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Factory Overdrive in FL cars
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jboymechanic
Posted 2019-01-31 1:21 PM (#577654)
Subject: Factory Overdrive in FL cars



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I've been interested in knowing more about the factory manual transmissions with option overdrive that were available in FL cars until 1959. I've searched this site and others online and I can't find that much information, thought maybe it would be a good idea to start a thread to gather such information. The first item I found was over at p15-d24, the link discusses various versions of the Borg Warner overdrives.

http://p15-d24.com/blogs/entry/88-the-rough-field-spotters-guide-fo...

So for FL cars, the R10G1 was available until 1956 and then the R10J1 replaced it until Chrysler stopped offering overdrive for the 1960 model year. What transmissions were these overdrive units married to? Also, I believe the entire trans was overdrive specific, you can't swap an OD tail unit onto a non-OD trans, correct? Were there differences between straight 6 and V8 applications? I'd love to know more, I've always thought it would be really cool AND practical to have a straight 6 car with 3 speed on the column with overdrive.

Thanks for you help gathering info.
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jboymechanic
Posted 2019-01-31 1:35 PM (#577655 - in reply to #577654)
Subject: Re: Factory Overdrive in FL cars



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Here is what appears to be a late 1950s Borg Warner overdrive that was behind a 383. Input shaft looks extremely long, why?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Early-Borg-Warner-R10J-3-Speed-Manual-Trans...
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56D500boy
Posted 2019-01-31 2:13 PM (#577656 - in reply to #577654)
Subject: RE: Factory Overdrive in FL cars



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I can't help much but I do have 55-58 Mopar info that might be useful (or not):





(55-58OverdriveDiagram.jpg)



(55-58OverdriveAssemblyPNs.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments 55-58OverdriveDiagram.jpg (139KB - 15 downloads)
Attachments 55-58OverdriveAssemblyPNs.jpg (298KB - 15 downloads)
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jboymechanic
Posted 2019-01-31 2:32 PM (#577657 - in reply to #577654)
Subject: Re: Factory Overdrive in FL cars



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Here are some part numbers from my interchange manual. All numbers are for transmission assemblies, 3 speed standard shift with overdrive. Didn't list any for Chrysler, and nothing for Dodge (cars) or Desoto after 1956, is this correct? Can these part numbers be translated into a better transmission description?

1673196 - 1955 - 1956 Plymouth
1638287 - 1957 Plymouth
1824269 - early 1958 Plymouth
1853875 - late 1958 to 1959 Plymouth 6 cylinder

1673197 - 1955 - 1956 Dodge and Desoto
1667251 - 1957 - 1958 Dodge D100 truck
1921092 - 1959 - 1960 Dodge D100 truck

So overdrive was never offered on FL Chryslers? No overdrive for Desoto after 1956? What about Dodge cars? Still also hoping to find Borg Warner transmission and overdrive numbers.

Edited by jboymechanic 2019-01-31 2:49 PM
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59 in Calif
Posted 2019-01-31 2:54 PM (#577658 - in reply to #577654)
Subject: Re: Factory Overdrive in FL cars


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Back in the early 60's I was 19 - 20 yrs old in the USAF stationed at Rapid City SD. I spent a lot of time scouting out the local junk yards. I found a real nice 57 Ply 2dr sedan (no drive train), put a 392 Hemi in it. I bolted up a bellhousing from a 55 Ply (V8) with a 3 spd OD. At that time there were a lot of those OD trans in the junk yards. It didn't take long to find out that trans wouldn't take the torque of that Hemi. As it would split the main box end to end and dump the oil on the street. So I would just go get another one. The long tail shaft OD's were hard to find even then. I never did see one that was bolted to an eng. larger than a 318. For obvious reasons. But did seem to be popular with the flat 6's. It was a good trans and I enjoyed having fun with 6 gears and a Hemi eng. I would try to find a 56 OD trans as the governor was set up for 12V. But the earlier 6V versions worked ok too. Just seem to shift a bit quicker. Didn't seem to have one long enough to burn out the governor. So if some one could find a 57 -58 Ply with a 318 and the long tailshaft OD, this would make a fun and economical car to cruise around with. Just don't high RPM pop the clutch !! Jerry
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coronetx2
Posted 2019-01-31 4:44 PM (#577666 - in reply to #577654)
Subject: Re: Factory Overdrive in FL cars



