is selected, the relay will trip to the other NC contact and here you connect the buzzer only.


The eventual parking brake light should be working independingly of the buzzer/relay circuit

For example https://www.electrokit.com/produkt/rela-12v-30a-vaxlande/?gclid=EAIa...
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-11-04 3:10 PM (#572906 - in reply to #572898)
Subject: Re: Question for the electricians



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5576
5000500252525
Location: northern germany
Yes, I have the factory warning light (I just connected a small buzzer, that is very loud, to it). It lights directly above/towards the release handle, nice, but too low (I even managed to drive away with light AND buzzer noise). I could easily isolate the ground switch from the light and run a wire towards another ground source, like a switch (not so easy) behind the button assy that gives ground only with a drive-button engaged, but a relay activated by the neutral safety switch would be easier. So does it draw current all the time, with igniton on, to cut out the connection?

Edited by 1960fury 2018-11-04 3:15 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-11-04 3:38 PM (#572910 - in reply to #572898)
Subject: Re: Question for the electricians



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11631
50005000100050010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Yes, the relay will draw current with ignition on and the pushbutton in N, but the relay will not draw current with any of the gears engaged.

You can chose to have the parking brake light activated i N only and the buzzer activated in any gear or both the light and the buzzer with just one switching relay, buth with light and buzzer you wont have either in N, only both in any gear.


For full flexibility, intall a second park brake switch


Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-11-04 4:22 PM (#572913 - in reply to #572898)
Subject: Re: Question for the electricians



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5576
5000500252525
Location: northern germany
Okay, stupid me... Electricity.... Thanks alot.

Would this be the right one?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/TR93F-12VDC-SC-C-Coil-PCB-Mount-Electromagn...

Edited by 1960fury 2018-11-04 4:46 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2018-11-04 5:54 PM (#572917 - in reply to #572913)
Subject: Re: Question for the electricians



Expert

Posts: 3845
2000100050010010010025
Location: Lower Mainland BC
1960fury - 2018-11-04 4:22 PM

Would this be the right one?


Not necessarily. 85 and 86 are the trigger signal (12V) in and out (ground), 30 is the constant power (12V available all the time). 87 and 87a are the receivers of the 12V from 30 when 85/85 are activated. What I can't tell is whether that particular relay is an alternate 87 normally but 87a when triggered. Not sure if that is what you want/need.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-11-04 7:33 PM (#572923 - in reply to #572917)
Subject: Re: Question for the electricians



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5576
5000500252525
Location: northern germany
56D500boy - 2018-11-04 5:54 PM

1960fury - 2018-11-04 4:22 PM

Would this be the right one?


Not necessarily. 85 and 86 are the trigger signal (12V) in and out (ground), 30 is the constant power (12V available all the time). 87 and 87a are the receivers of the 12V from 30 when 85/85 are activated. What I can't tell is whether that particular relay is an alternate 87 normally but 87a when triggered. Not sure if that is what you want/need.



Need one that cuts current (87) constantly when triggered.

Edited by 1960fury 2018-11-04 7:34 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
Posted 2018-11-04 8:34 PM (#572935 - in reply to #572923)
Subject: Re: Question for the electricians


Regular

Posts: 91
252525
Location: Locked in my Canadian garage....
1960fury - 2018-11-04 7:33 PM

56D500boy - 2018-11-04 5:54 PM

1960fury - 2018-11-04 4:22 PM

Would this be the right one?


Not necessarily. 85 and 86 are the trigger signal (12V) in and out (ground), 30 is the constant power (12V available all the time). 87 and 87a are the receivers of the 12V from 30 when 85/85 are activated. What I can't tell is whether that particular relay is an alternate 87 normally but 87a when triggered. Not sure if that is what you want/need.



Need one that cuts current (87) constantly when triggered.


The relay above has 87 as normally open contacts, it would be continuously on if constantly triggered. 87A are the normally closed contacts, that would cut current if constantly triggered.....
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-11-04 8:53 PM (#572937 - in reply to #572898)
Subject: Re: Question for the electricians



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5576
5000500252525
Location: northern germany
Thanks, but it is #TR93F, the type in Wizards link. Can someone tell me the # for the relay I need? Closed working circuit without trigger signal. If I search for NC relays, they all have the same schematic, like TR93F, and that looks like normaly closed. ?

Edited by 1960fury 2018-11-04 9:09 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2018-11-04 9:17 PM (#572938 - in reply to #572937)
Subject: Re: Question for the electricians



Expert

Posts: 3845
2000100050010010010025
Location: Lower Mainland BC
1960fury - 2018-11-04 8:53 PM

Thanks, but it is #TR93F, the type in Wizards link. Can someone tell me the # for the relay I need? Closed working circuit without trigger signal.


