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Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ
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Mike McCandless
Posted 2019-01-17 7:22 PM (#576952)
Subject: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ


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Buyer beware. Barrett Jackson just pulled the VIN tag off this car. It now has a bonded title and an AZ ID number. That means BJ was able to prove the vin was fake. Great job by Barrett Jackson on this. https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1957-DODGE-CORO...
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56D500boy
Posted 2019-01-17 8:59 PM (#576961 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: RE: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ



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Good for them (BJ). Hope that the buyer only paid "clone" pricing, not "genuine D501" pricing.

We've had several conversations about that car, either directly or indirectly:

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=69991&...

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=70160&...

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=66447&...



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arizona mopar gold
Posted 2019-01-18 1:02 AM (#576969 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ



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It's strange because the Data tag states its a D501 Convertible re:.."BDY 2443"
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mikes2nd
Posted 2019-01-18 1:53 AM (#576971 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ


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read my last post on the 2017 thread :)  thats right, called it!  Dumb guy should have just taken it to mecum... got greedy i guess.

 

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=66091&posts=25&highlight=dodge%20%3Cspan%20class=%27highlight%27%3Ed501%3C/span%3E&highlightmode=1#M544751



Edited by mikes2nd 2019-01-18 2:05 AM
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Finsinthemirror
Posted 2019-01-18 2:04 AM (#576973 - in reply to #576971)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ



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I am by no means giving the car the benefit of the doubt but I wouldn't defer to the judgement of the people at bj as "experts" on these cars.. these aren't mustangs chevys or corvettes.. I could sooner see them err on the side of caution to protect their "reputation" whatever that's worth.. not much to me.
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mikes2nd
Posted 2019-01-18 2:07 AM (#576974 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ


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Barrett Jackson probably just searched on this site, i would bet you can hit here by googling that vin and car... And the guy was super sloppy.
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Mike McCandless
Posted 2019-01-18 4:39 AM (#576978 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ


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If you aren’t familiar with David Wise, he’s the authenticator for Barrett. He has more info on forward look cars, their tags and data points than anyone in the industry. I had him authenticate a car for me and I was as blown away at his resources. I know Barrett has thrown out over 10 cars this year. The car may be real, but the vin tag was a fake. Law enforcement was on sight, so I’m sure the owner didn’t have a pleasant experience. They take fake vins very serious.
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Mike McCandless
Posted 2019-01-18 4:43 AM (#576979 - in reply to #576971)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ


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mikes2nd - 2019-01-18 1:53 AM

 

read my last post on the 2017 thread :)  thats right, called it!  Dumb guy should have just taken it to mecum... got greedy i guess.

 

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=66091&posts=25&highlight=dodge%20%3Cspan%20class=%27highlight%27%3Ed501%3C/span%3E&highlightmode=1#M544751



Not the same car
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mikes2nd
Posted 2019-01-18 7:49 AM (#576982 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ


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Okay we'll... So much for my internet detective badge....
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GregCon
Posted 2019-01-18 8:29 AM (#576984 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ



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Kinda weird that they mention the IBM card is included...if it's a funny car you'd think that is also gonna show that. Plus, the listing shows the car with the optional two tone paint job....the kind where the car is red on white sometimes and white on red the rest of the time.
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Mike McCandless
Posted 2019-01-18 8:56 AM (#576987 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ


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I will be VERY curious what this sells for now.
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mikes2nd
Posted 2019-01-18 11:41 AM (#576993 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ


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Maybe that's a title he got, built the car around it?



Edited by mikes2nd 2019-01-18 11:43 AM
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Mike McCandless
Posted 2019-01-18 1:53 PM (#576997 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ


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My guess would be that the car is real, the tag was not. Bad spot to be in. I'm not sure what the proper process is for getting the right tag on the car that is accepted by law enforcement in that case.
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56D500boy
Posted 2019-01-18 2:27 PM (#576999 - in reply to #576997)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ



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Mike McCandless - 2019-01-18 1:53 PM

My guess would be that the car is real, the tag was not. Bad spot to be in. I'm not sure what the proper process is for getting the right tag on the car that is accepted by law enforcement in that case.


