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Trying to pound a stake in the heart of two persistent 56 D500 myths
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-01-25 3:59 PM (#593387)
Subject: Trying to pound a stake in the heart of two persistent 56 D500 myths



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I love my 56 Dodge D500 Custom Royal 4dr sedan and have gathered lots of (but not all) available information about the 56 D500 cars. Two "myths" that come up again and again in various magazine articles about the 56 D500 are that 1) all the D500 cars got "Imperial Brakes" and 2) it was D500s that were used by the AAA to set 306 endurance and speed records over a 14 day period out on the Bonneville salt flats in the fall of 1955. Both of these "myths" are wrong.

I think that I might have killed, or at least wounded, the "Imperial Brakes" myth in a post that I did a week or so ago wherein I use the parts manuals from the day (55-58 and 56) to "prove" (seriously imply) that there might have been Imperial brakes on D500 cars but, if any thing, those would have been D500s built to race, e.g. NASCAR, not for the street cars. The non-NASCAR race D500 cars got the 12" x 2.5" Chrysler center plane brakes and drums and wider wheels but they were on 4.5" bolt circle hubs and therefore were not Imperial which used 5.5" bolt circle hubs and wheels. I hope that is clear.

REFERENCE (the complete 56 D500 brake post): http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=73076&...

The second myth should have been easier to kill but I saw it again in a recent D500 magazine article. The D500 was *NOT* the engine used in the September 10-24th, 1955 AAA record run. The engine in the record breaking 56 Dodge Custom Royal Sedans was the 230 hp 4bbl dual exhaust "Power Pack" Super Powered-Super Red Ram 315 cu in polyspherical engine. This clear in both magazine articles and advertising from late 1955 and early 1956 (which I have previously posted and repeat again below). The cincher is the casting dates of the first run of D500 engines, i.e. November 22, 1955 for D500-1003. Hard to be in a car in September, 1955 when you weren't even cast until November 1955.

One page from the Feb 56 issue of Motorsport Magazine (establishes the September 1955 date(s) of the endurance run):



An advert from the Feb 56 issue of Motorsport Magazine that states that the engine was the 230 hp (the 315 4 bbl poly):



REFERENCE (for the above two pages): http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=67189&...

The more recent compilation of 56 D500 engine numbers with available casting dates and/or build dates including Nov. 22, 1955 for engine no. D500-1003



REFERENCE for the D500 engine number table: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=71896&...

So I *THINK* that I killed both "myths".

HA.

Yesterday, I was poking around looking for something and I found the source of the second myth: Dodge's advertising department and this July 1956 advert which, while it doesn't actually say that the D500 was the endurance record car, it doesn't say that it was the 230 hp poly either (ambiguity will get us all killed someday). Be that as it may, it wasn't the D500 that set those records :










Edited by 56D500boy 2020-01-25 6:45 PM




(56DodgeDynamiteAdvert.jpg)



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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2020-01-25 10:19 PM (#593396 - in reply to #593387)
Subject: RE: Trying to pound a stake in the heart of two persistent 56 D500 myths



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I hate to piss on your parade, but as correct as you might be, there is an endless
supply of stupid and lazy people in this world to perpetuate any information out there.

Try this experiment .... start telling a story (that is absurdly wrong) about D500's
and just watch it become "fact", ... a fire you start, but that will forever be part of
the stories floating around out there.

Keep up the fight, but know what you are up against. Hehehehe !
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miquelonbrad
Posted 2020-01-26 1:06 PM (#593411 - in reply to #593387)
Subject: RE: Trying to pound a stake in the heart of two persistent 56 D500 myths



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LOL! What Doc says it totally correct, even though you are correct too!

When I show people my cars, or chat about them at events...the stories I hear! " Oh, yeah, my Uncle's cousin twice removed owned a ____ with a hemi ____ " I have learned to control rolling my eyes, otherwise they would be in the back of my head permanently by now.
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-01-26 1:30 PM (#593414 - in reply to #593396)
Subject: RE: Trying to pound a stake in the heart of two persistent 56 D500 myths



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Doctor DeSoto - 2020-01-25 7:19 PM Try this experiment .... start telling a story (that is absurdly wrong) about D500's
and just watch it become "fact", ... a fire you start, but that will forever be part of
the stories floating around out there.