Okay. I wasn't sure what you wanted to do. Now I (think I) understand. Indeed you need/want a 5 pin relay:

Like this: https://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/change-over-relay-12v-30a.html

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vupmb2U-shk

From the source linked below:

Terminal numbering convention:

"The terminal numberings found on a relay body are taken from DIN 72552 which is a German automotive industry standard that has been widely adopted and allocates a numeric code to various types of electrical terminals found in vehicles. The terminals on the outside of a 4 or 5 pin mini relay are marked with numbers as shown below:



Terminal/
Pin number ......Connection
85.....................Coil
86.................... Coil
87...................Normally Open (NO)
87a...................Normally Closed (NC) - not present on 4 pin relays
30....................Common connection to NO & NC terminals

According to DIN 72552 the coil should be fed with +12V to terminal 86 and grounded via terminal 85, however in practice it makes no difference which way around they are wired, unless you are using a relay with an integrated diode (see more info on diodes below).

Tip: you can use a changeover relay in place of a make & break relay by just leaving either the NO or NC terminal disconnected (depending on whether you want the circuit to be made or broken when you energise the relay).

Terminal layouts

The automotive ISO mini relays we have been looking at above are typically available in two types of pin layout designated Type A and Type B layouts. These layouts are shown on the two 5-pin relays below (pin 87a not present on 4 pin relays):



You will notice that on the Type B layout pins 86 and 30 are swapped over compared with the Type A layout. The Type B layout is arguably easier to work with as the connected terminals are in-line, making the wiring easier to visualise. If you need to replace a relay make sure you use one with the same terminal layout as it is easy to overlook if you're not aware of the difference."

REFERENCE: https://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/relay-guide.html



Edited by 56D500boy 2018-11-04 9:22 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-11-05 3:40 AM (#572947 - in reply to #572938)
Subject: Re: Question for the electricians



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11631
50005000100050010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Sid, I Think I have a relay in the garage - if so, I'll check the consumption and the Connections.....
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-11-05 8:10 AM (#572958 - in reply to #572947)
Subject: Re: Question for the electricians



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11631
50005000100050010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Ok, I found the relay in my garage, just like the one in my link.

The current draw is 0,95 ohm which would approximately 0,18A - which is negligible since the relay will only draw current with;

Criteria 1 Ignition on

Criteria 2 Pushbutton i N


The connection shall be like this;

Relay pin 30 to 12VDC connection (practically battery positive, fused)
Relay pin 85 to neutral starter switch (his wire is also present on the starter relay)
Relay pin 86 to "ignition on" 12VDC (on your ignition lock, must be fused)
Relay pin 87a to parking brake warning light
Relay pin 87 to buzzer


Function:

With the ignition lock in the "ON" position and the neutral starter switch is grounded (pushbutton in neutral) the coil is activated and
the relay contacts 30 and 87a are closed and the parking brake light will light up.

When any gear pushbutton is pushed in, the coil will be deactivated and the relay contacts 30 and 87 are closed and the buzzer will be activated, but the parking brake light will be deactivated. In this condition, there will be no current draw from the relay coil.


This will give you the parking brake warning light if the parking brake pedal is pushed down, as soon as you put your car in any gear, with the parking brake still activated, the buzzer will be activated.


Hint, you could connect a second park brake warning light to the buzzer and then have both buzzer and ligh as a warning

Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-11-05 8:41 AM (#572960 - in reply to #572898)
Subject: Re: Question for the electricians



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5576
5000500252525
Location: northern germany
Thanks for the help!!! I think I can live with no parking brake light in neutral, only when a drive button is pressed. Thanks again.

Edited by 1960fury 2018-11-05 3:07 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-11-05 8:52 AM (#572961 - in reply to #572958)
Subject: Re: Question for the electricians



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5576
5000500252525
Location: northern germany

wizard - 2018-11-05 8:10 AM



Function:

With the ignition lock in the "ON" position and the neutral starter switch is grounded (pushbutton in neutral) the coil is activated and
the relay contacts 30 and 87a are closed and the parking brake light will light up.

When any gear pushbutton is pushed in, the coil will be deactivated and the relay contacts 30 and 87 are closed and the buzzer will be activated, but the parking brake light will be deactivated. In this condition, there will be no current draw from the relay coil.







