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Any detailed (and accurate) articles about the development of the Hemi?
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-03-15 4:21 PM (#595620)
Subject: Any detailed (and accurate) articles about the development of the Hemi?



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I just read the article in the latest Hagerty magazine about the development of the 1955 265 cu in small block Chevy and enjoyed it. I would love to read a similarly detailed (and accurate) article about the development of the early (51) Chrysler, (52) Desoto and (53) Dodge hemi engines. I have the book "Hemi - The Ultimate American V-8" by Robert Genat but the level of detail that I am seeking is just not there.

Any suggestions?

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Powerflite
Posted 2020-03-15 5:15 PM (#595622 - in reply to #595620)
Subject: Re: Any detailed (and accurate) articles about the development of the Hemi?



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It was developed during world war II as a high performance V16 engine for aircraft before the advent of the jet engine. There was also an experimental V12 tank engine as well. There is quite a bit written about it, but I don't know of a concise source. Here is an article to whet your whistle.

https://www.allpar.com/mopar/hemi-aircraft.html



Edited by Powerflite 2020-03-15 5:48 PM
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-03-15 6:35 PM (#595628 - in reply to #595622)
Subject: Re: Any detailed (and accurate) articles about the development of the Hemi?



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Nathan: Thanks for that link. I read that about 3 years ago. Interesting but not enough detail for me (Sorry). I want to hear about wall thicknesses and hollow push rods and valve diameters, etc, etc.

BTW: After I learned your last name yesterday, I google you and was able to find your house with two 57 Chryslers on the driveway and the lot across and to the west. Big Brother is watching you.

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56D500boy
Posted 2020-03-15 7:27 PM (#595629 - in reply to #595628)
Subject: Re: Any detailed (and accurate) articles about the development of the Hemi?



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Via the allpar link, I think I found a book that might have the info that I want to read (or maybe own):

https://www.allpar.com/reviews/other/engines.html





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LD3 Greg
Posted 2020-03-15 10:59 PM (#595634 - in reply to #595629)
Subject: Re: Any detailed (and accurate) articles about the development of the Hemi?


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They should have shown a boat on the cover as well. The marine hemis used sodium cooled valves! Most of them have decals on the engines to indicate that.

Greg
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57burb
Posted 2020-03-16 10:49 AM (#595641 - in reply to #595634)
Subject: Re: Any detailed (and accurate) articles about the development of the Hemi?



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Do you mean a history of engines with hemispherical combustion chambers? Or a deep history of Chrysler's implementation?

Here's an allpar article that manages to hit some of the high notes of the history of hemispherical engine design. It may also possibly guide you on further research:
https://www.allpar.com/mopar/hemi/ardun.html
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-03-16 11:17 AM (#595643 - in reply to #595641)
Subject: Re: Any detailed (and accurate) articles about the development of the Hemi?



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Thanks Danny. That was a good read.

I guess that I am looking for a deep history of Chrysler's implementation.

One thing in the Allpar article that "bothered" me was:

"The Chrysler engine used pushrods, with self-adjusting hydraulic tappets to compensate for pushrod length changes as the temperature changed."

Unless you have a 56 D500 engine with solid lifters (like mine). Hope that I adjusted them correctly.

Some interesting Ardun info (including reference to hemispherical and "aircraft"):

And there is this:

"The same book mentioned says it appears the Ardun heads had "a littany of problems, D. Randy Riggs, in an Automobile Quaterly aticle on Ardun wrote: "It's cast-steel pushrods weighed the same as a connecting rod, and valve seats came loose from expansion differences of the aluminum and bronze materials. The stock Ardun valves were too heavy. Exhaust manifolds were constricted and head gaskets were a common failure. The
coke bottle shaped lifters were originally made from Buick components and had a tendancy to gall. Valve springs were inadequate. The two intake manifolds had no balance tube between them and were poorly designed. The spark plug tubes were a menace and the stock Ford ignition was not up to the task."""

REFERENCE: https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/blast-from-the-past-1947...









Edited by 56D500boy 2020-03-16 11:28 AM
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57burb
Posted 2020-03-16 11:25 AM (#595644 - in reply to #595643)
Subject: Re: Any detailed (and accurate) articles about the development of the Hemi?



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Well, they are talking about the earliest design, and for 1951 Chrysler's new Hemi used hydraulic lifters. The racey stuff came later.
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Powerflite
Posted 2020-03-16 11:34 AM (#595645 - in reply to #595628)
Subject: Re: Any detailed (and accurate) articles about the development of the Hemi?



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56D500boy - 2020-03-15 3:35 PM

...I want to hear about wall thicknesses and hollow push rods and valve diameters, etc, etc....



You need to make up your mind about what you want. You typically aren't going to find detailed history and detailed specs within the same book. And you aren't going to get wall thicknesses out of any book. Valve diameters are easy to look up.
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-03-16 1:34 PM (#595647 - in reply to #595645)
Subject: Re: Any detailed (and accurate) articles about the development of the Hemi?



