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adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?
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di_ch_NY56
Posted 2019-04-15 1:47 PM (#580923)
Subject: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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Today I just got a phone call from my engine builder about the crankshaft. A crankshaft with the old style end would cost between USD 5000.- and 10'000.- not balanced. I want to stick with the A466 in my Letter and so in my head the question (Subject) rose. it's because a rotating asseembly (crankshaft, connection rods, pistons /w rings fully balanced) for a 440 costs about USD 2500.- to 3000.-

Of course there are two other options...

a) metal hot spray to all bearing surfaces to shave the bearing surfaces afterward to the factory specification.

b) new style crankshaft and a A727, but that's what I do not want in my Letter.

I'll appreciate your answers. Thank you.

Happy Restoring!

Dieter

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wizard
Posted 2019-04-15 3:06 PM (#580929 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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The only economical and good option is to buy a fair used crankshaft and grind it to under dimension
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57chizler
Posted 2019-04-16 2:36 PM (#580978 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: RE: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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Is hard-chroming the journals an option? Used to be the cheapest way in The States.

https://www.powercrankshaft.com/crankshaft-repair/
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-04-16 3:24 PM (#580984 - in reply to #580978)
Subject: RE: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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I have been told many times by experienced people not to do hard chrome plating. It eventually wears off and creates debri in your bearings. Not good.

Welding up the crank journal and grinding it back to spec is fine though. I have done that many times without any issue. That's what I would do if I were in your shoes. In the US, I could get that done for about $150 + $150 for the rest of the machining. Not too expensive.

If you do go with a new style crank, I would use the '62-'65 push button 727 trans that will mate up well with your push buttons, but does require a number of different modifications to your driveshaft, trans mount etc.
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-04-16 3:29 PM (#580985 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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But....it sounds like you don't have a journal that has been ruined. It sounds like you just want to bring the whole crank up to spec. If that's the case, then just grind the whole thing to .01" under and use oversize bearings. Oversize bearings are usually cheaper than standard because that's what everyone does. If you want to retain the hard nitride on the surface of the journals, then the hot metal spray *might* be a good option. It depends on how well it remains stuck to the surface over time.

Edited by Powerflite 2019-04-16 3:32 PM
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-04-16 9:41 PM (#580995 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: RE: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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Thinking about the hard chrome plating, I bet the problem is they apply the chrome directly to the crank. I know from my experience at my job that you would get better adhesion if you plate with titanium first, and then chrome plate, or just use titanium instead of chrome. Not sure if the titanium would give you a similar type of wear resistance or not.
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57chizler
Posted 2019-04-17 1:00 PM (#581024 - in reply to #580984)
Subject: RE: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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Powerflite - 2019-04-16 12:24 PM

I have been told many times by experienced people not to do hard chrome plating. It eventually wears off and creates debri in your bearings. Not good.


Nonsense. Shaft hard-chroming is widely used in industrial applications to prevent wear. One of the premier hard-chroming facilities was located near me and, for years, I never ran a crank that wasn't hard-chromed.
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di_ch_NY56
Posted 2019-04-19 10:50 AM (#581146 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: RE: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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I just let you know what my engine builder (typically builds really bullet proof race engines). He told me undersize journals and oversize bearing cups are a foule compromise, because the bearing cups are not the same (multilayer bearing cups). The layer thickness are thicker than in stock bearing cups and they wouldn't last as long as stock bearing cups.

Another option in my mind right now is an Imperail 413 engine (running) and exchange the camshaft, distributor, intake and exhaust manifolds.

Dieter

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Powerflite
Posted 2019-04-19 12:21 PM (#581149 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: RE: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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Millions of people used oversize bearings for many thousands of miles. Your machinist is full of it. This chart shows that they increase the shell size to account for changes in bearing size. The layer thicknesses remain the same - even for small changes like .001". The only issue with using oversize bearings is that by cutting the std crank journal surface, you lose the hard nitride outer layer which makes your new crank surface softer and more vulnerable to wear. But it will still wear fine for the amount of miles you are likely to put on the motor, and the reality is that the bearings usually wear out before the crank journals anyway.



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wayfarer
Posted 2019-04-19 6:35 PM (#581162 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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Well....., there is one adapter for a post-62 RB crank for a pre-62 converter, but you would still need to have a spacer for the block to trans case. Weld the crank or cut it to 0.010 and move on.

I agree. Your machinist is, for some reason, being less than factual.

Under sized bearing are used by the millions every day in this country. I have built blown 392 packages and used them; In fact, I haven't used standard journal sizes in years.
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di_ch_NY56
Posted 2019-04-20 2:10 PM (#581178 - in reply to #581162)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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wayfarer - 2019-04-19 12:35 AM Well....., there is one adapter for a post-62 RB crank for a pre-62 converter, but you would still need to have a spacer for the block to trans case. Weld the crank or cut it to 0.010 and move on. I agree. Your machinist is, for some reason, being less than factual. Under sized bearing are used by the millions every day in this country. I have built blown 392 packages and used them; In fact, I haven't used standard journal sizes in years.

