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Front disc brakes and '57-59 Imperial: "mission impossible"
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Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2020-07-25 1:12 PM (#601290)
Subject: Front disc brakes and '57-59 Imperial: "mission impossible"



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Since several years i want to convert this fuc*** Center Plane brakes to disc (front only) but I can turn the problem all over the place, at the end it always "impossible" or very expensive !
57-59 (early) Imperial have 14" wheels
57-59 (and later) have a 5 x 5 1/2 bolt pattern
57-58 have a 392 Hemi with large engine heads.
So either a buy four new 15" wheels / tires / hubcaps + other problem to install the dual M/C (relocated fluid tanks), either i stay with my drums ....

I know the 14" disc conversion from AAJ, i installed one on a '59 Coronet, no problem, works fine but the Dodge bolt pattern is 5 x 4 1/2 !!!

The most economical conversion would be to install this kit, with Chrysler knuckles and wheels. So i can keep my tires, hubcaps, etc... I think that a NY knuckle is as strong as an Imperial knuckle.

(question, seems that 300C/D have Imperial hubs, larger than NY or others, so even with 5 x 4/12 pattern the AAJ kit will not fit ?)
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Powerflite
Posted 2020-07-25 3:57 PM (#601299 - in reply to #601290)
Subject: Re: Front disc brakes and '57-59 Imperial: "mission impossible"



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The NY knuckle would work fine if that's what you want to do. The standard 300C & 300D doesn't use Imperial parts. They are the same as the New Yorker (I have one of each). You may be thinking of old race cars only. I used the Scarebird disc conversion. The old version requires 15" wheels, but their new version doesn't. If you insist on keeping 14" wheels with discs, you must use a good working power booster to increase the stopping power. If you convert to 5x4.5", then you will likely want to convert your rear axle too. I *think* you can just swap axles, backing plates, hubs & drums to do that. But easier to swap the whole rear if in the US. For a master cylinder, I recommend the mid-eighties Mitsubishi Fuso truck iron remote master. Just oblong the bolt holes to mount it. Use it with a remote reservoir. Or you can use your discs with the original master if you like. I am still using the original master on my '56 Plymouth & '58 Firedome and it works well.

Edited by Powerflite 2020-07-25 4:00 PM
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Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2020-07-25 4:12 PM (#601300 - in reply to #601299)
Subject: Re: Front disc brakes and '57-59 Imperial: "mission impossible"



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Powerflite - 2020-07-25 9:57 PM

The standard 300C & 300D doesn't use Imperial parts. They are the same as the New Yorker (I have one of each). You may be thinking of old race cars only.

On the 57 (canadian) parts manual, the 300C front hub and drum assy is listed as 1732294/5 , same as Imperial. The rear wheel hub and drum assy has also the same parts id. than Imperial: 1732296/7 . The studs have also the same number than Imperial and different from others. Front wheel bearings also ! 


Powerflite - 2020-07-25 9:57 PM
For a master cylinder, I recommend the mid-eighties Mitsubishi Fuso truck iron remote master. Just oblong the bolt holes to mount it. Use it with a remote reservoir. Or you can use your discs with the original master if you like. I am still using the original master on my '56 Plymouth & '58 Firedome and it works well.

Remeber that a 392 engine is much larger than poly so the corner of the head will hit the dual M/C... I 've some pics of a memeber here who send me how he machined the M/C to fit !



Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2020-07-25 4:13 PM
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Powerflite
Posted 2020-07-25 6:21 PM (#601303 - in reply to #601290)
Subject: Re: Front disc brakes and '57-59 Imperial: "mission impossible"



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I have a 300C and 300D, and they both use 4.5" bolt pattern with 1/2" studs just like regular Chryslers. So I don't know why it would be different in Canada. The Mitsu master will fit above the valve cover fine, but I forgot that the line comes out the bottom so it would likely run into the cover. So I agree that it may not work with the hemi. I am going to try to make it work on my '57 New Yorker anyway, but there is a chance it won't work because of that.
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KcImperial
Posted 2020-07-25 8:31 PM (#601306 - in reply to #601290)
Subject: RE: Front disc brakes and '57-59 Imperial: "mission impossible"



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Imperial has larger diameter spindle, different wheel bearing size and a wider bolt pattern for the steering arm (where disc brake bracket would attach) and of course a larger wheel bolt pattern. This makes it incompatible with any non-Imperial conversion kit without modifications.

I believe your Canadian parts manual is in error about the 300C hub interchanging with Imperial. The Imperial hub not only has the larger 5x5.5 bolt pattern, it also uses different bearings A3/A5 versus A2/A6. Check which bearing set your parts manual shows for the 300C. That should be the easiest way to tell.

Getting a master cylinder to fit under the Bellows booster and clear the 392 engine and still function properly with whatever given caliper you use will be the most nightmarish part of converting an Imperial to disc brakes. No disc brake supplier will offer or suggest a master cylinder that works with the 392 engine. They all subtly suggest to figure it out yourself. Nathan's suggestion for the Mitsubishi master cylinder is the best solution I've seen so far if it works.

4 years ago, Wilwood made a custom disc conversion kit for Jay Leno's 1958 convertible. If you carefully watch the video for his new 1957 coupe, you'll notice he couldn't get WilWood to do another kit even for him and he had to rebuild the original drum brakes!