Okay, I just read that again. I know now the type of relay I need (I hope) but this I do not understand. When the starter switch is grounded (neutral) the coil is activated and the circuit is cut, so the parking light will NOT light up.

When I push any button but neutral the coil is deactivated (no ground), the circuit is closed and the parking brake light AND buzzer ARE ACTIVATED, IF they get ground (parking brake pushed). So buzzer AND light with a drive button pressed and parking brake on.

Not?





Edited by 1960fury 2018-11-05 8:59 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-11-05 9:06 AM (#572962 - in reply to #572898)
Subject: Re: Question for the electricians



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11631
50005000100050010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
No Sid, there will be a closed circuit between 30 and 87a with the coil activated (ignition+N) but NO buzzer

When you push any gear button, the relay trips (coil deactivated) there will be a closed circuit between 30 and 87 and the buzzer will sound, but NO light.


This will be what I think the easiest way of acheiving what you want and, as I wrote above, if you connect a second brake warning light to the buzzer, then you'll have both the second brake warning light and the buzzer active in any gear. (the original brake warning light will not be active)


Practically, this type of trip relays are used as head light relays; dipped beam or high beam so the logic function is OR in this case


Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-11-05 9:26 AM (#572965 - in reply to #572898)
Subject: Re: Question for the electricians



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5576
5000500252525
Location: northern germany
Okay, obviously I'm not an electrician, BUT, if I use a normally closed relay (power ON with any button but "N") why isn't it possible then to activate both buzzer and light when the circuit is closed (relay not activated, any drive button pressed)? Maybe we are talking about the wrong relay?

Edited by 1960fury 2018-11-05 9:28 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-11-05 10:14 AM (#572968 - in reply to #572898)
Subject: Re: Question for the electricians



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11631
50005000100050010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
You could have it that way as well Sid, but then you'll have no light when the neutral and ignition is on. In my 60 Chrysler, there's no other indication that the ignition is on but the parking brake light (if one waits, the tank gauge will go up)

For both the parking brake light AND the buzzer WITH any gear selected BUT N;

Criteria 1 Ignition on

Criteria 2 Pushbutton i N


The connection shall be like this;

Relay pin 30 to 12VDC connection (practically battery positive, fused)
Relay pin 85 to neutral starter switch (his wire is also present on the starter relay)
Relay pin 86 to "ignition on" 12VDC (on your ignition lock, must be fused)
Relay pin 87a to nothing (or a second park brake warning light)
Relay pin 87 to buzzer AND parking brake warning light


If it happened that you drove away with both the light and the buzzer, then I would install a second small LED somewhere high (lighting up with the buzzer), perhaps under the speaker grille (strong LED) or somewhere squezed in between the windlace and the A-pillar bezel.


My guess is that the stereo is blasting out good ol Rock N' Roll and your eyes are on the road
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-11-05 12:32 PM (#572983 - in reply to #572898)
Subject: Re: Question for the electricians



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11631
50005000100050010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Came to Think about it Sid, if you never going to put some more load over the relay than 1-2 bulbs (LED's) and the buzzer, then you could skip one wire and one fuse;

The connection shall be like this;

Relay pin 30 to relay pin 86 (bridge)
Relay pin 85 to neutral starter switch (his wire is also present on the starter relay)
Relay pin 86 to "ignition on" 12VDC (on your ignition lock, must be fused)
Relay pin 87a to nothing (or a second park brake warning light)
Relay pin 87 to buzzer AND parking brake warning light


The function will be that when you switch on the ignition, the current goes to pin 86 and bridges over to pin 30 (normal 12DC feed).


You can do this with either of the functions for buzzer/light described above….
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-11-05 1:45 PM (#572986 - in reply to #572898)
Subject: Re: Question for the electricians



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5576
5000500252525
Location: northern germany
Thanks, here is how I planed to wire it.

30 and 86, 87 12V with ignition on. (not sure about the 30, if its actually needed)

85 (ground side trigger current) to Neutral safety switch (when grounded relay triggered, opens 86/85 and cuts current. Drive button pushed, relay w/o ground closes 86/85, activates light/buzzer)

87A (ground side working current) to warning light AND buzzer.

That way the buzzer and light are activated only when a drive button is pressed and the parking brake applied. Can you OK that?


Edited by 1960fury 2018-11-05 1:59 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-11-05 1:46 PM (#572987 - in reply to #572968)
Subject: Re: Question for the electricians



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5576
5000500252525
Location: northern germany
wizard - 2018-11-05 10:14 AM


If it happened that you drove away with both the light and the buzzer, then I would install a second small LED somewhere high (lighting up with the buzzer), perhaps under the speaker grille (strong LED) or somewhere squezed in between the windlace and the A-pillar bezel.


