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1960 Desoto Push Buttons out of Order
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Mope R. Geezer
Posted 2020-07-07 9:42 PM (#600581)
Subject: 1960 Desoto Push Buttons out of Order



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When I got my 1960 Desoto Fireflite, it had been restored, and the seller told me that the push buttons on the Torqueflite were hooked up wrong.  The tranny works fine, but the push buttons are horizontally RN12D, instead of RND21.  So the D and 1 are just reversed, and it's a pain to reach inside the steering wheel to use D, which again is in the 1 position.  I actually have the PB caps in the correct order since I know what they actually are and so it doesn't look funky.   The slides inside the PB housing are stamped with the gear they represent, and they match the out of order RN12D.  I currently have the car in a shop where they specialize in Mopar trannys, but they seem perplexed about how to correct this.  I want it to be right as shown in the pic - RND21.  Any thoughts?





(Desoto PB.png)



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Attachments Desoto PB.png (88KB - 11 downloads)
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Fireflite56
Posted 2020-07-08 5:19 PM (#600603 - in reply to #600581)
Subject: Re: 1960 Desoto Push Buttons out of Order



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I can't help much in regards to the physical swapping of the pushbuttons, but I did just look at a photo of my grandpa's survivor '60 Adventurer (owned by him since 1961 and never had transmission work beyond a fluid flush) and his shows the same RND21 shown on the photo you posted. Hopefully this at least lends some credibility to the ad rendering.
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-07-08 6:34 PM (#600604 - in reply to #600581)
Subject: RE: 1960 Desoto Push Buttons out of Order



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I am NOT an expert but based on my investigations of Torqueflite shifters, while the arrangement of the buttons might be strange, internally, the plates in the shifter box are arranged so that the cable transfers the information to the Torqueflite internal valve body as RND21, as shown below:



Photo courtesy of Phil Courant

When I investigated one of the very first Torqueflite shifter boxes, the 1673 906, the buttons and the shifter plates were arranged so that the cable was pushed towards the transmission the most when the "R" button was pushed in and pulled furthest away from the transmission when the "1" button was pushed in:



That was with the buttons arranged with R at the upper left, N in the upper middle, D at the upper right, 2 at the lower right and 1 at the lower left.



I would call that the "conventional" arrangement.

But there were also vertical and horizontal arrangements depending on the year and the car. This might have necessitated re-arranging the shifter plates inside the shifter box to accomodate/create the RND21 cable movement.

If I was you I would drop the shifter box down out of the dash and observe the movement of the little arm that the cable is connected to as the various buttons are pressed.

REFERENCE for the above: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=70397&...

An example vertical arrangement:



Example horizontal arrangements (the brochure diagram is from a 1960 Chrysler). Notice the unconventional arrangement of where the buttons go on the shifter box. I would still guess that the cable is moved RND21.





Edited by 56D500boy 2020-07-08 6:39 PM




(TorquefliteShifterWithHorizontallyArrangedButtons.JPG)



(60ChryslerTorqueflitePushButtons.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments TorquefliteShifterWithHorizontallyArrangedButtons.JPG (30KB - 10 downloads)
Attachments 60ChryslerTorqueflitePushButtons.jpg (150KB - 11 downloads)
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Mope R. Geezer
Posted 2020-07-09 10:53 AM (#600621 - in reply to #600581)
Subject: RE: 1960 Desoto Push Buttons out of Order



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Thanks.  Very informative - at least for my understanding of how these things work.  And how strange that you actually had the same "305" box a few years ago.  HA!  Did you by chance sell it to a guy in the Seattle area?  May be the same one.

I've checked all the Chrysler products and Edsel, Packard and AMC Rambler, as well.  Never found any push buttons that line up that way.  But I guess what I'm not understanding is why the slides can't just be rearranged in the box so they're in the correct order???? 

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56D500boy
Posted 2020-07-09 12:13 PM (#600624 - in reply to #600621)
Subject: RE: 1960 Desoto Push Buttons out of Order



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Mope R. Geezer - 2020-07-09 7:53 AM
Thanks.  Very informative - at least for my understanding of how these things work.  And how strange that you actually had the same "305" box a few years ago.  HA!  Did you by chance sell it to a guy in the Seattle area?  May be the same one.


It might be the same one but if it is, it didn't come from me. I had only borrowed it from Ron W. (my local NOS parts guy) to try to figure it out. I gave it back, scratching my head in confusion.

The "305" cable movement pattern, based on the "conventional" (early) torqueflite button arrangement: Seemed to be RN12D where R pushed the cable furthest towards the transmission and D seemed to pull it back the most.



Now look at this horizontal shifter arrangement:



If you think of how I had placed the conventional shifter buttons on the "305" and looking above, I can see that the shifter box above is probably a "305" where "D" and "1" are effectively swapped from the "conventional" shifter locations. If I am right, and the shifter box above is a "305", pushing R will push the cable furthest towards the transmission and pushing 1 (which I thought was the D position) will pull it back the most.

I just checked a bunch of 1960-62 Mopar brochures and everyone had the buttons arranged RND21, either vertically or horizontally, so I can see why they might have had to rearrange the shifter box to fit these "non-conventional" arrangements.