I won't do that. I've already bumped into lots stuff that I have posted when I am looking for something 56 Dodge-related using Google. Kind of scary to see your posts "quoted" in a different context.



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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2020-01-26 4:57 PM (#593421 - in reply to #593414)
Subject: RE: Trying to pound a stake in the heart of two persistent 56 D500 myths



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"Citing reliable sources, the 1956 Dodge D503 was offered as a race
package to both drag and oval track racers, starting in March of 1956.
Pete Bonerbreath was in charge of marketing and development of the
highly secretive program. Archive research has shown the D503 package
included a very warmed up Chrysler 354 Hemi as a starting point, with
special suspension for high speed cornering and triple-wall tires specially
developed by Goodrich to handle the side stresses at speed. Braking was
done with the then-unheard of four wheel disc brakes, designed and supplied
by Kelsey-Hayes just for the project. 19 cars were ordered and delivered
in six body styles before the 1957 program ended the project."

How's that ?
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miquelonbrad
Posted 2020-01-26 5:31 PM (#593423 - in reply to #593387)
Subject: Re: Trying to pound a stake in the heart of two persistent 56 D500 myths



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HAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-01-26 6:22 PM (#593424 - in reply to #593421)
Subject: RE: Trying to pound a stake in the heart of two persistent 56 D500 myths



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Too late Doc, that mythical horse has already left the barn. Actually 365 of them in this 354 2 x 4 bbl powered "rare" 56 D500.

The car is being advertised for sale on ClassicCars.com by a private seller in Clay, New York. The seller says:

“I was told by the previous owner the engine is original,” the seller says in that advertisement. “It carries the 354 cu. in. engine which is rare in the 1956, originally it was a push button automatic, now a 4-speed manual, 2×4 bbl carb, tachometer, tinted glass, custom wheels, custom air cleaner, chrome valve covers.”

The seller adds that the original orange valve covers remain available for an engine that was an option for Chrysler’s 300B muscle car.

REFERENCE: https://journal.classiccars.com/2019/08/08/this-1956-dodge-is-a-trib...





Edited by 56D500boy 2020-01-27 8:44 AM
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DEH
Posted 2020-01-26 9:21 PM (#593443 - in reply to #593387)
Subject: Re: Trying to pound a stake in the heart of two persistent 56 D500 myths



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Dave, after you get done with the 1956 D-500 myths, will you be ready to tackle the 1957 D-500 myths? For example, "The Illustrated Directory of Muscle Cars" (2013) states that the 1957 Dodge D-500 option was the 354 Hemi (which was actually the D-501). There is a starting point for you!

Don H.
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22mafeja
Posted 2020-01-27 3:28 AM (#593446 - in reply to #593387)
Subject: RE: Trying to pound a stake in the heart of two persistent 56 D500 myths


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Dave , the pearl of truth is a underestimated jewel ..
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-01-28 3:40 PM (#593523 - in reply to #593387)
Subject: RE: Trying to pound a stake in the heart of two persistent 56 D500 myths



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A couple of more pounds on the AAA record stake, thanks to Gary R.

Salt Lake City News Bulletin regarding the 306 AAA records



Edited by 56D500boy 2020-01-28 3:44 PM




(SaltLakeCitySaltFlatsSpecialNewsBulletinSept1955_1.jpg)



(SaltLakeCitySaltFlatsSpecialNewsBulletinSept1955_2.jpg)



(SaltLakeCitySaltFlatsSpecialNewsBulletinSept1955_3.jpg)



(SaltLakeCitySaltFlatsSpecialNewsBulletinSept1955_4.jpg)



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56D500boy
Posted 2020-01-29 4:40 PM (#593570 - in reply to #593523)
Subject: RE: Trying to pound a stake in the heart of two persistent 56 D500 myths



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I think I found the source of at least one of the myths, the D500 at Bonneville in Sept 1955: Allpar in their D500 section.

WHAAATT??? I imagined that Allpar was the source of the truth not myths.

Anybody know how to get Allpar to correct an error?



