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Drive in N !
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Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2020-07-29 4:39 PM (#601473)
Subject: Drive in N !



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Hi all,
As you know i've overhauled a lot of TQF "'iron" and today i've a problem with one, one of the last model, installed in a '61 Polara 2 dr H/T, rare car...
The transmission, overhauled (not by me) 4 years ago had lost the R and drives (lightly) in N. The problem of reverse is solved (wrong adjustement of rear band) but the transmision (1835090, curious original number for a '61 *) engaged in N. Only light engagement, need to accelerate a little, and can't drive the car as in D, but itsn't secure ...
The cable has a perfect adjustement, done with oil pan removed and manual ball lever perfectly seat in sectors (and neutral extension lever on the middle of electrical switch when N, i don't trust the explanations of the adjustement wheel, i always set the cable with oil pan off) so itsn't a cable problem. The transmission works OK in 1 / 2/ D and R.
I suspect the valve body, seems the valve body plate has some wear where the balls (6) seat so the balls will not fit perfectly their seat.
If someone has a '60-61 valve body, let me know. 56-59 will not fit, i've a bunc of them and they can't be mounted on the transmission.

* Edit: wrong reading, the correct number is (W) 2204753 (25), which is ok)

Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2020-07-29 4:44 PM
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-07-29 5:02 PM (#601476 - in reply to #601473)
Subject: RE: Drive in N !



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Phil_the_frenchie - 2020-07-29 1:39 PM As you know i've overhauled a lot of TQF "'iron" and today i've a problem with one, one of the last model, installed in a '61 Polara 2 dr H/T, rare car...
The transmission, overhauled (not by me) 4 years ago had lost the R and drives (lightly) in N. The problem of reverse is solved (wrong adjustment of rear band) but the transmission (1835090, curious original number for a '61 *)


You sure about that number? I thought 18nnnnn = 1958. And 1958 TF transmissions had numbers like 1824 561, 1854 159, 1854 165 and 1853 917.

I checked 1835090 in the 50-65 Mopar Parts interchange and nothing shows up either.

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wizard
Posted 2020-07-30 1:30 AM (#601480 - in reply to #601473)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



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Phil, seems like theres no free play in the front clutch. Too thick clutch disks or no full return of the piston.
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Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2020-07-30 3:33 AM (#601483 - in reply to #601473)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



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Yes, it's a possibility. The front clutch piston is a eight levers. The clearance is i think the same as on 4 levers system (.020 to .040). I've always difficulties to understand the free play method with 1824319 plate, i suppose that this plate doesn't fall on the clutch pack but stays on the shoulders of the housing.
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Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2020-07-30 3:58 AM (#601484 - in reply to #601483)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



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Another question, i can't find hydraulic schematics on '59, '60, '61 shop manuals so i think it's the same as on the '58.
Do you think that the ball check valves (5 in '58 + 1 bleed valve , 6 in 59 and later) are the A, B, C etc.. on the drawing ? I've circled the ball check valves
What are the purpose of theses valves and how the works ?



Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2020-07-30 5:03 AM




(57TQFballcheckvalves [1280x768].jpg)



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Attachments 57TQFballcheckvalves [1280x768].jpg (199KB - 92 downloads)
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Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2020-07-30 5:11 AM (#601485 - in reply to #601484)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



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I reply to my own question !!!!!
As i don't see any ball check valves in the forward clutch hydraulic i think that the problem came from another. But i haven't the '60/61 hydraulic schematics (ther's 6 ball valves in the valve body, not 5)

Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2020-07-30 5:15 AM




(checkvalve [1280x768].jpg)



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Attachments checkvalve [1280x768].jpg (151KB - 97 downloads)
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wizard
Posted 2020-08-03 3:13 AM (#601631 - in reply to #601473)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



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Sorry for late reply Phil, been very busy lately. Actually, I have not found the purpose of the sixth check valve ball for the 60 TF, but at least I found a decent photo of the locations of the balls.

Hope this will help you slightly




(TF 60 Valve body check valves.jpg)



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Attachments TF 60 Valve body check valves.jpg (171KB - 97 downloads)
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Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2020-10-14 4:25 PM (#604450 - in reply to #601473)
Subject: RE: Drive in N !



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Hi all,

Since some months i've the '61 Polara in my garage, it can't go from it, the car stalls very fast after 1 or 2 meters. I suspect the carb and fuel pump. But ...

