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Seeking Photos of the rear engine/transmission cross-member mounting ears
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56D500boy
Posted 2019-01-06 8:20 PM (#576377)
Subject: Seeking Photos of the rear engine/transmission cross-member mounting ears



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For a 55 or 56 Plymouth and/or Dodge and maybe Desoto?

I was out furthering my investigations of a PF to TF conversion and knowing that I would have to move the mount to the rear by about 4", I was trying to figure out how the rear engine/transmission mount cross-member mounted to the frame.

From what I have figured out, there are "ears" welded to the frame (one on each side) to which the cross-member is bolted. I looked through my chassis photos (from other people) and I can sort of see what is going on but I am hoping that somebody could post a detailed photo of the "ears" with the cross-member removed.

This is what I have so far:





(56DodgePowerFliteRearTransMount_PassengerSideFromRear.jpg)



(56DodgePowerFliteRearTransMount_DriversSideFromRear.jpg)



(56DodgePowerFliteRearTransMount_DriversSideFromFront.jpg)



(1955PlymouthChassis_4.jpg)



(56LaFemmeD500BodyOffChassis_WithRearEngineMountRemoved.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments 56DodgePowerFliteRearTransMount_PassengerSideFromRear.jpg (137KB - 51 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgePowerFliteRearTransMount_DriversSideFromRear.jpg (189KB - 52 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgePowerFliteRearTransMount_DriversSideFromFront.jpg (179KB - 54 downloads)
Attachments 1955PlymouthChassis_4.jpg (245KB - 49 downloads)
Attachments 56LaFemmeD500BodyOffChassis_WithRearEngineMountRemoved.jpg (164KB - 52 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2019-01-13 8:47 PM (#576743 - in reply to #576377)
Subject: RE: Seeking Photos of the rear engine/transmission cross-member mounting ears



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Today, while trying to find info about 56 Plymouth Convertible body mounts for someone here, I bumped into a section in the 55-58 Mopar parts catalogue that I did not know was there. It has some diagrams that get me closer to knowing what I will need to move the trans mount back when I (eventually) install the longer Torqueflite transmission in my 56 Dodge.

BUT I am still hoping for real photos.

This is what I found:



(TransmissionMountRevisions_1.jpg)



(TransmissionMountRevisions_2.jpg)



(TransmissionMountDetail_1.jpg)



(TransmissionMountDetail_2.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments TransmissionMountRevisions_1.jpg (131KB - 51 downloads)
Attachments TransmissionMountRevisions_2.jpg (102KB - 46 downloads)
Attachments TransmissionMountDetail_1.jpg (81KB - 46 downloads)
Attachments TransmissionMountDetail_2.jpg (68KB - 46 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2019-01-14 11:41 AM (#576767 - in reply to #576743)
Subject: RE: Seeking Photos of the rear engine/transmission cross-member mounting ears



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56D500boy - 2019-01-13 8:47 PM

BUT I am still hoping for real photos.



Ralf N. from Finland was nice enough to send me a couple of photos of his beautiful 56 Dodge Coronet chassis from when he was doing a body-off restoration back in 2010. I can at least see the support better. (Thanks Ralf)





(RalfNFromFinlandsBeautiful56CoronetChassis_1.jpg)



(RalfNFromFinlandsBeautiful56CoronetChassis_2.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments RalfNFromFinlandsBeautiful56CoronetChassis_1.jpg (239KB - 47 downloads)
Attachments RalfNFromFinlandsBeautiful56CoronetChassis_2.jpg (221KB - 44 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2019-01-15 1:31 AM (#576801 - in reply to #576767)
Subject: RE: Seeking Photos of the rear engine/transmission cross-member mounting ears



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Never mind. Based on Ralf N's photo, I've figured it out how to make new mounting ears for the transmission cross member: out of three pieces, i.e. two side pieces and one top piece with the mirror-image sides welded to the top piece. Biggest issue would be bending the lip on the side pieces.

See attached. I could easily mock the "ear" up in cardboard to test the theory.





(MountEarsDetail_Annotated_small.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments MountEarsDetail_Annotated_small.jpg (173KB - 44 downloads)
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finsruskw
Posted 2019-01-15 9:47 AM (#576809 - in reply to #576377)
Subject: Re: Seeking Photos of the rear engine/transmission cross-member mounting ears



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Dave, I still have the frame section and the X member from the 57 you got the trans from.
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56D500boy
Posted 2019-01-15 11:52 AM (#576815 - in reply to #576809)
Subject: Re: Seeking Photos of the rear engine/transmission cross-member mounting ears



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finsruskw - 2019-01-15 9:47 AM
Dave, I still have the frame section and the X member from the 57 you got the trans from.