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Powerflite - 2020-03-16 8:34 AM
56D500boy - 2020-03-15 3:35 PM
...I want to hear about wall thicknesses and hollow push rods and valve diameters, etc, etc....

You need to make up your mind about what you want. You typically aren't going to find detailed history and detailed specs within the same book. And you aren't going to get wall thicknesses out of any book. Valve diameters are easy to look up.


You're right. I guess I will have to get the Willem Weertman book and see if that is enough for me.

Interesting interview with Willem Weertman:

https://www.allpar.com/corporate/bios/weertman.html

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mstrug
Posted 2020-03-16 5:11 PM (#595650 - in reply to #595628)
Subject: Re: Any detailed (and accurate) articles about the development of the Hemi?



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56D500boy - 2020-03-15 5:35 PM

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Nathan: Thanks for that link. I read that about 3 years ago. Interesting but not enough detail for me (Sorry). I want to hear about wall thicknesses and hollow push rods and valve diameters, etc, etc.

BTW: After I learned your last name yesterday, I google you and was able to find your house with two 57 Chryslers on the driveway and the lot across and to the west. Big Brother is watching you.

:)


"I know where he keeps it"
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firedome
Posted 2020-03-17 10:11 AM (#595672 - in reply to #595620)
Subject: Re: Any detailed (and accurate) articles about the development of the Hemi?



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I got Willem Weertman's book about 5 yrs ago, it's an excellent read but as he came on board in the very late 50s iirc (going on memory here - always dangerous at 70) he was more involved in the Slant Six and the thin-wall 273 and derivaties, so there's more detail on those, but the hemi, poly &c are also covered, just not as much as the Slant Six, LA and B wedge engines and even '80s and '90s ones that he was involved with. It also does have a fair amount of detail on the '20s thru '50s flathead 6s, however, very interesting, they had more variety than I had imagined. The book is well worth buying.

SAE does have a paper by Chrysler engineers on the B-wedge engines that was presented at one their conferences around 1958, I got a copy of it (difficult) and it is really detailed and very interesting. I'm sure a similar SAE paper was presented by Chrysler engineering on the hemi, probably circa 1952, an index is online somewhere iirc. My local reference librarian helped me track down the SAE paper on the wedge engines after I read about it somewhere... Allpar maybe?.

Edited by firedome 2020-03-17 10:16 AM
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Powerflite
Posted 2020-03-17 11:43 AM (#595675 - in reply to #595620)
Subject: Re: Any detailed (and accurate) articles about the development of the Hemi?



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I found a few of them, but I am not close to a university library to be able to look them up without paying obnoxious prescription prices. An interesting statement from one of the previews was: "...it was learned that the difference in efficiency between various types of combustion chambers was greater than significant variations in compression ratio." And they have a figure of different engine designs tested. It seems that many people back then hadn't really given head design as much credit as it deserved.

1951-01-01
Development Highlights and Unique Features of New Chrysler V-8 Engine 510196
https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/510196/

1952-01-01
TRENDS IN CHRYSLER CORPORATION ENGINES 520172
https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/520172/

1952-01-01
New Horizons in Engine Development 520262
https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/520262/

They even have a couple of papers about the 426 hemi used for closed circuit racing. Here is one of them:

1966-02-01
Chrysler Corporation's New Hemi Head High Performance Engines 660342
https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/660342/


Edited by Powerflite 2020-03-17 12:29 PM
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-03-17 12:31 PM (#595676 - in reply to #595675)
Subject: Re: Any detailed (and accurate) articles about the development of the Hemi?



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Thanks for digging those links out Nathan. When you click on them, there is a PreView button, which when clicked, gives you the first two pages of the article. They all seem to be very tasty. If it wasn't for the US$33 per item, I would be buying them all.

I will see if I can resist buying one (or two).

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Powerflite
Posted 2020-03-17 12:40 PM (#595677 - in reply to #595620)
Subject: Re: Any detailed (and accurate) articles about the development of the Hemi?



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Just go to a university library and you should be able to view them, and photocopy or take pictures of them for free.
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-03-17 2:16 PM (#595683 - in reply to #595677)
Subject: Re: Any detailed (and accurate) articles about the development of the Hemi?



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Powerflite - 2020-03-17 9:40 AM
Just go to a university library and you should be able to view them, and photocopy or take pictures of them for free.


Normally that would be a good plan but a) the universities are shutting down and b) I am in 14 day self-isolation after our trip to California - all precautionary measures due to the Covid 19 threat.

I do have a few things to do in the house, garage and yard so I will put this info search on hold for now.

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56D500boy
Posted 2020-03-17 7:33 PM (#595692 - in reply to #595683)
Subject: Re: Any detailed (and accurate) articles about the development of the Hemi?



