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Thread of the thru axle is defective
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Todd
Posted 2020-01-18 12:57 PM (#593148)
Subject: Thread of the thru axle is defective


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Hi folks.
This is Todd from germany. I own a 1960 canadian Dodge Dart and currently doing the first brake job for the rear axle at the car
I just bought two well-preserved brake drums for the rear axle from John Fowlie. I have already installed one. When I removed the wheel bolts on the passenger side, the brake drum suddenly fell towards me. Some crazy man removed the rivets from the hub and only attached the brake drum with the wheel bolts. I was very lucky that one wheel bolt never broke in the four years with 18,000 miles driven. Oh my God.

[img]https://thumbs.picr.de/37692547tx.jpg[/img]

When I removed the crown nut, I knew why the drum / hub could never be removed as a unit: the thread of the thru axle is round. The crown nut is sojourned only at the very end on the last threads just before the cone. A puller cannot be installed in this way.
In addition, a piece of the thru axle was cut off at the front.
I want to ask you what is the best solution to the problem. For me there are two options: cut a new thread or buy a new thru axle.

[img]https://thumbs.picr.de/37692549az.jpg[/img]

Of course, I want to try cutting a new thread first. But I've never done that before. I would be very happy if someone has advice and a link for the tool I need. I don't know which size to cut and which crown nut to use. A link for a suitable thread cutter in the right size would also be great, also for a suitable new crown nut.

Many, many thanks in advance
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wizard
Posted 2020-01-18 2:50 PM (#593152 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective



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The separation of the drum/hub is a modification that many has done, me included - this is normally no problem as MoPar changed to this system later on.
In this case, the hub seems to have been beated up or damaged, so there could be a problem with the centering of the drum.

As for the axle drive shaft, carefully grind it flat and glue a thick washer to the shaft end - then use the puller as normal proceedure.

As for cutting new threads, once that you removed the hub, remove the dust shield and then the axle drive shaft. Remove the bearing.

Then the shaft can be mounted in a lathe with a protective brass sheet around. The bad thread can then be turned down to the correct diameter for the closest metric or inch bolt size and then the new threads can be cut in the lathe.
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wizard
Posted 2020-01-18 2:55 PM (#593153 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective



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Search for an ISO thread profile sheet - there you can get the correct dimensions based on the smallest diameter on the damaged thread.

For metric, see this https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrisches_ISO-Gewinde
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Powerflite
Posted 2020-01-18 3:12 PM (#593154 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective



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I would replace that axle, although I understand the difficulty in doing that in Europe. That nut takes a lot of torque and if you turn it down too far, it may strip even worse when you install it at the required torque. You could weld the end of the axle and then cut the welds on a lathe to the original thread size. Quench the weld in oil after welding to preserve the hardness. I think that's a preferable solution. Although it isn't recommended to weld on an axle, the very end of it should be OK because there isn't stress there from the torque of the motor. But replacing it is definitely the best solution. If it weren't for shipping, I could offer you a replacement axle.
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Old Ray
Posted 2020-01-18 3:21 PM (#593155 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: RE: Thread of the thru axle is defective



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I saved a rear axle on my '56 that I cross thread with a Buckingham thread restorer. Your axle is in much worse shape so not sure if you have enough material left. You just need enough to hold the nut. The thread restorer works from the inside (back) of the thread and cuts new threads turning out. Saved my stupid butt !





(thread restorer.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments thread restorer.jpg (27KB - 64 downloads)
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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2020-01-18 5:30 PM (#593162 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective



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If you were to decide to put the axle in a lathe, it will be much easier to weld up the damaged threads with new 'metal' first, then turn it down on the lathe to the right diameter and recut the correct threads again.
If you really want to keep that rear axle I would look for a single other axle.
(I might still have a pair of axles laying around perhaps from a Chrysler Imperial, but not sure if I already sold them to someone or not.)
Personally I would replace the entire rear axle with one from a later '60s car.
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Todd
Posted 2020-01-19 5:16 AM (#593180 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective


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Thanks a lot for the suggestions to solve the problem folks. I'm carefully considering what I'm going to do now.
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wizard
Posted 2020-01-19 7:22 AM (#593183 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective



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Here are some of mine old school thread restorers. If you should see one on a swap meet, you'll know what it is.

Todds axle threads are too far gone for to be fixed with theses Tools.



(IMG_3328.JPG)



(IMG_3329.JPG)



(IMG_3330.JPG)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments IMG_3328.JPG (282KB - 67 downloads)
Attachments IMG_3329.JPG (293KB - 67 downloads)
Attachments IMG_3330.JPG (292KB - 67 downloads)
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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2020-01-19 5:43 PM (#593201 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective



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I've got an axle available if needed.
I think it's from a '64 Imperial which had a SureGrip diff, so I'm not sure if the length is similar to your axle.
Measured from end-to-end, the axle is just over 80cm.