So we found a trailer to go the a more suitable garage ! Note that the car could do some meters ahead or reverse, but if i put a little gas the car stalls ! As the car always drives in N we decides to remove another time the transmission. But the complete transmisson and not the units as we did in july.

Surptise, surpise .... The converter reaction shaft is broken !!! What could produce this breakage ? The car could drive with this breakage ?





(IMG_20201014_172324 1600fili-moi.jpg)



(IMG_20201014_172333 1600fili-moi.jpg)



(IMG_20201014_170454 1600fili-moi.jpg)



(IMG_20201014_170447 1600fili-moi.jpg)



(IMG_20201014_170343 1600fili-moi.jpg)



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Attachments IMG_20201014_172324 1600fili-moi.jpg (239KB - 49 downloads)
Attachments IMG_20201014_172333 1600fili-moi.jpg (134KB - 50 downloads)
Attachments IMG_20201014_170454 1600fili-moi.jpg (127KB - 54 downloads)
Attachments IMG_20201014_170447 1600fili-moi.jpg (183KB - 52 downloads)
Attachments IMG_20201014_170343 1600fili-moi.jpg (248KB - 51 downloads)
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Shep
Posted 2020-10-14 4:31 PM (#604451 - in reply to #604450)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



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Phil, I think something in the convertor seized and and caused the reaction support to break, remember that is a fixed component.
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wizard
Posted 2020-10-14 4:37 PM (#604452 - in reply to #601473)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



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Yes, the converter seized. Never saw so grave damage before.
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Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2020-10-14 4:55 PM (#604453 - in reply to #601473)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



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But we can rotate the converter from its teeth of the reaction shaft , it turns !
And if the converter seized the car could go ahead or reverse ?

Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2020-10-14 4:57 PM
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Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2020-10-14 5:08 PM (#604454 - in reply to #601473)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



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It's very strange because in july we tried to repair the problem of the Tqf (no R and drive in N). After a day we have the R (bad adjustment of band) and it seems that the car didn't drive in N. We made a lot of tests with a lot of kickdown to verify if the throtthe lever was well adjusted. All was fine. After that the owner filled the gas tank and parked the car at my home. When i tried some days after to drive the car there was problem with the carb or fuel pump so i let the car sitting at home. In september i re-tried to start the car, need some ga sin the carb to start but stalled after i made 2 meters in R. I restarted the car, go in D 2 meters, ok, 2 meters in R, ok or stalls after another test. Look like the car was "locked", can't push it .... But after a re-start the car goes ahead again (2 meters).
Last week i decide to drive the car to another garage, with more place than at my home. I start the car (always with some gas poured in the carb), i drove it 10 meters in R then 50 meter in D but at a light pressure on gas it stalls again ! So we put it on a trailer. At its new garage i could again drive the car in R on 5 meters.
And today we open the transmission.
My friend (mecanic) told me that the problem is not a today problem. But i can't explain how the car could drive, even 1 or 2 meters, with a converter shaft broken !!!!!

It's also vey curiois that the shaft broke in several area and not at one !

Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2020-10-14 5:11 PM
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Shep
Posted 2020-10-14 7:13 PM (#604455 - in reply to #604454)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



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Phil it shattered from. excess torque being applied. Better go thru the trans for debris, this could also cause the engine to stall at idle or low speeds.
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Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2020-10-15 3:31 AM (#604470 - in reply to #601473)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



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THanks to all for replies.
We've completly disassembled the trans, the clutches are also bad. And the two valves (converter and regulator valves in the regulator valve body) were locked/seized.
Do you think thay the converter needs to be replaced ?
I've found some converter reaction shaft but they are in aluminium ! I've an aluminium shaft in my spare parts (from an earty 57 transmission), these shafts were replaced during 1957 year by the iron one. Too weak ?

Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2020-10-15 4:30 AM
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wizard
Posted 2020-10-15 3:58 AM (#604472 - in reply to #601473)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



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With such damage and small debrise I wouldn't use the converter. If some vanes fell off and blocked the movement, the converter might be full of Metal parts. The alu reaktion shafts was upgraded to iron, should be identical but stronger.
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Shep
Posted 2020-10-15 1:43 PM (#604488 - in reply to #604472)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



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wizard - 2020-10-15 3:58 AM

With such damage and small debrise I wouldn't use the converter. If some vanes fell off and blocked the movement, the converter might be full of Metal parts. The alu reaktion shafts was upgraded to iron, should be identical but stronger.
Agreed, do not reuse the convertor.
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