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I have a 56 dodge 2 Dr ht with a 270 poly and a 3 speed manual O D
It's a parts car but all the O D stuff is there
Also know where there is a 56 Plymouth wagon with an O D in it

Edited by coronetx2 2019-01-31 4:46 PM
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57chizler
Posted 2019-02-01 12:19 PM (#577701 - in reply to #577655)
Subject: Re: Factory Overdrive in FL cars



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jboymechanic - 2019-01-31 10:35 AM

Input shaft looks extremely long, why?



I've wondered that myself, for some reason the early input shaft is a full two inches longer than the later transmissions such as the A-230 and A-833. This makes the bellhousings extra deep as well.
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1960fury
Posted 2019-02-01 1:55 PM (#577703 - in reply to #577658)
Subject: Re: Factory Overdrive in FL cars



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59 in Calif - 2019-01-31 2:54 PM

Back in the early 60's I was 19 - 20 yrs old in the USAF stationed at Rapid City SD. I spent a lot of time scouting out the local junk yards. I found a real nice 57 Ply 2dr sedan (no drive train), put a 392 Hemi in it. I bolted up a bellhousing from a 55 Ply (V8) with a 3 spd OD. At that time there were a lot of those OD trans in the junk yards. It didn't take long to find out that trans wouldn't take the torque of that Hemi. As it would split the main box end to end and dump the oil on the street. So I would just go get another one. The long tail shaft OD's were hard to find even then. I never did see one that was bolted to an eng. larger than a 318. For obvious reasons. But did seem to be popular with the flat 6's. It was a good trans and I enjoyed having fun with 6 gears and a Hemi eng. I would try to find a 56 OD trans as the governor was set up for 12V. But the earlier 6V versions worked ok too. Just seem to shift a bit quicker. Didn't seem to have one long enough to burn out the governor. So if some one could find a 57 -58 Ply with a 318 and the long tailshaft OD, this would make a fun and economical car to cruise around with. Just don't high RPM pop the clutch !! Jerry


Love the storys from people who drove these cars when they were new. Thanks.
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jboymechanic
Posted 2019-02-06 2:54 PM (#577915 - in reply to #577703)
Subject: Re: Factory Overdrive in FL cars



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Can anyone confirm what these transmissions were? Were they Chrysler made transmissions with Borg-Warner overdrives adapted to them, or was the whole assembly made by Borg-Warner? What is the transmission designation?

Also, I've captured some pictures and information from the transmission listed on ebay that I linked in one of my earlier posts.

Transmission: Cast # "R10J-1", indicates Borg-Warner overdrive 1957 to 1959 application.
Engine: Stamped # "ML 383 24I98", block cast # "1851829-5 L. L.". Can anyone identify the vintage of this 383 V8?
Bell housing: Cast # "1821518". Again, can anyone identify this bell housing application?

Not sure if this was a stock arrangement or put together by someone long ago. Engine and trans have been out of the vehicle for over 30 years. The engine has, what appears to me, a center sump oil pan and a very tall upper radiator hose. Was this setup in a large Dodge truck? Pictures included for reference.





(1959 383 with BW OD 2 RESIZED.jpg)



(1959 383 with BW OD 4 RESIZED.jpg)



(1959 383 with BW OD 6 RESIZED.jpg)



(1959 383 with BW OD 8 RESIZED.jpg)



(1959 383 with BW OD 10 RESIZED.jpg)



(Borg Warner R10J1 OD 9 RESIZED.jpg)



(Borg Warner R10J1 OD 10 RESIZED.jpg)