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Found a great 24 page brochure about the 1951 331 cu in 180 hp FirePower Hemi:

http://www.lov2xlr8.no/brochures/chrysler/51chren/51chren.html

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firedome
Posted 2020-03-18 11:45 AM (#595713 - in reply to #595620)
Subject: Re: Any detailed (and accurate) articles about the development of the Hemi?



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Hope the suggestion to pursue Chrysler Engineering SAE papers was helpful.

BTW: My local library's reference librarian was able to get the SAE paper on the B wedge engine at no-charge to me.

Edited by firedome 2020-03-18 11:47 AM
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-03-18 11:57 AM (#595715 - in reply to #595713)
Subject: Re: Any detailed (and accurate) articles about the development of the Hemi?



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firedome - 2020-03-18 8:45 AM
Hope the suggestion to pursue Chrysler Engineering SAE papers was helpful.
BTW: My local library's reference librarian was able to get the SAE paper on the B wedge engine at no-charge to me.


Yes, the links should be useful. Unfortunately as I said to Nathan yesterday:

56D500boy - 2020-03-17 11:16 AM
Powerflite - 2020-03-17 9:40 AM
Just go to a university library and you should be able to view them, and photocopy or take pictures of them for free.

Normally that would be a good plan but a) the universities are shutting down and b) I am in 14 day self-isolation after our trip to California - all precautionary measures due to the Covid 19 threat.
I do have a few things to do in the house, garage and yard so I will put this info search on hold for now.



Until they open the Universities and the libraries again, I might just buy the 1951 paper as a digital copy and hope that it is enough (with that 24 page 1951 Chrysler Firepower brochure)



Edited by 56D500boy 2020-03-18 12:12 PM
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Powerflite
Posted 2020-03-18 1:23 PM (#595716 - in reply to #595620)
Subject: Re: Any detailed (and accurate) articles about the development of the Hemi?



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It was useful. I didn't realize that Chrysler or any other company used SAE that extensively to talk about their innovations & new designs. Browsing through it, there are a lot of different papers on everything from the advent of power steering to variable speed wipers. Pretty cool. And that hemi brochure is really neat. I may want to get a hard copy of that just to have it!

Edited by Powerflite 2020-03-18 1:26 PM
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Powerflite
Posted 2020-03-18 1:28 PM (#595717 - in reply to #595620)
Subject: Re: Any detailed (and accurate) articles about the development of the Hemi?



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Also, it's funny how advertisers in the '50's over-sensationalize everything. But the statement at the bottom of the brochure, "The sensation of the century!" isn't too far off of being accurate. At least for 70 years.
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-03-18 1:41 PM (#595718 - in reply to #595716)
Subject: Re: Any detailed (and accurate) articles about the development of the Hemi?



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Powerflite - 2020-03-18 10:23 AM
It was useful. I didn't realize that Chrysler or any other company used SAE that extensively to talk about their innovations & new designs. Browsing through it, there are a lot of different papers on everything from the advent of power steering to variable speed wipers. Pretty cool. And that hemi brochure is really neat. I may want to get a hard copy of that just to have it!


Nathan: Check your designed2drive mail



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firedome
Posted 2020-03-19 11:17 AM (#595746 - in reply to #595620)
Subject: Re: Any detailed (and accurate) articles about the development of the Hemi?



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I knew about SAE as an outlet for Detroit to detail engineering developments going way back to the 20s and earlier. Gilbert Burrell of Oldsmobile did a major presentation on the occasion of unveiling the Olds 303 Rocket "Kettering" high compression V8 engine, the 1st modern OHV V8. Later on Olds made a similar presentation on the JetFire aluminum turbo 215 V8, then Toronado's FWD drivetrain including their innovative 1st use of Hy-Vo chain drive for the Toro's THM400 Olds used with the FWD. I had 3 mid '60s Toros and a bunch of '50s Olds converts so SAE's papers were very relevant to my own cars.

Edited by firedome 2020-03-19 11:19 AM
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-03-20 1:52 PM (#595788 - in reply to #595692)
Subject: Re: Any detailed (and accurate) articles about the development of the Hemi?



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I found and bought one of the 1951 Chrysler hemi brochures on eBay the other day. Today, I did a quick Google search on the 1953 Dodge Red Ram V8 to see if there was a brochure. There was. eBay has several. I bought the one that was in Canada. There are more and better ones in the US for those that are looking.

https://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=195...



Edited by 56D500boy 2020-03-21 2:20 AM
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firedome
Posted 2020-03-21 10:48 AM (#595818 - in reply to #595620)
Subject: Re: Any detailed (and accurate) articles about the development of the Hemi?



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The early hemis of all sizes were particularly good for head and combustion chamber design, but had other weaknesses: weight, complexity, and some bottom end/crank issues. As much as hemis are lionized today, ironically the B-wedge engines were/are better in almost every way (the '60s hemis excepted of course) .. their production from 1958 to into the '90s is proof of that. That said the 392 hemis ultimately were developed intensely in drag racing form to be incredible power plants like no other.
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