Bottomline: Unless your car was set up for drag racing with a "reverse pattern" valve body, the transmission is still expecting R is the furthest push in and 1 is the greatest pull - out.

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Mope R. Geezer
Posted 2020-07-13 3:06 PM (#600808 - in reply to #600581)
Subject: RE: 1960 Desoto Push Buttons out of Order



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Thanks.  Your info has helped tremendously, at least for my understanding of how all this stuff works.  My car is currently in the tranny shop.  They are telling me it's a 1964 727B with code 2466 147 191 3621.  Does that help or mean anything significant in identifying a fix for rearranging the push buttons?

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b5rt
Posted 2020-07-13 9:04 PM (#600828 - in reply to #600581)
Subject: Re: 1960 Desoto Push Buttons out of Order



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You cannot physically put the push buttons on the 60 DeSoto in a different order. The shape and lengths only allow them to fit in certain spots. BUT what you can do is pull the little chrome caps off and the black insert with letters can be rearranged to whatever pattern you want.
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1960fury
Posted 2020-07-14 6:07 AM (#600845 - in reply to #600828)
Subject: Re: 1960 Desoto Push Buttons out of Order



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b5rt - 2020-07-13 9:04 PM

You cannot physically put the push buttons on the 60 DeSoto in a different order. The shape and lengths only allow them to fit in certain spots. BUT what you can do is pull the little chrome caps off and the black insert with letters can be rearranged to whatever pattern you want.


Yup, so I guess while the designation is different, the buttons are still R-N-D-2-1
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-07-14 12:25 PM (#600862 - in reply to #600828)
Subject: Re: 1960 Desoto Push Buttons out of Order



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b5rt - 2020-07-13 6:04 PM

You cannot physically put the push buttons on the 60 DeSoto in a different order. The shape and lengths only allow them to fit in certain spots. BUT what you can do is pull the little chrome caps off and the black insert with letters can be rearranged to whatever pattern you want.


I agree about the button extensions only fitting in one of the five locations. However, just because the caps and the numbers can be moved around, it obviously doesn't mean their function does, i.e. pushing one of the buttons moves the cable furthest into the transmission (at least with an A-466 cast iron TorqueFlite), we can call that button "R". One of the other four buttons will pull the cable back a small amount, we might call that button "N". One of the remaining three buttons will pull the cable away from the transmission the most. We can call that button "1". Remaining buttons would be "D" and "2". 2 will push the cable back towards the transmission just a bit from the cable position that "1" provided. "D" will move the cable even more towards the transmission but not as much as the "N" button's cable position.

Bottomline: Even if the buttons on a 1960 Desoto can be relabeled by moving the chrome caps, it should only be done in recognition of what happens when each of the 5 buttons is pushed in.

A POTENTIALLY USEFUL REFERENCE: http://www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.com/mopar-push-button-transmissi...





Edited by 56D500boy 2020-07-14 12:31 PM
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b5rt
Posted 2020-07-14 4:02 PM (#600880 - in reply to #600862)
Subject: Re: 1960 Desoto Push Buttons out of Order



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56D500boy - 2020-07-14 11:25 AM

b5rt - 2020-07-13 6:04 PM

You cannot physically put the push buttons on the 60 DeSoto in a different order. The shape and lengths only allow them to fit in certain spots. BUT what you can do is pull the little chrome caps off and the black insert with letters can be rearranged to whatever pattern you want.


I agree about the button extensions only fitting in one of the five locations. However, just because the caps and the numbers can be moved around, it obviously doesn't mean their function does, i.e. pushing one of the buttons moves the cable furthest into the transmission (at least with an A-466 cast iron TorqueFlite), we can call that button "R". One of the other four buttons will pull the cable back a small amount, we might call that button "N". One of the remaining three buttons will pull the cable away from the transmission the most. We can call that button "1". Remaining buttons would be "D" and "2". 2 will push the cable back towards the transmission just a bit from the cable position that "1" provided. "D" will move the cable even more towards the transmission but not as much as the "N" button's cable position.

Bottomline: Even if the buttons on a 1960 Desoto can be relabeled by moving the chrome caps, it should only be done in recognition of what happens when each of the 5 buttons is pushed in.

A POTENTIALLY USEFUL REFERENCE: http://www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.com/mopar-push-button-transmissi...



:)
I in no way implied that the function can change by rearranging the black caps. At least I never intended that to be the assumption. You can also take all the black caps out and throw them in the garbage if you like. Doesn't mean the transmission won't shift just because the indicators aren't there.
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Mope R. Geezer
Posted 2020-07-24 8:19 PM (#601267 - in reply to #600581)
Subject: RE: 1960 Desoto Push Buttons out of Order



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Update on my Desoto push buttons:  Tranny shop in Boise was able to fabricate new slides inside the shifter housing to reverse the D & 1 buttons so now they’re in the correct positions, R-N-D-2-1, and they function properly.  Don’t ask me to explain how they did it, because as you know, I’m a bonehead mechanic.  Thanks a million for your advice helping me (and them) through this!  Fortunately 3 of the guys in the tranny shop were Mopar gearheads who have 1960’s Mopars.

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