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Fender to Inner Shield Connection Question - 56 Dodge
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-02-16 7:22 PM (#594384)
Subject: Fender to Inner Shield Connection Question - 56 Dodge



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I am out in my slightly heated 12 x 20 garage, out of the rain, with the hood open cleaning the engine bay when I decide to remove the bolts that hold the top of the fender to (??). Initially I think that there is a frame or something (having never removed a fender from a 56 Dodge). Came into the house and consulted my resources, in this case The Collision Damage Book (which I have). See below.

Now I see that the fender is likely attached to the inner splash shield (or vice versa). (??)

So the real question is "Does the inner shield have captured nuts welded to the shield, or are there separate nuts?". I am turning the bolts out (7/16" socket) and initially they are coming out nicely but about 1/8" out, the torque gets scary as in I will snap this little bolt if I crank the ratchet harder. Or is it just rusty threads that are trying to be turned through a captured nuts.

Sorry, I asked for X-ray vision for Christmas, but Santa just brought me coal.



Edited by 56D500boy 2020-02-16 8:44 PM




(56DodgeFenderDiagram.JPG)



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Attachments 56DodgeFenderDiagram.JPG (210KB - 8 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-02-16 11:13 PM (#594390 - in reply to #594384)
Subject: RE: Fender to Inner Shield Connection Question - 56 Dodge



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Figured it out. Must be a captured nut on the top edge of the splash shield. I got a couple of bolts out about 1/8" and then started spraying Lloyd's MOOVIT (with the red straw) into the threads and working the bolt in and out (pausing and adding more MOOVIT several times). Eventually I got one bolt out. Then I could see the captured nut.

However, I don't think that the nuts are welded into the splash shield I think that they just sit into a punched slot and, if I torque the reluctant bolts too much, I think that the nut might spin (NOT a good thing). So I got three out of 5 or 6 out. One is really putting up resistance so I've left them over night with MOOVIT to see if that helps.

Every one of the bolts I got out = disintegrated internal star lock washer. Now to get the right size and replace them.

UPDATE:

*IMPATIENCE IS NOT A VIRTUE* Went out to the garage after the evening meal (and clean up) and decided to try that one bolt that didn't want to come out. I was only using a very small 1/4" drive ratchet and socket and I thought I had it under control......Right up to the point that I snapped the bolt. I just laughed (silently) at myself ("IDIOT!")

The good news is (there really isn't any ) there is enough of the broken bolt exposed to slot it with my Dremel and then use a screw driver to turn the stub end *INTO* the fender (it will fall out the back). The bit with the 7/16" hex head is long enough to test for the thread count, etc. It is also clear that the bolt came with a captured internal tooth star washer so something pretty unique (and therefore will be difficult to find)





Edited by 56D500boy 2020-02-17 2:10 AM
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22mafeja
Posted 2020-02-17 3:10 AM (#594396 - in reply to #594390)
Subject: RE: Fender to Inner Shield Connection Question - 56 Dodge


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Send a photo of the bolt. I have an assortment of 55-56 bolts and nuts, some rezinced. If I find a couple you could have them for free...
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-02-17 4:07 PM (#594420 - in reply to #594396)
Subject: RE: Fender to Inner Shield Connection Question - 56 Dodge



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22mafeja - 2020-02-17 12:10 AM
Send a photo of the bolt. I have an assortment of 55-56 bolts and nuts, some rezinced. If I find a couple you could have them for free...


Thanks for the offer Ralf. I will take you up on that if you happen to find any original 56 Mopar fender bolts.

They seem to be 1/4" x 20 threads/inch x about 7/8 long. The inner star captured lock washer is 3/4" in diameter.

I went to my local autoparts store that handles Auveco automotive hardware (rebranded in Canada as GENO Industries). Closest I could buy there was GENO 11-9480 (Auveco 9480) which have the right thread but are 1" long and the washer is only 5/8" diameter. I see now that they (Auveco and GENO) theoretically have a 1/4" x20 x 7/8" long with a 3/4" washer under the PN 10823. Didn't see any this morning.