Edited by 56D500boy 2020-01-29 6:05 PM




(AllparsErrorRED500AndAAARecords.jpg)



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56D500boy
Posted 2020-02-03 3:59 PM (#593772 - in reply to #593570)
Subject: RE: Trying to pound a stake in the heart of two persistent 56 D500 myths



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56D500boy - 2020-01-29 1:40 PM
I think I found the source of at least one of the myths, the D500 at Bonneville in Sept 1955: Allpar in their D500 section.
WHAAATT??? I imagined that Allpar was the source of the truth not myths.

Anybody know how to get Allpar to correct an error?


Finally found the last big hammer and stake to kill the D500 Bonneville myth: A D500 advert from probably March or April 1956. Now I really want to take Allpar to task.

This:



Edited by 56D500boy 2020-02-03 4:01 PM




(D500 - most powerful Dodge ever built 1_corrected_small.jpg)



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wizard
Posted 2020-02-03 4:16 PM (#593773 - in reply to #593387)
Subject: Re: Trying to pound a stake in the heart of two persistent 56 D500 myths



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Allpar has many errors on their site, but I don't know how to contact the guys behind.
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NicksGarage
Posted 2020-02-03 4:42 PM (#593774 - in reply to #593387)
Subject: Re: Trying to pound a stake in the heart of two persistent 56 D500 myths



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It used to be really easy to contact them about content. I used to submit corrections all the time and they would even mention me in the article as the provider of the correction.

For instance on this page, https://www.allpar.com/corporate/factories.html, they had a statement asking why the Belvedere car name was spelled differently than the town of Belvidere. I let them know that the Plymouth names were actually named after hotels. Savoy, Plaza, Belvedere. They listed me in the credits of the page and made the correction.


Here is their contact form now. Be sure to provide the address of the page you're talking about, much easier for them to know what you're talking about.

https://www.allpar.com/forums/misc/contact



Edited by NicksGarage 2020-02-03 4:47 PM
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CaprockClassics
Posted 2020-02-03 7:45 PM (#593780 - in reply to #593387)
Subject: Re: Trying to pound a stake in the heart of two persistent 56 D500 myths



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When I was first going to car shows with my dad (Pre-internet), we heard a story from an old timer that back in the day there was a fire at the Dodge plant and they lost all the build records on the 1956-61 Dodges, so there was no way to document D500 cars or special orders. Needless to say, about 10yrs ago, I began doing my own research and quickly proved this myth false, but all it took back in the day was the word of a self proclaimed "expert" at a car show.

~Peter
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-02-03 8:16 PM (#593783 - in reply to #593774)
Subject: Re: Trying to pound a stake in the heart of two persistent 56 D500 myths



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NicksGarage - 2020-02-03 1:42 PM
Here is their contact form now. Be sure to provide the address of the page you're talking about, much easier for them to know what you're talking about.
https://www.allpar.com/forums/misc/contact


Thanks Nick. I just used that link to contact them, flagging the html of the page in question and the specific text. Now I just have to wait to see if they are interested in correcting their error.

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Dash One
Posted 2020-02-03 10:52 PM (#593785 - in reply to #593783)
Subject: Re: Trying to pound a stake in the heart of two persistent 56 D500 myths


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There were D500-1 cars built with Imperial brakes and other Imperial parts.
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-02-03 11:05 PM (#593786 - in reply to #593785)
Subject: Re: Trying to pound a stake in the heart of two persistent 56 D500 myths



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Dash One - 2020-02-03 7:52 PM
There were D500-1 cars built with Imperial brakes and other Imperial parts.


Tim: I've been trying to get a hold of you for weeks now. Check you email and messages here.

I agree that the race-oriented 56 Dodge D500s (some of which were like yours a D500-1 with 2 x 4bbls, and others that just got the D500-1 chassis but only a single 4 bbl) probably got the Imperial brakes, hubs and knuckles, etc. However, the civilian D500s probably only got the 12 x 2.5" on 4.5" bolt circle Chrysler Windsor, etc. brakes.

I think I did a good job of showing that in this thread:

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=73076&...