I am not saying anything other than the problem lies (pun not intended) with Chrysler. The IBM card shows the VIN number, the engine number and the various build codes that we try to interpret while the cowl tag, which contains only the build codes but no engine number *OR* the VIN is screwed onto the body, easily removed (from a wrecked car) and moved to a different chassis. Furthermore the VIN tag would be relatively easy to have made (faked).

Examples from what should be a 57 Dodge D500 (not D501) convertible. I have no idea whether the two went together. The VIN is just a stray 57 Dodge VIN.





Edited by 56D500boy 2019-01-18 5:54 PM




(1957-dodge-d500-convertible-11_IBMCard_big_annotated.jpg)



(Supposed57D500Convertible.jpg)



(Example57DodgeVINTag_Annotated.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments 1957-dodge-d500-convertible-11_IBMCard_big_annotated.jpg (108KB - 34 downloads)
Attachments Supposed57D500Convertible.jpg (44KB - 35 downloads)
Attachments Example57DodgeVINTag_Annotated.jpg (49KB - 29 downloads)
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finsruskw
Posted 2019-01-18 5:43 PM (#577006 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ



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HellOOOOO Dave Glassel!!!
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hemidenis
Posted 2019-01-18 7:11 PM (#577007 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ



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"experts" know everything...
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Finsinthemirror
Posted 2019-01-18 7:18 PM (#577008 - in reply to #577007)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ



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I sure hope they thoroughly documented their "authentication" process. I'd certainly like to see a photo of the vin tag for comparison sake..
I would like to know what a "fake" vin looks like..

Edited by Finsinthemirror 2019-01-18 7:19 PM
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Mike McCandless
Posted 2019-01-18 7:25 PM (#577011 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ


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It's made out of the wrong material to start...
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mikes2nd
Posted 2019-01-18 8:45 PM (#577016 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ


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I don't think they will document how they figured out the bad vin... I would expect he probably had one made. darn stainless tags fall off a the time.
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Mike McCandless
Posted 2019-01-18 9:24 PM (#577022 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ


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Stroller
Posted 2019-01-19 10:50 AM (#577038 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ


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I'd argue Barret/Jackson is very good at what they do. However rebodying, vin tage change has been a problem for decades. Honest people will call a re-pop a clone, others call them "Oh yeah it's real". What's they saying? Trust but verify. And yeah they say doing a proper ID on an old GM can be hard, what they produced loads of them, Chrysler would build what like 1 to maybe every other makers 10,000? I remember watching one them reality car shows and they bought what they thought was real McKoy mustand. They soon found tearing it down the left shock tower area had been cut out and welded back in. Yep phony vin tag welded in. Turned out the car had been reported stolen years before. They were out a good deal of cash. Also yep they bought it a local auction.
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Sonoramic60
Posted 2019-01-19 12:52 PM (#577045 - in reply to #577038)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ


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Lads --
Interestingly, The red '60 Fury vert with the ram-inducted 413 was written up as:
"This 1960 Plymouth Fury features the SonoRamic Commando Power Package with an upgraded 413. . . . Barrett-Jackson does not make representations or warranties about vehicles offered for sale at auction. . . ."
It appears B-J kinda hedged their bet with that particular car, anyway, even though they said it was an restoration award-winning car but how and why it got the award was not specified since it had the wrong engine and the dorky wire wheels.
BTW, that droptop has been through more hands than a 9MM in the ghetto - I think it once went for about $149K there and was offered at the Imperial Palace used car lot in Vegas.
Joe Godec
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Mike McCandless
Posted 2019-01-19 1:06 PM (#577048 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ


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I think the 60 fury has traded hands, just at BJ, 5 times in the past 8-9 years. All within a 10% price range
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56D500boy
Posted 2019-01-19 1:24 PM (#577049 - in reply to #577048)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ



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Mike McCandless - 2019-01-19 1:06 PM

I think the 60 fury has traded hands, just at BJ, 5 times in the past 8-9 years. All within a 10% price range


I think that this is it, back in 2010. $62,700.00

https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1960-PLYMOUTH-F...