So Ralf, you can be "Plan A" and the Auveco/Geno 10823s can be "Plan B". In the meantime, I will use the 9480s where needed (for now)

The new ones will be installed with a bit of Neversieze

The next question will be paint (fender colour) or raw black phosphate. I am leaning towards fender colour (Wedgewood Blue in my case)



Edited by 56D500boy 2020-02-17 9:26 PM




(56DodgeFenderBoltsOEBrokenOENoWasherAuveco9480TooLong_1.jpg)



(56DodgeFenderBoltsOEBrokenOENoWasherAuveco9480TooLong_2.jpg)



(GenoIndustriesCataloguePageFeaturing10823and9480FenderBolts.jpg)



(Auveco9480Details.jpg)



(Auveco10823Details.jpg)



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Attachments 56DodgeFenderBoltsOEBrokenOENoWasherAuveco9480TooLong_1.jpg (118KB - 7 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgeFenderBoltsOEBrokenOENoWasherAuveco9480TooLong_2.jpg (120KB - 9 downloads)
Attachments GenoIndustriesCataloguePageFeaturing10823and9480FenderBolts.jpg (150KB - 9 downloads)
Attachments Auveco9480Details.jpg (77KB - 7 downloads)
Attachments Auveco10823Details.jpg (72KB - 7 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-02-17 9:39 PM (#594439 - in reply to #594420)
Subject: RE: Fender to Inner Shield Connection Question - 56 Dodge



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Found a source of the shorter 10823 1/4" x 20 fender bolts that I will get tomorrow. In the meantime, I went out to try to remove the bolt that broke. My slotting trick failed so I decided to turn it in to the wheel well from inside the wheel well. Had to raise the car (or remove the right front wheel) to get clearance to the back side of the fender bolt. Using vise grips attached as hard as I could muster, that bolt would not budge. After several tries, I inadvertently ended up breaking the metal that was holding the captured nut. (INSERT string of expletives of your choice here - mine were Scottish and were four lettered ).

Came into the house and began the search for new captured nut. Looks like what I would want was an Auveco 5586. Couldn't find them locally. Contacted GENO Industries in Montreal but because it is a holiday in many provinces ("Family Day") no response. So I went back to LORDCO and found a 2-2293 J-type 1/4" x 20 "Captured Nut" (just a pressed/stamped piece of metal).

Pried out the old broken captured nut bits (by this time there were two) and pried the top of the splash shield enough to install two of the 2-2293 nut clips. Added the too long 9480 bolts for now and called it a day. Tomorrow I hope to get the 10823 bolts and hear back from GENO about the Auveco 5586 captured nuts.

Some photos from this afternoon (NOTE: The wet dribble is from the Lloyd's Moovit that I was spraying from the engine bay side to try to loosen the bolts up):



Edited by 56D500boy 2020-02-17 11:24 PM




(OECapturedFenderNutOnLeftAndBrokenOECapturedFenderNutOnRight.jpg)



(Auveco5586_J_TypeCageNutOneQuarterBy20_Details.jpg)



(GENOIndustries2-2293StampedOneQuarterBy20CapturedNutSortOf.jpg)



(New9480FenderBoltIn2-2293StampedCapturedNutSortOf.jpg)



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Attachments OECapturedFenderNutOnLeftAndBrokenOECapturedFenderNutOnRight.jpg (204KB - 7 downloads)
Attachments Auveco5586_J_TypeCageNutOneQuarterBy20_Details.jpg (77KB - 7 downloads)
Attachments GENOIndustries2-2293StampedOneQuarterBy20CapturedNutSortOf.jpg (87KB - 7 downloads)
Attachments New9480FenderBoltIn2-2293StampedCapturedNutSortOf.jpg (231KB - 6 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-02-18 4:48 PM (#594484 - in reply to #594439)
Subject: RE: Fender to Inner Shield Connection Question - 56 Dodge



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UPDATES:

1. GENO Industries replied to my 5586 captured nut enquiry: They have them but nobody out here in the Vancouver BC area has ordered them since 2015 and even then, it wasn't that many. So I will have to special order if I really want them (which I probably do).

2. Went to where they were supposed to have "39" 10823 1/4" x 20 x 7/8" with 3/4" washer bolts (I thought "39" was going to be 39, 4 bolt bubble packs, nope, 39 in bulk). SO I bought 12 (about $0.43 each). I'll paint them Wedgewood blue before installing them.







(Auveco10823FenderBoltsInBulk.jpg)



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Attachments Auveco10823FenderBoltsInBulk.jpg (150KB - 8 downloads)
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GaryS
Posted 2020-02-18 9:19 PM (#594493 - in reply to #594384)
Subject: Re: Fender to Inner Shield Connection Question - 56 Dodge



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My '56 Plymouth had common Lowes-stocked 1/4-20 clip nuts on the inner fender. I don't have a parts manual, but I didn't find any of the captive nut variety anywhere on the car when I tore it down.
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-02-18 9:41 PM (#594495 - in reply to #594493)
Subject: Re: Fender to Inner Shield Connection Question - 56 Dodge



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GaryS - 2020-02-18 6:19 PM
My '56 Plymouth had common Lowes-stocked 1/4-20 clip nuts on the inner fender. I don't have a parts manual, but I didn't find any of the captive nut variety anywhere on the car when I tore it down.