(Borg Warner R10J1 OD 11 RESIZED.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments 1959 383 with BW OD 2 RESIZED.jpg (235KB - 13 downloads)
Attachments 1959 383 with BW OD 4 RESIZED.jpg (202KB - 12 downloads)
Attachments 1959 383 with BW OD 6 RESIZED.jpg (186KB - 12 downloads)
Attachments 1959 383 with BW OD 8 RESIZED.jpg (243KB - 11 downloads)
Attachments 1959 383 with BW OD 10 RESIZED.jpg (263KB - 12 downloads)
Attachments Borg Warner R10J1 OD 9 RESIZED.jpg (275KB - 12 downloads)
Attachments Borg Warner R10J1 OD 10 RESIZED.jpg (172KB - 13 downloads)
Attachments Borg Warner R10J1 OD 11 RESIZED.jpg (209KB - 12 downloads)
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1960fury
Posted 2019-02-06 5:04 PM (#577919 - in reply to #577915)
Subject: Re: Factory Overdrive in FL cars



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jboymechanic - 2019-02-06 2:54 PM

Can anyone identify the vintage of this 383 V8?
for reference.



Any letters above the 24198 ?

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59 in Calif
Posted 2019-02-06 7:42 PM (#577922 - in reply to #577654)
Subject: Re: Factory Overdrive in FL cars


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I have a really old Chry Corp book that shows info and pics for Imp, Chry, Desoto, Dodge, Ply, going back to 1924. It shows eng serial # symbols. The symbol MC1-L shows up for a 383 in a 59 Windsor. Also a MS1-L shows up for a 383 in a 59 Firesweep. Also a MD2-L & MD3-L show up for 383 in a 59 Coronet, Royal & Sierra. Just a guess, but looks like only the M and the L got stamped on that eng. I would be willing to bet this is a 59 Chry Corp eng. I don't have access to casting #'s so can't help there. That bell housing looks like it is long enough to house that old Fluid Coupling unit. But 53 was the last yr for that. But seems to me the 53 Dodge 241 Hemi used it. In that case that bell housing could bolt up to that 383. It seems rather odd someone would bolt a fluid coupling up to that 383. All of this doesn't make any sense. Also the throw out lever is real close to the rear of that bell housing, which leaves a lot of space to the flywheel. The pics don't show if there is a flywheel & clutch mounted on that eng. It would be interesting to take some measurements or bolt the trans up and see what is going on there. Jerry
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jboymechanic
Posted 2019-02-06 8:34 PM (#577925 - in reply to #577654)
Subject: Re: Factory Overdrive in FL cars



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The seller says that ML 383 24198 is all that is stamped on the block, other than a "B" on the other side. Below is a link to the ebay sale for the engine. Any ideas?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1959-Mopar-383-Engine-Dodge-Plymouth-Desoto...
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58coupe
Posted 2019-02-06 9:16 PM (#577926 - in reply to #577654)
Subject: Re: Factory Overdrive in FL cars



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The long bell housing and input shaft are what was standard for Chrysler during that time period. I know because my first 57 Fury had been converted to a manual 3 speed before I bought it and I replaced several because they broke behind a 318. I can't find any of the casting numbers in my reference books but suspect this was put together long ago by the owner because the notes in my Hollander say overdrive was used behind the smaller engines. These trans. may have been made by New Process which I believe was owned by Chrysler.
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jboymechanic
Posted 2019-02-07 8:41 AM (#577940 - in reply to #577654)
Subject: Re: Factory Overdrive in FL cars



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I'm guessing this was put together by someone at some point as well. There is no mention of overdrive in my 1958 or 1959 Dodge factory service manual, only Plymouth continued to offer overdrive 1957 to 1959, and Dodge trucks from 1957 to 1960. Plymouth never had the option of a 383 (as I understand it), and neither did the Dodge trucks (overdrives came behind a 6 or a 318).

After looking at under the hood pictures of '59 Dodge cars, I guess the top radiator hose isn't that tall after all. Can anyone comment on the shape of the oil pan on that 383? Is this a car motor?
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57chizler
Posted 2019-02-07 12:26 PM (#577945 - in reply to #577940)
Subject: Re: Factory Overdrive in FL cars



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The B-W R10 overdrive unit was usually only used in the lighter transmissions like the T-86, the heavy duty T-85 transmissions got the R-11 unit.