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Dash One
Posted 2020-02-03 11:23 PM (#593787 - in reply to #593786)
Subject: Re: Trying to pound a stake in the heart of two persistent 56 D500 myths


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Hi Dave yeah I'm sorry it's been a while since I've posted or looked at the website.... but I'm still out there
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Dash One
Posted 2020-02-05 11:29 AM (#593836 - in reply to #593787)
Subject: Re: Trying to pound a stake in the heart of two persistent 56 D500 myths


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Dave I'd like to share some facts I have uncovered while researching D500 cars
One myth that sometimes gets repeated as fact :that all two four-barrel engines were dealer installed components ie...the parts were "in the trunk". To totally put this notion to rest I was able to get a interview on DVD with NASCAR racer Bernie Hengtes who was recruited by Dodge to drive a D500 - 1 he states that he traded his regular D500 for a factory prepared two four-barrel D500 - 1, toured the assembly line, and drove it home from Detroit to Minnesota. While many cars were retrofitted because of the late introduction of these parts I have been able to verify other examples including mine, this along with other research I have compiled supports that there were ultimately several cars that were two four-barrel prepared and delivered. My build record includes the code for factory drive away and another D500-1 in Missouri states it was delivered by rail. Furthermore I have a picture of Lee Petty receiving a D500-1 at the factory, the photo shows him in front of the open hood and the large two four Barrel air cleaner is clear to see. The bottom line is although rare and Very Expensive after March 9th 1956 a two four-barrel D500 - 1 version was available to anyone.
With NASCAR and other organized racing forms becoming important to manufacturers Dodge took advantage of rules that allowed new parts to be introduced to the public and after a waiting period being allowed on race cars. This led to many late options that are hard to verify their existence and confirm that they actually made it to production. A few examples that I have verified are, the complete 276 horsepower engine assembly, the large two and a half inch exhaust system ( the manifolds which unlike the Chrysler versions we're not used on trucks), the large 8 inch wide wheels, and the taxi export manual transmission. I have the parts list for the D500 - 1 released by Dodge late in 55 and several update versions as more options became available through model year, these part lists were acquired by Dennis Kennedy from Danny Eames himself the Dodge test driver who developed many of these options. I am quite grateful to Dennis Kennedy for sharing all his research and documents pertaining to the D500. There is quite a bit there to go through and it's quite exhausting so it's hard to share in its whole scope, but I can help with most questions regarding the D500 for 1956. Feel free to contact me if you would like more information. Thanks Tim
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-02-05 5:15 PM (#593853 - in reply to #593836)
Subject: Re: Trying to pound a stake in the heart of two persistent 56 D500 myths



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Tim: Great info. Thanks very much.

I am planning a D500-1 write-up (mostly about the parts that were used) so that is great info. I will need you to comment on what I post either after or perhaps better if I run it by you first.

In the very short term, I emailed you last night with some D500 questions.

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GregCon
Posted 2020-02-05 7:41 PM (#593859 - in reply to #593387)
Subject: Re: Trying to pound a stake in the heart of two persistent 56 D500 myths



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Indeed. Just today I was walking past a schoolyard and saw a group of kids had taken sides and were having a very heated argument over the 1956 D-500's use of Imperial brakes. Both sides were fierce in their stance. I fear this issue will never be laid to rest. lol
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2020-02-09 1:14 AM (#593971 - in reply to #593859)
Subject: Re: Trying to pound a stake in the heart of two persistent 56 D500 myths



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They seemed to be pretty worked up over making couches out of them too.
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-02-09 2:32 AM (#593972 - in reply to #593971)
Subject: Re: Trying to pound a stake in the heart of two persistent 56 D500 myths



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Doctor DeSoto - 2020-02-08 10:14 PM
They seemed to be pretty worked up over making couches out of them too.


I think this D500 Custom Royal sedan must have the Imperial brakes because it was a cop car after all.



Edited by 56D500boy 2020-02-09 2:34 AM




(56DodgeCRD500Furniture.jpg)



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mikes2nd
Posted 2020-02-09 12:57 PM (#593979 - in reply to #593387)
Subject: Re: Trying to pound a stake in the heart of two persistent 56 D500 myths


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Pick your battles wisely someone said? If Jay Leno does a 56 D500 all your work will be destroyed utterly in 5 minutes...
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2020-02-09 11:56 PM (#593997 - in reply to #593979)
Subject: Re: Trying to pound a stake in the heart of two persistent 56 D500 myths



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Unless, of course, you get an invite to be on Jay's show as the resident expert,
where you DRIVE that stake into the heart of these dastardly myths once and for
all !!!!
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