As of March 2020, Scarebird does not make a kit for the Imperial. I previously used their 15in Chrysler kit with the Dodge Ram calipers. They no longer offer that one. Now their kit fits 14in wheels but also uses a much smaller caliper. It may be acceptable for a lighter weight Dodge or Plymouth but I do not feel it's enough to stop a 5,000lb Imperial (especially a heavier convertible).
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KcImperial
Posted 2020-07-25 8:32 PM (#601307 - in reply to #601290)
Subject: RE: Front disc brakes and '57-59 Imperial: "mission impossible"



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I'm currently converting my pink sedan to disc brakes. I swapped front spindles and steering arm from a 57-58 Chrysler New Yorker. This will make it use the smaller 5x4.5 wheel bolt pattern. I also use a 67-68 Chrysler C body rear axle so it matches.

Previously on other Imperials, I cut out the firewall and replaced the entire brake pedal assembly to use a newer booster and master cylinder. This time I tried the 8in booster with 1968 hemi relocating bracket to raise it higher. I still had to do minor modifications to the firewall and raise it even higher so it clears the valve cover. I haven't tried the wire covers yet to see if they fit.

I'm using AAJ's larger 15in kit for full size Chrysler (swapped NY'er spindles). Everything is installed but I have not road tested it yet. I'm still not 100% happy with the booster and may try something different. At this point, I have right at $1,000 in parts and still need to buy new wheels, tires, and hubcaps too.



(IMG_20200505_144800787.jpg)



(IMG_20200505_181418729.jpg)



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(IMG_20200505_183345268.jpg)



(IMG_20200509_170454733.jpg)



(IMG_20200510_200339397.jpg)



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Attachments IMG_20200505_144800787.jpg (172KB - 7 downloads)
Attachments IMG_20200505_181418729.jpg (205KB - 7 downloads)
Attachments IMG_20200505_183320455.jpg (167KB - 7 downloads)
Attachments IMG_20200505_183345268.jpg (124KB - 7 downloads)
Attachments IMG_20200509_170454733.jpg (186KB - 7 downloads)
Attachments IMG_20200510_200339397.jpg (130KB - 7 downloads)
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Powerflite
Posted 2020-07-26 1:26 AM (#601320 - in reply to #601290)
Subject: RE: Front disc brakes and '57-59 Imperial: "mission impossible"



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This was the master I used on my New Yorker. It fit fine with the wire covers and was pretty easy to swap in there. Only problem is they sold out of them and I don't know where to get more of them. The Mitsu master is similar except the lines go downward, so that's might not work.
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Powerflite
Posted 2020-07-26 1:27 AM (#601321 - in reply to #601290)
Subject: RE: Front disc brakes and '57-59 Imperial: "mission impossible"



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Posts: 6645
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Location: So. California
This was the master I used on my New Yorker. It fit fine with the wire covers and was pretty easy to swap in there. Only problem is they sold out of them and I don't know where to get more of them. The Mitsu master is similar except the lines go downward, so that's might not work. I guess you could always go with the flat top dual master for a '67-'69 C-body.



(392 zoom.jpg)



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Attachments 392 zoom.jpg (173KB - 6 downloads)
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Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2020-07-26 3:36 AM (#601326 - in reply to #601290)
Subject: Re: Front disc brakes and '57-59 Imperial: "mission impossible"



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KcImperial - 2020-07-26 2:32 AM

I'm currently converting my pink sedan to disc brakes. I swapped front spindles and steering arm from a 57-58 Chrysler New Yorker. This will make it use the smaller 5x4.5 wheel bolt pattern.
What do you call steering arm ? The pitman arm ? It's the same on all "large" cars, Imperial hasn't a specific pitman arm.

Just a question, with the M/C assy. as seen on pics, could you remove the valve cover or sparkplugs without removing the M/C ?

I've found some (2004) Mitsu M/C on Rockauto, it's the one you're talking about: https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=6691268&cc=3295933&jsn=3... . Seems that the outlets are not on the right side !

Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2020-07-26 3:37 AM
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Powerflite
Posted 2020-07-26 3:52 AM (#601328 - in reply to #601290)
Subject: Re: Front disc brakes and '57-59 Imperial: "mission impossible"



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Location: So. California
No the steering arm mounts to the knuckle and provides a mount for the outer tie rod.

You have to remove the master first on mine. Make the lines with 3/16" and they bend easily to do it.

Yes, that's it. But it might not work with the hemi. Here is a picture of it on my '58 DeSoto.





(58FF Remote Brake Master.jpg)



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Attachments 58FF Remote Brake Master.jpg (169KB - 6 downloads)
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KcImperial
Posted 2020-07-26 9:54 AM (#601335 - in reply to #601326)
Subject: Re: Front disc brakes and '57-59 Imperial: "mission impossible"



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Phil_the_frenchie - 2020-07-26 2:36 AM
What do you call steering arm ? The pitman arm ? It's the same on all "large" cars, Imperial hasn't a specific pitman arm.

As Nathan said, "steering arm mounts to the knuckle and provides a mount for the outer tie rod"
It's unique only to Imperial, same as the spindle/knuckle.
Here's a pic if it helps



(IMG_20200509_154555565.jpg)



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Attachments IMG_20200509_154555565.jpg (159KB - 5 downloads)
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KcImperial
Posted 2020-07-26 9:56 AM (#601336 - in reply to #601326)
Subject: Re: Front disc brakes and '57-59 Imperial: "mission impossible"



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Phil_the_frenchie - 2020-07-26 2:36 AM
Just a question, with the M/C assy. as seen on pics, could you remove the valve cover or sparkplugs without removing the M/C ?

even worse... I have to remove master cylinder AND brake booster!



(IMG_20200505_153647359.jpg)



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Attachments IMG_20200505_153647359.jpg (170KB - 5 downloads)
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