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Todd
Posted 2020-01-20 1:41 PM (#593226 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective


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Thanks a lot BBM, that's very nice from you. But in the meantime troubles disappeared....John Fowlie helped me along. He has a axle drive shaft in good shape for me, very fair priced. I'm happy. John is a very, very honest, nice guy you all know. He already sold me two very well preserved rear brake drums/hubs. it is a pleasure to do business with him.
I like to thank everyone in this thread who wanted to help me solve the problem. As some had adviced me, it's the best to buy a "new" axle drive shaft. I agree.
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wizard
Posted 2020-01-20 3:00 PM (#593229 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective



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Great Todd! Now that you have axle drive shaft, remove the one with the damage threads, but don't throw it away - you'll never know when it will be needed.

You can have it repaired and keep it o the shelf.

My motto is to never throw old parts away if they're not totally destroyed. Next to all old parts can be repaired, many of the new produced parts arn't worth to mount.
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Powerflite
Posted 2020-01-20 3:02 PM (#593230 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective



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Right, if nothing else, you can attach a handle to it and use it to dig post holes.
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Todd
Posted 2020-01-21 9:39 AM (#593265 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective


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Haha
Oh, I still have a question: if I don't want to remove the stubborn hub, can I still remove the backing and support plate from the pulled axle drive shaft? Is it possible to remove/slide them to the opposite side of the shaft?
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wizard
Posted 2020-01-21 9:55 AM (#593266 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective



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Yes, you should be abe to reach the nuts and unscrew them. Anyway, you need to remove the hub for to get the dust shield free, but it might be much more easy in a hydraulic press…..
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Todd
Posted 2020-01-22 11:30 AM (#593321 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective


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OK I got it, thanks a lot. What about the bearing on the axle.
Is it possible to remove the wheel bearing with a normal universal puller? And what tools can you use to attach the new wheel bearing to the axle?
Unfortunately, the tools used in the manual no longer exist.

Edited by Todd 2020-01-22 11:32 AM
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Powerflite
Posted 2020-01-22 12:40 PM (#593323 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective



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There is a tool specifically made to remove them, but I don't recommend you do it. Take it to a professional to replace them. It is quite difficult to do safely without the proper, large tools. And most of the time, the bearings don't need to be replaced. Inspect them carefully for any wear or chips in balls. If they look good, just clean & repack them and reuse them.

Edited by Powerflite 2020-01-22 12:43 PM
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Todd
Posted 2020-01-22 1:00 PM (#593324 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective


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Okay i got it, but i'll have to put a new bearing on, because i'll replace the old shaft with a "new" one. Just bought a used drive shaft, but without the bearing. But i would follow your advice and take it to a professional.
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Todd
Posted 2020-01-23 10:15 AM (#593350 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective


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Hmmmm......If I have pulled the axle, should I definitely replace the inner oil seal, no matter what condition it is in?
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Powerflite
Posted 2020-01-23 11:01 AM (#593351 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective



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Usually the rubber is pretty hard and needs replacing. If it is still soft and pliable, and the circumferential spring is still in place, you could leave it.
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wizard
Posted 2020-01-23 11:10 AM (#593352 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective



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Actually, the biggest risk to damage the inner seal is when you pull out or push in the drive axle.
Just change both seals while you're at it.
You'll find them at decent prices on RockAuto.com
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Todd
Posted 2020-01-27 11:58 AM (#593462 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective


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OK thanks a lot.
There are two kinds of inner oil seals available. With posi trac and without posi trac. What is the proper oil seal for my '60 Dart?

Edited by Todd 2020-01-27 11:59 AM
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wizard
Posted 2020-01-27 1:26 PM (#593466 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective



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That depends on if you have a Sure-grip differential or not. If you turn one of the rear wheels and the other one turns in the opposit direction it means that you don't have a Sure-grip differential.

On the other hand, if both wheels turns in the same direction, then you have a Sure-grip differential.

Posi trac means the same as Sure-grip, which in turn means differential brake.

My guess is that it will be the same seal as the rear axle is the same with or without Sure-grip (it's all in the differential). but for to be sure, check what you have and order accordingly.
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Todd
Posted 2020-01-27 1:49 PM (#593470 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective


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Again wizard - great advice, well explained!! In my case, no sure-grip. Again...thank you very much!!
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Todd
Posted 2020-01-28 9:19 AM (#593504 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective


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For pulling one axle shaft, it doesn't matter that the car is jacked up just on one (passenger-) side, right?

