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How to fix leaky Powerflite
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westaus29
Posted 2020-06-03 9:22 PM (#599177)
Subject: How to fix leaky Powerflite


Regular

Posts: 94
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Location: Mandurah, Western Australia
My 55 Plymouth Powerflite leaks steadily while parked up. The oil pan is wet all over and there also seems to be fluid leaking from the torque converter housing vents. I have bought a gasket kit but not sure where to start as have read a few posts which show leaks coming from various other spots. I also cant figure from diagrams whether there is a front seal somewhere that may be a problem.

I am guessing the unit is in "original condition" and is showing its age. It still works fine, just messy and high maintenance. made worse because it is a RHD car and filler tube is short stubby version under floor, very hard to access for checks and topup. Am going to try and change to long tube that Big M was kind enough to send me. Reluctant to take the unit to a local shop in Western Australia as little chance they would have any experience with this unit.

Advice appreciated
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-06-03 9:31 PM (#599178 - in reply to #599177)
Subject: RE: How to fix leaky Powerflite



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Posts: 6240
5000100010010025
Location: Lower Mainland BC
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Hate to tell you this but there are two seals that could leak one at the front, one at the rear (Item 112 and 66 in the diagram below). If you could drop the transmission yourself, you *might* be able to change them. However, it is most likely a job for a transmission shop (that you trust).

I can dig out the part numbers for those seals if you want.



Edited by 56D500boy 2020-06-03 9:34 PM




(55-56PowerFliteCrossSection.jpg)



(PowerflitePartsDiagramShowingNo112rearSeal.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments 55-56PowerFliteCrossSection.jpg (191KB - 23 downloads)
Attachments PowerflitePartsDiagramShowingNo112rearSeal.jpg (135KB - 24 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-06-04 2:13 AM (#599184 - in reply to #599178)
Subject: RE: How to fix leaky Powerflite



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Posts: 6240
5000100010010025
Location: Lower Mainland BC
56D500boy - 2020-06-03 6:31 PM
I can dig out the part numbers for those seals if you want.


Oh h3LL, I decided to dig out the PNs, etc. anyway.

The front impeller hub seal was P/n 1408 143 or 1738 263 as taxi/heavy duty. Superceded to 2400084 eventually.

Rear output shaft seal is PN 1671 763 which seems to go to a Timken 8160S.

The first photo is a cast iron Torqueflite but the nose of the Powerflite looks basically the same.

Edited by 56D500boy 2020-06-04 2:20 AM




(DaveFs1736413Case1736544K_TFtransmission_Nose_AfterSomeCleaning.jpg)



(1408143PowerFliteFrontInputShaftSeal.jpg)



(FrontInputShaftSealAs2400084.jpg)



(56DodgePowerfliteOutputShaftShowingRearSeal.jpg)



(1671763PowerfliteRearOutputShaftSeal.jpg)



(PFRearOutputShaftSeal1671763ToTimken8160S.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments DaveFs1736413Case1736544K_TFtransmission_Nose_AfterSomeCleaning.jpg (173KB - 27 downloads)
Attachments 1408143PowerFliteFrontInputShaftSeal.jpg (216KB - 25 downloads)
Attachments FrontInputShaftSealAs2400084.jpg (78KB - 22 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgePowerfliteOutputShaftShowingRearSeal.jpg (100KB - 23 downloads)
Attachments 1671763PowerfliteRearOutputShaftSeal.jpg (167KB - 26 downloads)
Attachments PFRearOutputShaftSeal1671763ToTimken8160S.jpg (109KB - 24 downloads)
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bbdakota
Posted 2020-06-04 8:59 AM (#599189 - in reply to #599177)
Subject: Re: How to fix leaky Powerflite


Regular

Posts: 89
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I just fixed this very issue with my transmission. Leaking while parked indicates a throttle pressure shaft seal but could also be the neutral safety switch or pan gasket. All were leaking on my transmission. My front and rear seal didn't leak but the front pump seal was leaking. I did find a crack in my output shaft bearing housing but likely not your problem.

On the throttle pressure shaft, I did remove the sleeve and add a little rtv to seal the sleeve to the shaft. I didn't see how this was sealed from the factory but mines sealed now. Another place I've learned could be a source of leakage on these transmissions is the shift cable. I read others have sleeved them with heat shrink tube but I used 3/8" transmission cooler hose about 2ft
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-06-04 11:06 AM (#599226 - in reply to #599189)
Subject: Re: How to fix leaky Powerflite



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Posts: 6240
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Location: Lower Mainland BC
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The annotated photo below (which I just created) shows the potential leakpoints that Scott (bbdakota) is talking about. I have personnally solved a neutral safety switch leak (with a new switch and gasket to replace the old one and the RTV shown in the photo) and the leaky cable cover issue.

Neutral safety switch (I started this thread): http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=69708&...

Cable housing leak (I added to this thread): http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=46178&...

