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57 Dodge Suburban trans rebuild time...
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jaded13640
Posted 2021-07-28 11:50 AM (#613849 - in reply to #599609)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Suburban trans rebuild time...



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Question...

Obviously I'm overlooking something and I would say it's fairly obvious that it's in the front clutch.
Technically I can remove the valve body and test the front clutch while it's in the car by removing the valve body but removing the transmission is not very hard at this point.

What would you guys do? If it were pretty easy, four bolts, a few cables, drain the fluid and the 8 bolts on the driveshaft, and the trans is out. Would you just pull the trans out?

Another thing, I've got another transmission that's newer than mine. I don't know at what point they would have changed the front clutch but I'm thinking about stripping the one transmission apart and examining the front clutch. Even if it's a little different, like maybe more modern maybe it'll show me that I've put something back together wrong or maybe the case and parts are the same and could be used if in fact my test of the clutch fails and there's something I need.
Maybe you could help me identify the year of the parts trans? I know where the numbers are but I can't figure anything out by looking at them.

Anyway, I was going to get right out there and get to work either dropping the valve body or dropping the trans out and putting it on the bench...it's a major pain in the rear to get the shift lever housing off with my exhaust on the car. Like it would take at least an hour to get it back on to test anything out. Dual exhaust has it's costs. It may actually be easier overall to do the test with the trans on the bench...it would be easier than looking up all that time! LOL

Just looking for thoughts, I've got a thing I have to do at 5 so I decided to post this and wait to work on the car till I get back home about 7pm. It'll be a lot cooler this evening too.

Another thought, with the front clutch out I think there were three holes on the inside undeneeth where you would have to apply air to test it that way. I'm not sure how if one could air test the clutch without it engaged in in the next part or installed in the trans. Can the front clutch be tested outside of the trans? The answer to that might be useful if I were to go messing around with one of the old transmissions I have. We know nothing about any of them. If they worked when we got any of them it's been forgoten now. All of them have the newer spin wheel adjuster on the cable shift....but I don't think they're new enough to have park sprag...I've got one back that has the sprag but pieces are missing. We got a few push button transmissions from people because my roommate gathered them thinking they were all the same and we could use them. I know some are different but I don't know how to identify them by year or what is interchangeable. I know the one I'm thinking about taking apart to look at the front clutch doesn't have the same valve body. It has a one piece unit where mine has the three units that bolt to the main transfer plate.

Given that getting info and answers takes time I thought I might throw a few questions out there while I actually had time before I was going to do anything to it.

Thanks,

Wayne

Edited by jaded13640 2021-07-28 11:55 AM
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-07-28 1:57 PM (#613851 - in reply to #613849)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Suburban trans rebuild time...



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Wayne: Regarding the 2nd TF, if you can post a photo of the assembly number that is stamped on the smooth area of the case by the filler tube, like the example below, I will probably be able to figure out which year car it came from. If that helps

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jaded13640
Posted 2021-07-28 4:09 PM (#613856 - in reply to #599609)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Suburban trans rebuild time...



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I tried to get a picture of that rail, I wire brushed the heck out of it and still could only make out a digit or two. I ran out of time. When I get back home I'll work on it some more, get some more light on it and then maybe use some liquid to make it show up. I'm impressed with how you were able to get your numbers to stand out that well. All I can get a yellow, pock marked reflection with the flash. I don't know what the deal is with google photos, I take a picture with my phone and I can't get it to show up on my pc till sometimes the next day. I'll try to reboot and see what comes up. Maybe I can try a lighting edit or something...
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jaded13640
Posted 2021-07-28 4:34 PM (#613857 - in reply to #599609)
Subject: RE: 57 Dodge Suburban trans rebuild time...



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This is all I could get using a flash...



(IMG_20210728_155826.jpg)



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56D500boy
Posted 2021-07-28 4:45 PM (#613859 - in reply to #613857)
Subject: RE: 57 Dodge Suburban trans rebuild time...



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Try one without a flash. (Flash definitely doesn't work for you for that shot). Also you might try using a felt pen to scribe over the stamped numbers to make them "pop" visually.

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jaded13640
Posted 2021-07-28 6:49 PM (#613860 - in reply to #599609)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Suburban trans rebuild time...



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I hadn't thought of the felt tipped pen thing. Good idea.
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jaded13640
Posted 2021-07-29 4:28 AM (#613869 - in reply to #599609)
Subject: RE: 57 Dodge Suburban trans rebuild time...