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mikes2nd
Posted 2019-01-20 12:41 AM (#577092 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ


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the real D500 convert got 157k

https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1958-DODGE-CUST...

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58wedge
Posted 2019-01-20 3:50 AM (#577096 - in reply to #577007)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ


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Amen to that,, stiil a nice car
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Mike McCandless
Posted 2019-01-20 6:39 AM (#577100 - in reply to #577092)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ


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mikes2nd - 2019-01-20 12:41 AM

the real D500 convert got 157k

https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1958-DODGE-CUST...



No doubt they used a hardtop to rebuild the car, wheel wells are different and the top doesn't sit down as it should.

Edited by Mike McCandless 2019-01-20 10:46 AM
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56D500boy
Posted 2019-01-20 10:29 AM (#577107 - in reply to #577100)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ



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Mike McCandless - 2019-01-20 6:39 AM
The real convertible made from a hardtop lol


So this was another clone/Data plate swap. We know that the body type for a 57 convertible (2583 (or 2543?)) is different than a hardtop so how could this happen without a Data tag swap?

Just curious

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mikes2nd
Posted 2019-01-20 10:48 AM (#577112 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ


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yeewoch the buyer is going to take a beating if this gets out too much.. this really hurt FWL owners with all these fakes.

Mopars are usually more likely to be faked since they are rare and go for more money...

I saw they pulled the 68 charger vin also....
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Mike McCandless
Posted 2019-01-20 11:27 AM (#577115 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ


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https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1957-DODGE-CORO...

This is nuts, it looks like they're running the car again today!
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mikes2nd
Posted 2019-01-20 3:18 PM (#577123 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ


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Barrett must have bought it? Or realized its not fake now? And yanked to put back... the controversy continues! of course local buyers have already gone home...
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Mike McCandless
Posted 2019-01-20 3:20 PM (#577124 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ


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My guess is buyer put it back in. No way BJ bought it.
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hemidenis
Posted 2019-01-20 9:25 PM (#577141 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ



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Pretty sure is a coupe used to rebuild a rusted hulk of a D-500.. Pretty standard procedure, I don't know why so much surprise from everybody. Actually is an accepted way to restore, is it?
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hemidenis
Posted 2019-01-20 9:27 PM (#577142 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ



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like this one? what are you going to do? call Frank Mitchel for NOS sheet metal? Time Machine?





Edited by hemidenis 2019-01-20 9:28 PM




(n2convert.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments n2convert.jpg (157KB - 28 downloads)
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Mike McCandless
Posted 2019-01-21 6:49 AM (#577154 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ


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What you don't do, is put a fake vin tag on. Authorities get very angry over things like that.
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hemidenis
Posted 2019-01-21 7:40 AM (#577156 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ



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if your A pillar is rusted too, you need to put the fake VIN on the coupe. It could be also that the convertible had the VIN detached and missing too. Another thing that people got wrong, is that the coupe hardtop is not the donor, is the other way around.



Edited by hemidenis 2019-01-21 9:28 AM
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-01-21 9:08 AM (#577161 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ



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The title is most likely to be missing from an old car. No title and no VIN = parts car, no matter what awesome model it is. So what does BJ mean here by Re-creation? Do they have a standard definition of what that means? If it weren't a real D501, I would have expected the word "clone" to be used. Are they just in a tizzy fit because a coupe body was used to save a convertible in terrible shape? If so, I would be livid that they pulled the VIN and put that assigned crap on there, if I were the owner. Even if the guy didn't do a great job with the conversion, it could still be fixed. But once the VIN is gone and the title changed, that can never be fixed.
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Mike McCandless
Posted 2019-01-21 10:38 AM (#577166 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ


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What's the process on these cars if you are missing a vin, to get a legal one on the car?
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mikes2nd
Posted 2019-01-21 12:15 PM (#577170 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ


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it varies from state to state, but if you have a clean title its usually very simple. Call up the state highway inspection, they will look it up, look for a hidden vin if one exists/check for theft and then create one for you. It will be a new tag though. IF you have the title in your name.