Thanks a lot. I did a little bit research on the internet (duck2go) and got out that the newer style crankshaft uses a flex plate to mount the torque converter, while the old style crankshaft uses the outer diameter of the flange to center the old style torque converter. Beside that if you have both crankshaft styles available and an old style block, it should be possible to measure the difference of the flange end position to the block mating surface to the torque converter house to elaborate if a shaving or a shim plate is necessary to get the same position. Please correct me, if I'm wrong. Thanks a lot

 

Dieter

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57chizler
Posted 2019-04-20 3:53 PM (#581182 - in reply to #581178)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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The early crank flange extends farther from the block than the new style, so it would seem easy to simply machine a spacer to extend the crank flange for use with the A-466 but the problem is the studs built into the face of the A-466 converter, they're not long enough to extend through both the spacer and the crank flange.
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di_ch_NY56
Posted 2019-04-21 1:53 AM (#581196 - in reply to #581182)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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57chizler - 2019-04-19 9:53 PM The early crank flange extends farther from the block than the new style, so it would seem easy to simply machine a spacer to extend the crank flange for use with the A-466 but the problem is the studs built into the face of the A-466 converter, they're not long enough to extend through both the spacer and the crank flange.

Thanks for your hint... the page I got the information is link to clutch - drag racing

I hope a talented and professional genious machinist could solve the stem length problem as well. Another problem could be to mount the hex nuts while the new style crankshaft is already installed into the engine block by the way...

Dieter

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wayfarer
Posted 2019-04-29 10:50 PM (#581550 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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Dieter,

I make an adapter for the late crank to early converter; it is part of an on-going project to install A-LA engines in the early cars. The project is about half-finished. But for the B-RB engine you would still need to design and manufacture the appropriate block adapter that would also mount the early starter. If you want to talk about this please use my shop email: hemi.parts@yahoo.com

Your best solution is to simply grind your existing crankshaft to the next available undersize and get back to driving the car.

Gary
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di_ch_NY56
Posted 2019-05-19 8:39 AM (#582277 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: RE: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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Thank you very much for your answer. The idea of the engine shop was to use a rotating assembly with a stroker crank and forged pistons. But no crankshaft producing company offers an early B/RB crank style as a stock crankshaft. This means I have to pay the drop forging tool as well, because it seems no company addressed will see a business model for early R/RB engines.

Dieter

BTW: the second idea was to use a modern (e.g.) 440 crankshaft with the existing (old style) engine block. The third idea (apparently the most realistic) is either to grind the original crankshaft or to find a quite good replacement crankshaft of an early RB engine (NY, Imperial, or Dodge/Plymouth/De Soto with an RB engine).



Edited by di_ch_NY56 2019-05-19 8:44 AM
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wayfarer
Posted 2019-05-19 12:23 PM (#582287 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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Dieter, if you are needing/wanting to have a stroker crank then it is possible but, just not cheap.
Marine Crankshaft (in the Los Angeles area) can build a welded stroker from an oem but you would likely need
to find one in the states and not ship yours over here due to freight. The cost of the re-work starts around $1000......
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di_ch_NY56
Posted 2019-05-20 2:14 PM (#582325 - in reply to #582287)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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wayfarer - 2019-05-18 6:23 PM Dieter, if you are needing/wanting to have a stroker crank then it is possible but, just not cheap. Marine Crankshaft (in the Los Angeles area) can build a welded stroker from an oem but you would likely need to find one in the states and not ship yours over here due to freight. The cost of the re-work starts around $1000......

Thanks a lot for your answer. The engine shop already sent my crankshaft to the States (it's on a private address now). Yesterday I watched some videos of crankshaft welding (broken crankshaft,  but not in the States, but (most probably) Iran). Because another idea rose in my head... is it possible to cut the end (end flange, behind the rear seal area) of a e.g. 440 crankshaft and weld the end of a 413 (early) onto the crankshaft? Would it cope the torque the engine produces?

Dieter



Edited by di_ch_NY56 2019-05-20 2:16 PM
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58coupe
Posted 2019-05-20 10:41 PM (#582350 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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Dieter, remember that all of our early cranks are forged steel and welding even the very best is actually a casting.I would be afraid the twisting torque would eventually break a crank made from 2 pieces.
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57chizler
Posted 2019-05-21 2:04 PM (#582372 - in reply to #582350)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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All big block Mopar crankshafts prior to '73 are forged.
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wayfarer
Posted 2019-05-22 12:25 PM (#582407 - in reply to #580923)
Subject: Re: adaptor available for RB with new style crankshaft to A466?



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Dieter, if your crank is already in the states then have it 'reworked'. Your state-side connection can call
Marine Crankshaft...talk with David...714-549-2388
Although it is technically feasible to graft on a different flange it would also be possible to pile on lots-o-weld material and
change the design...neither would be cheaper than welding and stroking.
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