The cable also has an O-ring at the transmission end and it could be gone too. 3/8" diameter.

I will try to find a PN for the throttle pressure shaft seal (IF there is one ???)

Pan gaskets (P/N 1408282) are on eBay and/or you can make one with the Felpro blue gasket material.

Additional PF photos are from Per E. (thanks again Per for the help with my TF cable when I found out that a PF cable will not easily work on a TF)

Good luck



Edited by 56D500boy 2020-06-04 12:58 PM




(PotentialLeakPointsOnAPowerflite.jpg)



(PF2-20191126_181933.jpg)



(PF1-20191126_181559.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments PotentialLeakPointsOnAPowerflite.jpg (195KB - 22 downloads)
Attachments PF2-20191126_181933.jpg (147KB - 22 downloads)
Attachments PF1-20191126_181559.jpg (101KB - 22 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-06-04 5:48 PM (#599248 - in reply to #599226)
Subject: Re: How to fix leaky Powerflite



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Posts: 6240
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Location: Lower Mainland BC
56D500boy - 2020-06-04 8:06 AM
I will try to find a PN for the throttle pressure shaft seal (IF there is one ???)


Went out to the garage to inspect the PF that was removed from my 56 Dodge when I had a TF swapped in. I don't think that there is a rubber seal at the top of the throttle pressure shaft where it comes out of the case. What I found was a small felt donut under a metal cap. The felt would suck up and hold a bit of fluid if that is all there was but it would not hold back any pressurized fluid (presumably it isn't pressurized at that point). See photos below.

While I was there, I investigated the front seal. Mine says 7587 which I presume is a Chicago Rawhide (C/R) number. But I can not find any trace of that number to confirm that. What I did do was to check the size of the seal (roughly 2.89 inches outside diameter and a bit more than 2.05 inches inside diameter). Knowing that I chased the part numbers that I previously suggested and found some SKF seals that seem right.

For the Mopar 1408143 it translated to an SKF 21098. Both the Mopar 1738263 and the later 2400083 translated to an SKF 21103. For "fun" then I tried the rear Mopar 1671763 and found that it translated to an SKF 15620.

For those I used the interchange tab from this SKF website: http://skfpartsinfo.com/

Some photos of the results:





(56PowerFliteShowingThrottlePressureShaft.jpg)



(56PowerFliteShowingThrottlePressureShaftFeltSealWithCapOff.jpg)



(56PowerFliteShowingThrottlePressureShaftWithCapAndFeltSealOff.jpg)



(56PowerFliteShowingThrottlePressureShaftCapAndFeltSeal.jpg)



(56PowerfliteFrontShowing7587FrontSeal.jpg)



(56PowerfliteFrontShowingRoughMeasurementOfFrontSealOuterDiameter.jpg)



(56PowerfliteFrontShowingRoughMeasurementOfFrontSealInnerDiameter.jpg)



(Mopar1408143ToSKF21098SizeDetails.jpg)



(Mopar1738263ToSKF21103Details.jpg)



(Mopar1671763ToSKF15620Details.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments 56PowerFliteShowingThrottlePressureShaft.jpg (249KB - 22 downloads)
Attachments 56PowerFliteShowingThrottlePressureShaftFeltSealWithCapOff.jpg (158KB - 23 downloads)
Attachments 56PowerFliteShowingThrottlePressureShaftWithCapAndFeltSealOff.jpg (216KB - 21 downloads)
Attachments 56PowerFliteShowingThrottlePressureShaftCapAndFeltSeal.jpg (58KB - 21 downloads)
Attachments 56PowerfliteFrontShowing7587FrontSeal.jpg (103KB - 22 downloads)
Attachments 56PowerfliteFrontShowingRoughMeasurementOfFrontSealOuterDiameter.jpg (120KB - 27 downloads)
Attachments 56PowerfliteFrontShowingRoughMeasurementOfFrontSealInnerDiameter.jpg (124KB - 23 downloads)
Attachments Mopar1408143ToSKF21098SizeDetails.jpg (54KB - 21 downloads)
Attachments Mopar1738263ToSKF21103Details.jpg (51KB - 21 downloads)
Attachments Mopar1671763ToSKF15620Details.jpg (51KB - 22 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-06-04 9:24 PM (#599262 - in reply to #599248)
Subject: Re: How to fix leaky Powerflite



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Posts: 6240
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Location: Lower Mainland BC
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Based on this photo in my previous post, while I was back in the garage tinkering on my 56 Dodge, I decided to check the Powerflite more carefully.



I wiped the area off with a solvent soaked paper towel and discovered that there is a seal there for sure. It is marked 50018, SN (or NS?) and Pat. Pend. I measured a shaft diameter of 0.62" and an overall seal diameter of about 1.29" (give or take).