Thanks Dave. The 57-58 cross-member/mounts are different than the 55-56 mounts because of the torsion bar mounting requirements:







(57-58TransmissionMountDiagram.jpg)



(frame58desoto.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments 57-58TransmissionMountDiagram.jpg (118KB - 49 downloads)
Attachments frame58desoto.jpg (211KB - 42 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2019-01-15 12:26 PM (#576818 - in reply to #576801)
Subject: RE: Seeking Photos of the rear engine/transmission cross-member mounting ears



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56D500boy - 2019-01-15 1:31 AM I could easily mock the "ear" up in cardboard to test the theory.




If only 1/4" steel bent like cardboard and I had a welder, not a hot glue gun.

The next mock-up would be based on measurements, not just eyeballing.

Edited by 56D500boy 2019-01-15 12:29 PM




(56DodgeTransmissionCrossMemberMountingEarMockUp_1.jpg)



(56DodgeTransmissionCrossMemberMountingEarMockUp_2.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments 56DodgeTransmissionCrossMemberMountingEarMockUp_1.jpg (138KB - 46 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgeTransmissionCrossMemberMountingEarMockUp_2.jpg (114KB - 44 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2019-03-26 8:25 PM (#579953 - in reply to #576818)
Subject: RE: Seeking Photos of the rear engine/transmission cross-member mounting ears



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56D500boy - 2019-01-15 9:26 AM
The next mock-up would be based on measurements, not just eyeballing.


I decided that I could not reproduce the factory ears per se. Instead, I went to the "Metals Supermarket" (tm) (a real place) with the cross member and tried a few square tubes that looked like they could be cut to slip over the cross member (or in reality, that the cross member could slip UP into the tubing). I chose 3" x 3" x 3/16" tubing since the next size down was too small and 1/4" thick was too thick. I also purchased some 6" wide x 3/16" hot rolled bar stock to make the end plates for mounting the ears to the inside of the car frame.

Talking to my fabricator neighbour we decided that the end plates (with the new "ears" welded to the plate) could be fastened to the frame with nutserts and bolts and, if I felt the need, an inch or so of welding "stitching" added to each edge of the end plates (on both sides of the car) (to be determined).

Here are the new ears that I cut from the 3" x 3" tubing today. I have to decide whether to leave them 6" long or cut them down to something like 5".

There is likely to be a spacer washer tacked to the inside of the ears (two per ear, one side) in order to make the fit better.




Edited by 56D500boy 2019-03-26 8:28 PM




(56DodgeTransmissionCrossMemberWithTrimmed3x3TubingEarsAndWeaponsOfMassDestructionUsed.jpg)



(56DodgeTransmissionCrossMemberWithTrimmed3x3TubingEarsPlacedOntoTheCrossMember.jpg)



(56DodgeTransmissionCrossMemberWithOneOfTheTrimmed3x3TubingEars.jpg)



(56DodgeTransmissionCrossMemberWithTheOtherTrimmed3x3TubingEar.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments 56DodgeTransmissionCrossMemberWithTrimmed3x3TubingEarsAndWeaponsOfMassDestructionUsed.jpg (227KB - 29 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgeTransmissionCrossMemberWithTrimmed3x3TubingEarsPlacedOntoTheCrossMember.jpg (231KB - 31 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgeTransmissionCrossMemberWithOneOfTheTrimmed3x3TubingEars.jpg (110KB - 32 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgeTransmissionCrossMemberWithTheOtherTrimmed3x3TubingEar.jpg (130KB - 29 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2019-03-26 11:23 PM (#579962 - in reply to #579953)
Subject: Conflicts between the new cross member and the rear brake line



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Took the "new" cross member out to the garage, jacked up the driver's side (on the frame), put an jack stand under the frame and shimmied under the car with the "new" cross member to trial it in place. The good news is I was able maneuver the cross member into place without any problems with the exhaust system (this is a good thing).

I could only get it as close as the existing cross member, i.e. about 4" back from the current location. I think that I only need to move it back 3" so there might be an issue with the mounting plate on the forward side. We'll see.

Then I trialed it for left to right distances. Looks like I have about 1 inch (maybe 1.25") to play with.

Then I noticed (or re-noticed that there might be an issue with the brake line. I think that the mounting plate will "slip" behind the brake line. If not the brake line will have to be recontoured (i.e. bent) to clear the new cross member mounting plate. At worst, I will need to install a new brake line. Oh no!! (LOL).