Edited by Todd 2020-01-28 9:22 AM
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wizard
Posted 2020-01-28 9:46 AM (#593505 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective



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No Todd the axles doesn't have mechanical contact other than the thrust block in the differential so you can pull out one axle at the time.
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Todd
Posted 2020-01-28 11:01 AM (#593509 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective


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I think I owe you a crate of beer at some point I will definitely have more questions from time to time. Then at some point it becomes a truck full of beer Thank you very much!
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wizard
Posted 2020-01-29 6:32 AM (#593549 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective



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You're welcome Todd, this forum has a welth of knowledge and the members are willing to share.
For me, it's enough if you do the same.
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Old Ray
Posted 2020-01-29 8:31 AM (#593552 - in reply to #593509)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective



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Todd - 2020-01-28 9:01 AM I think I owe you a crate of beer at some point I will definitely have more questions from time to time. Then at some point it becomes a truck full of beer Thank you very much!

If you are going to ship American beer to Sweden (slightly redundant) the freight will be a real killer!
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Todd
Posted 2020-01-29 1:26 PM (#593559 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective


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Hey. I got the axle shaft out. Can you please tell me which front side the oil seal comes into the axle housing. The side labeled toward thrust block or the unlabeled side toward thrust block?

https://show.picr.de/37766005wg.jpg.html][img]https://thumbs.picr.de...

https://show.picr.de/37766003pa.jpg.html][img]https://thumbs.picr.de...

Thanks in advance for help.

BTW...I have to saw through the defective axle shaft to save the backing plate and the support plate. The hub could not be removed even with a heavy puller. Is it possible to do this with a normal handsaw (hacksaw)? There is not enough space for a power cutter.

https://show.picr.de/37766244un.jpg.html][img]https://thumbs.picr.de...


Oh,,,,,and where can i buy those axle shaft shims to set the end play ?????


Edited by Todd 2020-01-29 2:16 PM
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Powerflite
Posted 2020-01-29 2:17 PM (#593560 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective



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Put the axle back into the housing to support it. Then use a better puller. You can't cut the shaft with a saw because it is hardened steel, the same as the saw. But it wouldn't do you any good anyway because you are going to have to pull that hub eventually, and the more you hack it up, the harder it will become to get it off. Use a good puller like the ones sold by Blue Point or Snap on in this link. If it still won't budge, you can apply a small amount of heat to the hub while it is under pressure.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Snap-On-4-Leg-H-D-Hub-Drum-Wheel-Puller-Sna...

Are you sure that's the right seal? It doesn't look right to me. That looks like a pinion seal instead. But the lip of the rubber seal that sticks up inside it, goes inside, toward the gears.





(Snap On Hub Puller.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments Snap On Hub Puller.jpg (118KB - 65 downloads)
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Todd
Posted 2020-01-29 2:51 PM (#593565 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective


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Thanks for advice. But i don't like to buy another puller at the time. I'll try it first with a hydraulic press.

The seal i bought is the National 450776 https://www.rockauto.com/de/moreinfo.php?pk=255202&cc=1331110&jsn=45...
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Todd
Posted 2020-01-30 8:41 AM (#593600 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective


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Hi. Does anyone know where proper shims (backing plate to axle flange) are available?
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wizard
Posted 2020-01-30 8:56 AM (#593602 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective



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Todd, just wait because normally when you mount new bearings you could have to remove some shims.
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Todd
Posted 2020-01-30 10:35 AM (#593603 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective


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Hi wizard. I asked because no shim was attached to the flange. Unfortunately not even one.
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wizard
Posted 2020-01-30 1:18 PM (#593610 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective



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It's plausible that someone (wrongly) put all shims in on the other side Todd - take a small steelbrush and a flashlight and check.
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Todd
Posted 2020-01-30 1:51 PM (#593617 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective


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Please excuse me, I do mean the shims look like these: https://dcmclassics.com/bearings-races-and-seals/1210-bs-3522-outer-...
Unfortunately, there was not a single one on the axle that i could re-use. The backing plate was attached directly to the axle housing, with no shims in between. Therefore I would very much like to know where you can order suitable shims. After a long search I have now found those in the link above. At least visually they are the same. I don't know if they will fit. If you would say YES, i would order.
It is very embarrassing to me and my English language is not the best, but I do not understand what to do with a flashlight and a steel brush ... and it is uncomfortable to always ask, but you are my only and best knowledge database :D
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wizard
Posted 2020-01-30 2:13 PM (#593619 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective



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Yes Todd, those are the shims I mean.
If you look on the other side, on the back of the dust shield, where the dust shield meets the axle tube/flange, you should be able to see if there are a pack of shims mounted.
If the area is very dirty, then you use the steel brush.

So check first of all if you have any shims
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Todd
Posted 2020-01-30 2:22 PM (#593620 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective


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Ah i got it ))) No wizard, definetivly no shim(s), not even one at the plate or the axle flange. There is no shim to be found anywhere.
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wizard
Posted 2020-01-30 2:36 PM (#593621 - in reply to #593148)
Subject: Re: Thread of the thru axle is defective



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Strange, but the more worn bearings, the lesser shims needed. That could mean that the axle bore is slightly too deep.

The shims was the method to adjust the bearings with variations in the axle bores.
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