(TFR11castnum.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments TFR11castnum.jpg (65KB - 11 downloads)
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59 in Calif
Posted 2019-02-07 6:47 PM (#577957 - in reply to #577654)
Subject: Re: Factory Overdrive in FL cars


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That oil pan looks like a passenger car application. The deep well part sets between the front crossmember and the tie rod ass'y. That real short rear section sets above the tie rod ass'y. The shape of this oil pan was used on engines in torsion bar equipped cars. As far as I know the pick up trucks all used a rear well type of oil pan. Jerry
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jboymechanic
Posted 2019-02-08 10:06 AM (#577976 - in reply to #577654)
Subject: Re: Factory Overdrive in FL cars



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Thank you for your input, it's appreciated.
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jboymechanic
Posted 2019-03-08 11:50 PM (#579060 - in reply to #577654)
Subject: Re: Factory Overdrive in FL cars



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I still can't find what transmission the R10J-1 is based off, but I think it is a variation of the T-85. I base this off what I can find on the Studebaker sites and information about various Borg Warner Trans. T-86 transmissions were "top loaders" while the T-85 is a "side loader". The overdrive units used by Mopar in 1957-59 are side loaders.
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Chrycoman
Posted 2019-03-09 9:18 AM (#579072 - in reply to #577925)
Subject: Re: Factory Overdrive in FL cars



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jboymechanic - 2019-02-06 8:34 PM

The seller says that ML 383 24198 is all that is stamped on the block, other than a "B" on the other side. Below is a link to the ebay sale for the engine. Any ideas?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1959-Mopar-383-Engine-Dodge-Plymouth-Desoto...


ML 383 24198 is the engine number.

M - 1959
L - Low "B" block engine
383 - 383 cid
24198 - 23,198th ML 383 built.

It' s the low block 383 as used in 1959 DeSoto, Dodge and Canadian-built Chrysler Saratoga.

"MR" would mean a 1959 Raised "B" block engine as used on 1959 US-built Chrysler Windsor and Saratoga.


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jboymechanic
Posted 2019-03-09 9:21 AM (#579073 - in reply to #579060)
Subject: Re: Factory Overdrive in FL cars



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I ended up buying the transmission listed in the ebay ad I originally posted, the seller accepted my offer. Here are some pictures of the standard 3 speed from the 1959 Plymouth service manual and pictures of my R10J-1 overdrive on my bench.



(thumb_IMG_3483_1024.jpg)



(thumb_IMG_3482_1024.jpg)



(thumb_IMG_3462_1024.jpg)



(thumb_IMG_3472_1024.jpg)



(thumb_IMG_3471_1024.jpg)



(thumb_IMG_3469_1024.jpg)



(thumb_IMG_3468_1024.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments thumb_IMG_3483_1024.jpg (231KB - 6 downloads)
Attachments thumb_IMG_3482_1024.jpg (243KB - 6 downloads)
Attachments thumb_IMG_3462_1024.jpg (201KB - 6 downloads)
Attachments thumb_IMG_3472_1024.jpg (198KB - 6 downloads)
Attachments thumb_IMG_3471_1024.jpg (210KB - 6 downloads)
Attachments thumb_IMG_3469_1024.jpg (212KB - 6 downloads)
Attachments thumb_IMG_3468_1024.jpg (221KB - 6 downloads)
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jboymechanic
Posted 2019-03-12 10:48 PM (#579269 - in reply to #577654)
Subject: Re: Factory Overdrive in FL cars



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If it helps, the side cover has 8 AD and C-91704 cast into the side cover. The main case has the numbers F 23 59, 93471 and then 5 case into it. Also, the AD appears hear as well, but more engraved looking. Tail housing has what appears to be Q1 engraved in it.
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jboymechanic
Posted 2019-03-12 11:11 PM (#579270 - in reply to #577654)
Subject: Re: Factory Overdrive in FL cars



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My transmission also appears to be based on the lighter duty or wide ratio version of the standard 3 speed, quick bench top test found the following gear ratios:
1st = 1:2.5
2nd = 1:1.68
3rd = 1:1

For reference, the heavy duty standard trans is 1:2.31, 1:1.55 and 1:1
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