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Ok, best I can tell is that there are two sets of numbers, first group 9 characters. Second set 7

220476325 196_008

I couldn't even make a guess at the one in the second set.

Both clutch drums appear to be physically different from the ones in my car's trans. I'm guess the only way they could be used, IF they could be used at all, would be if you used them all as a set.
I'll be curious to see if those numbers tell you anything. Longshot, That surface was really bad.

I didn't get anything done to my trans. Guess I'll pull it tomorrow. But I want to take apart the spare trans' front clutch and photo document everything to see if I assembled something incorrectly.

Anyway, bedtime.

Thanks,

Wayne
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-07-29 11:57 AM (#613882 - in reply to #613869)
Subject: RE: 57 Dodge Suburban trans rebuild time...



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jaded13640 - 2021-07-29 1:28 AM
Ok, best I can tell is that there are two sets of numbers, first group 9 characters. Second set 7
220476325 196_008


Thanks that helps. But 9 numbers is 2 numbers too many. So I will go with the first 7: 2204 763.

If PNs starting with 16 = 1956 and 17 = 1957 then logic would have 2204 763 as a 1962 transmission = Aluminum case 727. However, since it is obviously a cast iron job, I looked for 2204 763 in the 1960 and 1961 parts catalogues. No 22... assemblies in 1960 (just 19...and 21...).

*HOWEVER* in 1961, the last year of the cast iron A-466, there was a 2204 753, which is what I imagine you have. So the 1961 cast iron TF is likely to have all the latest evolutionary internal modifications. The shifter cable is different than 1957 but that is easy. Just get a late 1959-1961 cable and connect it to your 1957 shifter box.

To confirm this "educated" (via the parts books) guess, check the cast number on the case. Should be 1941 628.

Hope that helps

Edited by 56D500boy 2021-07-29 12:09 PM




(61MoparTorqueFliteAssemblyPN_2204753_ApplicationListAndCaseNumber.jpg)



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jaded13640
Posted 2021-07-30 1:16 AM (#613894 - in reply to #599609)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Suburban trans rebuild time...



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I've actually got three or more push button trannies out there. I took a pic of a 73 Riveria that this woman I know owns and is having me work on. I didn't have any need to post it here but I did it just to do a test. I don't know what the problem is but I can take a photo with my phone, reboot the computer and my phone which should be all I need to do in order to get the photo to show up on an unconnected device, (connected only via wifi) but it still doesn't show up.
I thought I'd take another photo of the pan rail to see if any more of the part number will show up...but...even the photos I took last night don't show up.

I've rebooted my laptop, my phone and even regenerated the photos page while of course connected to the hard line internet connection, the phone is connected to the internet via the wifi connection but the photos I took with my phone will not show up on my laptop.

Do you know why that might be happening and or anything else I can try to solve this?
They should show up virtually instantly. They're supposed to be views of the same location on the cloud.

Thanks,

Wayne
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jaded13640
Posted 2021-08-02 12:15 AM (#613948 - in reply to #599609)
Subject: RE: 57 Dodge Suburban trans rebuild time...



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so I was sick all weekend. I only dragged my ass out of bed because I was anxious to get that trans apart.

Here's the difference I found in the front clutch.

It's tapered at the top, pic....





and the clutch area is shallower and it turns out it's because there's no cushin spring. All the rest of the stuff is the same dimension, pressure plate front and rear etc...
Picture...



(IMG_20210801_232723.jpg)



(IMG_20210801_232849.jpg)



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Attachments IMG_20210801_232849.jpg (39KB - 140 downloads)
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jaded13640
Posted 2021-08-02 12:20 AM (#613949 - in reply to #599609)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Suburban trans rebuild time...



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I took another picture, I don't know why it didn't show up but the bottom pressure plate on my clutch was broken! I mean....I saw the lines in it and pulled it out and it crumbled in my hand. It took so much force overcoming that cushing spring I'm not surprised something broke! I think I'll add a friction and make up the space and chuck the "cushin spring" But regardless of what unit I use from which trans there won't be a cushin spring in mine. And by eliminating the cushing spring I may be able to make it a five disc clutch. That's pretty much always a good thing. I had a bad feeling that it was taking too much pressure to overcome that dammed cushin spring. if the other trans doesn't have a cushing spring how bad can mine be without one? I think I'll chanced it.