When I used the SKF parts search, a 50018 comes up as a National Mfg. Part Number: 50018 with a cross to a 6925 from National, Federal Mogul and Caterpillar. Dimensions are very close to what I measured and given that I didn't necessarily get the outside diameter measured correctly, I would believe the 1.254" more than my 1.29"

I think that the OE P/N for that seal is 1408 353 but the SKF interchange does not recognize the number. However when you Google "1408353 powerflite manual shaft seal" a bunch of hits come up, including one a MoparMall labeled 50018. Bingo.

https://www.moparmall.com/product-p/kc-81204.htm









(56PowerFliteShowingThrottlePressureShaftAndSeal.jpg)



(56PowerFliteShowingThrottlePressureShaftAndSeal_ShowingPN50018.jpg)



(National50018CrossToNational6925Details.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments 56PowerFliteShowingThrottlePressureShaftAndSeal.jpg (187KB - 23 downloads)
Attachments 56PowerFliteShowingThrottlePressureShaftAndSeal_ShowingPN50018.jpg (129KB - 25 downloads)
Attachments National50018CrossToNational6925Details.jpg (54KB - 26 downloads)
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westaus29
Posted 2020-06-05 10:38 AM (#599288 - in reply to #599177)
Subject: Re: How to fix leaky Powerflite


Regular

Posts: 94
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Location: Mandurah, Western Australia
Thanks for putting this together. Not sure I follow all of it yet but will read thru it and compare with the shop manual and parts listing, neither of which have very clear diagrams of the seal areas. It isnt made any easier with the transmission exploded diagram upside down, sump on top! I would like to understand it all before starting anything as dont really want it off the road long and no spare PF around here to study. Also because of rarity of PF in Oz it will be hard to find anyone competent to work on it. The torqueflite is much more common.

The rear seal item 112 is straightforward. The front seal 66 is listed as a "dust seal" which had me looking for and not finding the front oil seal. The cross section dwg is very hard to follow but I think I see it. Looks like it seals on the torque converter rear hub, is that right? I have a suspicion mine is leaking badly.


You have also cleared up for me the setup of the throttle pressure shaft seal. For the throttle pressure shaft, bbdakota mentions removing a sleeve and sealing it with rtv but I cant see where. It looks like there is a snap ring on the shaft, and maybe that allows a sleeve to be withdrawn?

One good thing is we have a very good local bearings and seals shop, rare that they dont have what I want in stock. I just take the old item in and he finds an equivalent. Did the diff pinion seal for me no problems. Trouble is with the low value of the Oz dollar and high cost of postage, getting parts from USA is now uneconomical, especially when they send you sub-standard Chinese rubbish (Detroit uni joint repair kit cost over $200 landed, was useless - sad because we used to make them here). Worth searching for local or going to UK who have better prices and much lower postage rates.
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-06-05 12:07 PM (#599293 - in reply to #599288)
Subject: Re: How to fix leaky Powerflite



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Posts: 6240
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Location: Lower Mainland BC
westaus29 - 2020-06-05 7:38 AM
The rear seal item 112 is straightforward. The front seal 66 is listed as a "dust seal" which had me looking for and not finding the front oil seal. The cross section dwg is very hard to follow but I think I see it. Looks like it seals on the torque converter rear hub, is that right? I have a suspicion mine is leaking badly.


Item 66 is the seal that is used to seal the rear of the torque converter to the transmission. The photo that I took trying to measure the inside diameter was after I slid the drive sleeve (Item 68) out of the transmission.

Here is a photo from Phil C. in France of an air-cooled torque converter that you will have on your car. I have tried to show where the seal surface contacts the torque converter (on the outside of the rear nose of the torque converter)



Edited by 56D500boy 2020-06-05 1:25 PM




(AirCooledMoparTorqueConverter.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments AirCooledMoparTorqueConverter.jpg (177KB - 26 downloads)
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bbdakota
Posted 2020-06-05 5:22 PM (#599305 - in reply to #599177)
Subject: Re: How to fix leaky Powerflite


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Posts: 89
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You are correct Wes, the little wire clip holds the throttle pressure shaft sleeve in place. The seal actually seals to the sleeve and I was concerned fluid could escape out of the clearance between the sleeve and the shaft. Take note, when the sleeve is removed, there is a good chance the detent ball will come out of place. It's a little tedious to get back in.
I'm sure you know to change the throttle pressure seal, you'll need to drop the valve body. Very simple. My new seal came in the gasket/ seal kit I ordered. Looking back, I should have recorded the seal numbers.
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westaus29
Posted 2020-06-06 12:27 PM (#599329 - in reply to #599177)
Subject: Re: How to fix leaky Powerflite


Regular

Posts: 94
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Location: Mandurah, Western Australia
Thanks guys, I have done a few manual gearboxes but never tackled an auto, having trouble with the techo terms and the lack of detail in the manual and the parts diagrams. The manual does have detailed instructions so will go thru those, wish I had a spare to practise on!
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