My guess is that the stereo is blasting out good ol Rock N' Roll and your eyes are on the road
;)


How did you know?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-11-05 2:41 PM (#572995 - in reply to #572898)
Subject: Re: Question for the electricians



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11631
50005000100050010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
30 is the 12VDC Power feed Sid, this goes out on 87 OR 87a

85 is the ground and 86 is the 12VDC that eccitates the relay coil.

Follow one of my suggestions.


I know because the stereo is the 2nd thing that goes on


Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-11-05 3:04 PM (#572997 - in reply to #572995)
Subject: Re: Question for the electricians



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5576
5000500252525
Location: northern germany
wizard - 2018-11-05 2:41 PM

30 is the 12VDC Power feed Sid, this goes out on 87 OR 87a

85 is the ground and 86 is the 12VDC that eccitates the relay coil.

Follow one of my suggestions.


I know because the stereo is the 2nd thing that goes on


:cool:


According to the German numbers system 87 is the "Eingang Arbeitsstromkreis" (inlet working current, the current that operates the warning light and buzzer in this case) and 87A is the "Ausgang Arbeitsstromkreis" (outlet working current). 86 is the "Eingang Steuerstromkreis" (inlet trigger circuit). 85 is the outlet (ground) "Steuerstromkreis" (trigger circuit). Maybe I remember that wrong. Okay, we will see. Thanks!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2018-11-05 4:06 PM (#573004 - in reply to #572898)
Subject: Re: Question for the electricians



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 11631
50005000100050010025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Sid look at the realy in my link and on the first Picture Dave posted - theres a schematic printed on the relay…


There you can see clearly that 30 is the Power feed (input)

85 and 86 is the connections for the relay coil (85 ground and 86 12VDC (doesn't really matter if you switch those ones)
87a is the resting NC contact
87 is the switching Contact.

Get a relay and do a bench test - then it will be all clear
Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-11-05 4:28 PM (#573006 - in reply to #572898)
Subject: Re: Question for the electricians



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5576
5000500252525
Location: northern germany
Yes, 30 is power feed, never denied that Just what you postet, that 30 goes out on 87, didn't make sense to me. OK, will do a bench test first. Thanks.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
Posted 2018-11-05 5:44 PM (#573008 - in reply to #572938)
Subject: Re: Question for the electricians


Regular

Posts: 91
252525
Location: Locked in my Canadian garage....
The TR93F relay first posted is a "five pin relay".

The coil is pulled in by control voltage, positive 12 volt signal and a ground if it's a relay with a 12 volt coil. Terminals 85/86

The remaining three terminals are 30, which is the "common" in, it can be 12 volt power source or whatever wire that is being controlled. The 87/87A contacts are either normally open- not connected- or normally closed- continuity with common when relay not energized. The contacts flip when coil is energized. Normally open contacts connect and normally closed contacts open. Easy...?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2018-11-05 7:07 PM (#573011 - in reply to #573006)
Subject: Re: Question for the electricians



Expert

Posts: 3845
2000100050010010010025
Location: Lower Mainland BC
1960fury - 2018-11-05 4:28 PM

Yes, 30 is power feed, never denied that Just what you postet, that 30 goes out on 87, didn't make sense to me. OK, will do a bench test first. Thanks.


I presume that you didn't watch the video that I linked you to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vupmb2U-shk

Top of the page Bottom of the page
1960fury
Posted 2018-11-05 8:03 PM (#573015 - in reply to #573011)
Subject: Re: Question for the electricians



Expert 5K+

Posts: 5576
5000500252525
Location: northern germany
56D500boy - 2018-11-05 7:07 PM

1960fury - 2018-11-05 4:28 PM

Yes, 30 is power feed, never denied that Just what you postet, that 30 goes out on 87, didn't make sense to me. OK, will do a bench test first. Thanks.


I presume that you didn't watch the video that I linked you to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vupmb2U-shk

:)


Yes Problem was I never really looked at the schematic too, just the online Information, that calls 87 "inlet working current" which makes no sense to me. 30 should be called inlet working current and 87 outlet. Other thing, I was linked to a 5 pin relay that works both ways, NC/NO even tough I only need a 4 pin? Along with other confusing info. (Read my question in Message 572961, I was given a no for that) Very simple actually, just bought a 4 pin NC relay. Thanks.

Edited by 1960fury 2018-11-05 8:46 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page]
Jump to forum :
Search this forum
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread



(Delete all cookies set by this site)