This is the situation that I discovered:



Edited by 56D500boy 2019-03-27 1:48 AM




(New56DodgeTransCrossMemberAndConflictWithRearBrakeLine_1.jpg)



(New56DodgeTransCrossMemberAndConflictWithRearBrakeLine_2.jpg)



(New56DodgeTransCrossMemberAndConflictWithRearBrakeLine_3.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments New56DodgeTransCrossMemberAndConflictWithRearBrakeLine_1.jpg (109KB - 29 downloads)
Attachments New56DodgeTransCrossMemberAndConflictWithRearBrakeLine_2.jpg (178KB - 35 downloads)
Attachments New56DodgeTransCrossMemberAndConflictWithRearBrakeLine_3.jpg (160KB - 36 downloads)
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60 Imp
Posted 2019-03-27 4:28 PM (#579997 - in reply to #576377)
Subject: RE: Seeking Photos of the rear engine/transmission cross-member mounting ears


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Location: North Australia
Dave, did you consider modifying the cross member instead of moving the 'mounting ears'? By this I mean cutting the member where the box mounts and plating it with the holes in the new position.

This might be a better/easier solution for you.

Steve.
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56D500boy
Posted 2019-03-27 4:48 PM (#579998 - in reply to #579997)
Subject: RE: Seeking Photos of the rear engine/transmission cross-member mounting ears



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60 Imp - 2019-03-27 1:28 PM

Dave, did you consider modifying the cross member instead of moving the 'mounting ears'? By this I mean cutting the member where the box mounts and plating it with the holes in the new position.
This might be a better/easier solution for you.
Steve.


Thanks Steve. I am looking for easier solutions but one of my criteria is that this conversion by completely reversible, i.e. the original cross member mounting ears stay in place, no mods.

The main issue with the TorqueFlite is the size of the transmission oil pan. It would literally bump into the existing cross member unless the cross member was moved back or significantly modified. I think that modification would be a big section cut out of the middle of the cross member and an a big "U" fabricated that would attach to and cantilever rearwards for the cut cross member. It would be twisty and springy unless some serious metals was involved. Probably easier to stick with Plan A.

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Ev's62Chrysler
Posted 2019-03-27 6:48 PM (#580003 - in reply to #576377)
Subject: Re: Seeking Photos of the rear engine/transmission cross-member mounting ears



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Have you thought about acquiring another cross member (to save the original) and sectioned it 3/8" about ~5" from each end? Then weld 3/8" X 3" X 6" or however long to each of the end pieces and weld the center section however far offset was required. That way you could retain your existing mounts, get around your brake line, avoid issues with trans pan, and revert back whenever you wanted. You don't have far to move it, and the engine mounts will handle the majority of the torque anyway. Plus, no welding underneath the car.
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56D500boy
Posted 2019-03-28 3:34 PM (#580035 - in reply to #580003)
Subject: Re: Seeking Photos of the rear engine/transmission cross-member mounting ears



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Ev's62Chrysler - 2019-03-27 3:48 PM

Have you thought about acquiring another cross member (to save the original) and sectioned it 3/8" about ~5" from each end? Then weld 3/8" X 3" X 6" or however long to each of the end pieces and weld the center section however far offset was required. That way you could retain your existing mounts, get around your brake line, avoid issues with trans pan, and revert back whenever you wanted. You don't have far to move it, and the engine mounts will handle the majority of the torque anyway. Plus, no welding underneath the car.


I'm not sure if I follow what you are saying. I already have a 2nd cross member (the black painted one in the photos). I think what you are trying to suggest is the same as my "U" idea (??). Sketches would be handy.

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Ev's62Chrysler
Posted 2019-03-28 10:58 PM (#580054 - in reply to #576377)
Subject: Re: Seeking Photos of the rear engine/transmission cross-member mounting ears



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Attached.



(IMG_7916.JPG)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments IMG_7916.JPG (191KB - 29 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2019-03-29 1:33 AM (#580056 - in reply to #580054)
Subject: Re: Seeking Photos of the rear engine/transmission cross-member mounting ears



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Ev's62Chrysler - 2019-03-28 7:58 PM
Attached.


Robert: Very nice. Thank you.

It is my "U" but it is much more elegant than what I was thinking.

I will run it by my neighbour who is a fabricator by trade (and who will be doing the welding regardless of which design wins).