By the way the pressure plate didn't look like that while in the bottom of the drum. I had it in my hand and noticed the lines and bent it a little and, much to my surprise, it crumbled in to bits. LOL I'm very fortunate to have another one.

Edited by jaded13640 2021-08-02 4:26 AM




(IMG_20210802_002200.jpg)



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jaded13640
Posted 2021-08-02 10:58 AM (#613954 - in reply to #599609)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Suburban trans rebuild time...



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Shifts great! Certainly didn't need that cushin spring.
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-08-02 1:57 PM (#613960 - in reply to #613954)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Suburban trans rebuild time...



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jaded13640 - 2021-08-02 7:58 AM
Shifts great! Certainly didn't need that cushion spring.


Congrats on finding your problem and fixing it!!

If you can figure out what item number the cushion spring is in the diagram below, I will find the part number and try to figure out when they dropped it as not being needed.





(A-466TorqueFliteExplodedPartsDiagram_large.jpg)



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jaded13640
Posted 2021-08-02 2:53 PM (#613965 - in reply to #599609)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Suburban trans rebuild time...



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So far without the cushin spring, the trans functions totally normal. No delays anywhere, shifts great...nothing weird going on...I'm wondering what the real benefit was of the cushin spring. Strange... I mean obviously it must have softened either the initial engagement into gear or between shifts or both but...without it it acts exactly like I remember it from before, although now everything's a little crisper. Any thoughts are more than welcome... I'm happier than a pig in poop. I just wish I didn't need to send the ole girl out of an alignment! I want to drive the wiss out of it!
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jaded13640
Posted 2021-08-02 5:49 PM (#613972 - in reply to #599609)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Suburban trans rebuild time...



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I think it's 185 over in the "4 lever type".
It appears that 186 is the special steel that allows for the cushin spring. Otherwise it would be a typical steel.
And 185, although I can't see it well enough to tell for sure, could go right there.
Yea, I suspect it was a brilliant idea that turned out to cause more complexity than it was worth. But I can't wait to find out when and why they dropped it.

Wayne

Also I wanted to note that the trans with the clutch that didn't have the cushion spring had a 6 (I think) finger arrangement. Had I known for 100% certain I could have just just that clutch without any problem I would have used it. I wasn't sure if I had the fresh parts for it though you know? The piston may have a different diameter and therefore I wouldn't have had the correct seal etc. It's slightly shorter so it must also be lighter. Several advantages if in fact they found the "cushion spring" wasn't necessary. I'm guessing something like it was how gm has a fairly smooth engagement even if your idle was stuck high. To me it would be an any performance sort of thing and for that reason I wouldn't want it. I remember a transmission in Ford, it was in a van I'm thinking of, the guy could floor it and put in gear and it just wouldn't do a neutral slam. Something was smoothing the engagement at any rpm level.

Edited by jaded13640 2021-08-02 6:00 PM
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-08-02 6:33 PM (#613974 - in reply to #613972)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Suburban trans rebuild time...



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Item 185 leads to a listing in Section 21-133-70 as "SPRING, Front Clutch Cushion", PN 1736 392 used in all 57-58 Torqueflites.

Moving to 1959 the cushion spring still exists but the PN is now 1823 731

The cushion spring still exists in 1960 as 1823 731

Same in 1961, still there and 1823 731.

1962 was the change to the 727 (completely different design) so no surprise, not front clutch cushion.

Conclusion: The A-466 TorqueFlite transmissions used a front clutch cushion spring from 1957 to 1961.

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jaded13640
Posted 2021-08-02 8:29 PM (#613976 - in reply to #599609)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Suburban trans rebuild time...



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We tried to run the numbers on that parts tranny I had back there. They are pretty much illegible. It was a fluid cooled cast iron torqueflite. But the front clutch had more fingers and no cushin spring. Anyway, mine doesn't have one either. I had a slightly thicker snap ring on the wall I used to help take up some of the extra space but, like I said everything seems to work great. No issues at all.

Edited by jaded13640 2021-08-02 8:34 PM
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57chizler
Posted 2021-08-03 2:52 PM (#613994 - in reply to #613965)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Suburban trans rebuild time...



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jaded13640 - 2021-08-02 11:53 AM

I'm wondering what the real benefit was of the cushin spring. Strange... I mean obviously it must have softened either the initial engagement into gear


That's it, takes the "shock" out of the engagement both for driver comfort and less strain on parts. The wavy spring was used in Torqueflite clutches up to the end of production.
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