Interesting. I definitely have some captured (square) nuts on my LA-built 56 Dodge. I haven't checked the driver's side. See photo from the passenger side, below.

I presume the Lowes ones are "Hillman" brand like this (I can't tell how far it is from the bend in the clip to the center of the threaded hole. I think it needs to be about 1/2".

https://www.lowes.ca/product/spring-nuts/hillman-14-in-20-black-phos...








(OECapturedFenderNutOnLABuilt56Dodge.jpg)



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56D500boy
Posted 2020-02-19 2:04 AM (#594502 - in reply to #594495)
Subject: Re: Fender to Inner Shield Connection Question - 56 Dodge



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Found the likely source of the Lowes/Hillman U-clip: H. Paulin/Papco, the 240-614 (listed for GMs but the size is right) as well as an Auveco equivalent to the Lowes/Hillman clip, the Auveco 24487. Something else to seek out:



Edited by 56D500boy 2020-02-19 2:21 AM




(PapcoPaulinHillman240-614UNut.jpg)



(Auveco24487Details.jpg)



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Attachments PapcoPaulinHillman240-614UNut.jpg (97KB - 7 downloads)
Attachments Auveco24487Details.jpg (76KB - 7 downloads)
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GaryS
Posted 2020-02-19 7:39 AM (#594507 - in reply to #594384)
Subject: Re: Fender to Inner Shield Connection Question - 56 Dodge



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Yes, those are the type I had on my Plymouth, and I think the depth was 1/2". If the rain holds off this morning, I'll check my '56 Fury parts car to see what it has. As far as I know, it's original. I've been amazed at the number of differences between my two cars. Grille parts, window moldings, hood latch, just to name a few.
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22mafeja
Posted 2020-02-19 8:07 AM (#594508 - in reply to #594507)
Subject: Re: Fender to Inner Shield Connection Question - 56 Dodge


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Hello Dave , I found four good bolts as described. Is there anything else
you might need? I have a lot of stuff left from my two 56 dodge projects
and I am trying to get some space in my shelves so just send pictures of bolts , nuts ,
clips or whatever you might need.
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-02-19 10:55 AM (#594511 - in reply to #594508)
Subject: Re: Fender to Inner Shield Connection Question - 56 Dodge



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Ralf: Thanks. Check your gmail. Definitely interested in at least those 4 bolts.

Dave F.
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GaryS
Posted 2020-02-19 5:15 PM (#594527 - in reply to #594384)
Subject: Re: Fender to Inner Shield Connection Question - 56 Dodge



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Dave, my '56 Fury parts car has the same type as you have...similar to, or the same as the AP5586 cage nut picture. Somewhere in the past, about half of them were twisted off.
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-02-19 6:11 PM (#594530 - in reply to #594527)
Subject: Re: Fender to Inner Shield Connection Question - 56 Dodge



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GaryS - 2020-02-19 2:15 PM
Dave, my '56 Fury parts car has the same type as you have...similar to, or the same as the AP5586 cage nut picture. Somewhere in the past, about half of them were twisted off.


I just found out that I can buy a box of 50 of the 5586 for about CDN$36 plus taxes. (That is is smallest quantity that Lordco will bring in from GENO in Montreal). US prices from Auveco might be better.

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22mafeja
Posted 2020-02-20 11:24 AM (#594567 - in reply to #594530)
Subject: Re: Fender to Inner Shield Connection Question - 56 Dodge


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Dave I have two flawless original fender edge cagenuts if you want . I don`t know how many you need, I might find more of them...
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-02-20 12:22 PM (#594570 - in reply to #594567)
Subject: Re: Fender to Inner Shield Connection Question - 56 Dodge



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22mafeja - 2020-02-20 8:24 AM
Dave I have two flawless original fender edge cagenuts if you want . I don`t know how many you need, I might find more of them...


At this point, I have only broken two of the originals. So what you have would be great, if you have more, all the better.

I know now what the problem was. I was trying to pull the bolt through the nut but the threads on the bolt were covered with tar undercoating and it created too much torque on the bolt = snap. In the future I will clean the bolt from the inner fender side first.

However, my inner fender will never look as good as this one (your's I believe, Ralf):



Edited by 56D500boy 2020-02-20 12:33 PM




(RalfNs56CoronetAfterResoration_small.jpg)



(RalfsRestored56Coronet2drPostInnerFender.jpg)



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Attachments RalfNs56CoronetAfterResoration_small.jpg (226KB - 7 downloads)
Attachments RalfsRestored56Coronet2drPostInnerFender.jpg (118KB - 7 downloads)
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