I think the owner probably had one made since he didnt want the stigma of a replacement vin tag. I dont have a huge problem with that though, im sure many would. We all know stainless will react with steel and thusly these vins come off.

The book of vin/hidden locations is only 100$ on the nhtsa site.

With a fwl it would be hard to replicate the spot weld i think
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mikes2nd
Posted 2019-01-21 3:59 PM (#577172 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ


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Vin location book

99$


https://www.nicb.org/vinmanuals
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FINS!
Posted 2019-01-26 12:54 AM (#577394 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: RE: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ


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No VIN tag and no title, you can get an assinged VIN number. I have seen it done here in IL. If your other option is to scrap the car, an assigned VIN number is obviously better. I would be kind of surprised if that manual shows where hidden VINs are.
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GregCon
Posted 2019-01-26 8:50 AM (#577398 - in reply to #577394)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ



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I think you could get a legal VIN with some effort...but the other big issue is how it affects the value and authenticity of the car. If I were buying a big buck 'ultra-rare' car I'd probably want it to be 100% legit, too.
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finsruskw
Posted 2019-01-26 11:42 AM (#577405 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ



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Kind off topic here but you were talking about titles and such.
Here in Iowa things recently changed. Now you have to have the junk title to the car and present it to the scrap dealer upon delivery in order for the crusher to take it.

My son parts a few cars each year and this is what the dealer has told him just last fall. He has to have the title that has been taken to the court house and exchanged for a junk certificate.
We scrapped a 57 Windsor last summer and I had to cut the car completely up in small enough pieces so it could be "stuffed" into another body shell that was going to the crusher w/title. This is about the only way around this.

Edited by finsruskw 2019-01-26 11:45 AM
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58coupe
Posted 2019-01-26 12:03 PM (#577406 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ



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I hope i also don't hijack this thread but that is the problem with ALL laws that are enacted to PROTECT us. The politicians that write these laws have good intentions but there are always unintended consequences that put extra burdens on the honest person.
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-01-27 2:33 PM (#577460 - in reply to #577394)
Subject: RE: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ



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FINS! - 2019-01-25 9:54 PM
No VIN tag and no title, you can get an assinged VIN number. I have seen it done here in IL. If your other option is to scrap the car, an assigned VIN number is obviously better. I would be kind of surprised if that manual shows where hidden VINs are.


I don't think you can do that legally. Or, at least if you can, it is due to negligence on part of the person doing it (which can be quite common!). When I had a VIN assigned to one of my cars in Colorado, they required a lot more paperwork than it would take if I had just gotten it registered. In that case, I had swapped a newer IRS VW pan onto my old '64 body. The older bodies had the VIN on the frame, and the newer ones had it both on the body & frame. So I had a title to a car that didn't have the VIN on it. In order to assign me a new VIN on the body, they required both titles to the frame & body, and information about the previous owners as well - as well as a bond issued in my name. I don't see how you would get through that process with absolutely nothing in your possession. Doesn't seem possible to me.
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58coupe
Posted 2019-01-27 7:34 PM (#577474 - in reply to #576952)
Subject: Re: Fake vin tag on 1957 D501 convertible at BJ



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I have told this story once before. I bought a 74 Jensen-Healey in early 2000s that had lived its life in California. It came with a title that had been signed over but not transferred, old owner said no problem in his state. VIN was 14xxx. Car had been off the road (not licensed) for more than 10 years and Cal. would not transfer title because that serial number had been reissued to a homebuilt trailer.
That example is what the state can do to you.
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