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Powerflite
Posted 2019-03-29 9:22 AM (#580057 - in reply to #576377)
Subject: RE: Seeking Photos of the rear engine/transmission cross-member mounting ears



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When I put a 700R4 trans into my '56 Plymouth, I left the frame mounts alone and modified the crossmember as suggested too, except that I just used 1/8" plate instead of the thick 1/4" suggested. I think that thick plate is only required if the offset is much larger than the width of the crossmember.

Edited by Powerflite 2019-03-29 9:25 AM




(700R4Trans.jpg)



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Attachments 700R4Trans.jpg (47KB - 30 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2019-03-29 2:14 PM (#580078 - in reply to #580057)
Subject: RE: Seeking Photos of the rear engine/transmission cross-member mounting ears



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Powerflite - 2019-03-29 6:22 AM
When I put a 700R4 trans into my '56 Plymouth, I left the frame mounts alone and modified the crossmember as suggested too, except that I just used 1/8" plate instead of the thick 1/4" suggested. I think that thick plate is only required if the offset is much larger than the width of the crossmember.


Thanks Nathan. Corroborates what Robert was suggesting in his sketch. Not sure about just the 1/8" plate but I see that the offset is minimal. I think I would have added a bolt-on offset plate (like a "spring board" - maybe with gussets that dropped down to the side of the OE cross-member to resist the twist/sag that could occur) in the middle of the cross member and left the cross member alone for that small offset.

I thought about it for my project until I realized that the issue is NOT the mount as much as the transmission oil pan.



Edited by 56D500boy 2019-03-29 2:23 PM
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-03-29 3:04 PM (#580083 - in reply to #576377)
Subject: Re: Seeking Photos of the rear engine/transmission cross-member mounting ears



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That's the same reason why I did it the way I did. It's not so much that the mount is in the wrong spot as much as the crossmember was in the way of the oil pan. By the way, I moved my crossmember two inches back. I'm not sure how far you need to go.

Edited by Powerflite 2019-03-29 3:20 PM
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-03-29 3:26 PM (#580085 - in reply to #576377)
Subject: Re: Seeking Photos of the rear engine/transmission cross-member mounting ears



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By-the-way, if I were to do my setup all over again, I would install a '62-'65 aluminum 727 instead. That way you get a park function on the trans that you can activate with a cable and it's still fully compatible with the push buttons. You would just need to use an adapter on the motor to mount it up. You can also get one with the E-brake on the back or without it, with a normal slip joint too if you like. Just a thought before you get too far into it. I REALLY enjoy having the park function on this trans. When you have a loaded trailer with a loaded car, parked on a mountain side, having a park function is really nice.

Edited by Powerflite 2019-03-29 3:30 PM
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56D500boy
Posted 2019-03-29 4:27 PM (#580088 - in reply to #580085)
Subject: Re: Seeking Photos of the rear engine/transmission cross-member mounting ears



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Powerflite - 2019-03-29 12:26 PM
By-the-way, if I were to do my setup all over again, I would install a '62-'65 aluminum 727 instead.


I appreciate the suggestion but I did know about that alternative. Dave H. in Minnesota did that with his 56 350 hp 2 x 4bbl "warmed over" D500 hemi. He gave me a copy of his 9 page DIY instructions to convert to a 727. However, after reading that twice, I decided that it was a lot of work (too much for me). Besides, I have it in my mind that if the late build 56 Dodges were being lined up to get the torqueflites (and there are several signs that they were) the D500s would have likely been the most likely candidates. The transmission that they would have used would have used would have been a cast-iron A-466 from the upcoming 57 Chryslers. The only debate that I have going on (in my head) is whether they would have used an oil-cooled or air-cooled torqueflite. The Windsors with the 354 Spitfire polys with a 4 bbl supposedly made 285 hp (265 with the 2 bbl) which should have been enough for a 56 D500 and maybe even a D500-1. The 57 Windsor torqueflites were air-cooled. As it happens (how convenient) that is what I have. That said this past Monday I thought I was lucking into a 58 Dodge D100 truck Loadflite (which was the same as the 57-58 New Yorker and Imperial torqueflites). They were oil-cooled and I would have rationalized that the D500 warranted an oil-cooled torqueflite. Unfortunately, the transmission turned out to be an oil-cooled PowerFlite.

But thanks again.

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Stroller
Posted 2019-03-30 1:22 PM (#580131 - in reply to #576377)
Subject: Re: Seeking Photos of the rear engine/transmission cross-member mounting ears


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Isn't re-engineering and geometry fun? Reminds me all too well of when the net did not exist and all you had was all who might have an idea. My '60 fury was a nightmare when it came to the trans mount going from the auto to the manual. If only the brake and pedal assembly was as easy, not.
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