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57 D500 transmission options
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Brushwolf
Posted 2021-06-15 3:01 PM (#612802)
Subject: 57 D500 transmission options


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Have the D500 hemi rebuilt and still have body and frame work to do on the car. 57 CRL 2 dr hdtp. Came with an air-cooled 3 spd Torqueflight.

This was my uncles car. He bought it off a used car lot in the early 60's. Transmission went out quickly and it was replaced by dealer. He traded it in a couple years later on a 61 Pontiac Ventura. Several years later he found where the 57 was sitting with flattened cam and trans out again(?). He bought it back, dragged it around between houses for decades and finally sold it to me. He bought an already restored 58 for himself.

57 transmission as I acquired it had stripped input shaft splines, damaged aluminum bellhousing and no idea what the inside looks like on it. But it had been abused before the car was parked again and that transmission was also sitting outside in the car for those decades exposed to the elements. Torque convertor laying in the trunk uncovered. So, I think that trans has had it, but have not taken it apart.

After I got the car, I bought a couple of complete later year fluid cooled cast iron torqueflite transmissions figuring those were more durable and should fit the motor. More recently I also acquired for parts a partially stripped 57 Desoto Firesweep with a 325 poly and stripped it the rest of the way. It sat for many years in SD and no idea why it was parked originally. But it was a 4 dr plain-Jane vehicle which had apparently not taken quite the beating the hemi Dodge had taken.

Stripped the Desoto 325 motor down and nothing obvious wrong with it, besides slightly stuck. That car had a duplicate of the original Dodge air cooled transmission, bellhousing and all of it appears to be in good shape. Fluid looked very good. Nothing obviously broken like the Dodge trans.

I don't know anything about these transmissions, since I put sticks in everything. But, this one I want to leave with the 3 speed pushbutton automatic. I do not care about originality. I think I need to find a shop in MN or Eastern WI and have one of these transmissions rebuilt. Would like some suggestions as to which transmission to have rebuilt (assuming they all fit). Could go find numbers on the cases if that would help. Got like 5 torqueflites sitting in a Suburban out back.

I am tempted to go with either the 57 Desoto air cooled unit cuz everything should be exact fit, or one of 2 later cast iron fluid cooled units depending on swap complexity.. At least one of those fluid cooled units is reportedly off a 392 so maybe more durable... Figure to have one rebuilt while I do other work on the car.

If you had this car and this bunch of transmissions, how would you proceed from here assuming a shop will rebuild whichever one is selected for rebuild? If you need more info to apprise the prospects, lmk..

Thanks

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Mopar1
Posted 2021-06-15 3:32 PM (#612804 - in reply to #612802)
Subject: Re: 57 D500 transmission options



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Trannys from Hemis, hemi based Polys and "A" Polys up to '61 will fit, may be minor differences in the OEM adaptor plate. Or...just get a 392 to 727 adaptor and put in a SB 727. Lots of then in Vans and Pick ups. I like the one from QEC. On the ones you have the fluid cooled ones should be easier to find parts for. There's also the 2 speed PowerFlites out there...
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Brushwolf
Posted 2021-06-15 3:59 PM (#612805 - in reply to #612804)
Subject: Re: 57 D500 transmission options


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While a later 727 might be preferable in some respects, none of those utilize the 3 speed push button shifter do they? Want to retain that also...
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Mopar1
Posted 2021-06-15 5:25 PM (#612807 - in reply to #612805)
Subject: Re: 57 D500 transmission options



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Those up to '65(?) can use the buttons. Imperial Services makes, if they're still around, or used to make, an adaptor to use them on newer trannys.
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-06-15 7:38 PM (#612808 - in reply to #612802)
Subject: RE: 57 D500 transmission options



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I am not going to try to suggest what you should do. If it were me, I would try to stick with the cast-iron TF rather than get into converting to a later aluminum case TF, even if it was better. I think that the keeping the D500 as close as possible to original, maybe with a few period correct upgrades, is the way I would go.

I would think that an oil-cooled torque converter from 1957-58 would be appropriate, assuming that it is good condition

That said, the original oil-cooled Powerflite and early (56 Imperial) TFs, used an external water/oil heat exchanger. By 1957, they were incorporating the oil-cooling into the radiator. If you could find such a radiator (or have one made with the internal cooler), that would be period correct. Alternatively, you could go with a modern external transmission cooler.





The early cast-iron TFs (like 1956 and 57) used a front pump that used 0.68" thick gears (it's a gear pump). Very soon (like 1958), they decided to increase the size of the pump to 0.81" thick. On that basis, I would go for an oil-cooled 58 cast-iron TF with the 0.81" thick front pump. If you find and post the transmission assembly numbers (stamped on the TF filler side of the case (not to be confused with the cast casing numbers), we should be able to help you figure out which of your 5 cast-iron TFs would be best for you (to start with).





Pump thickness reference: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=72417&...

Example, very early A-466 Cast Iron TF assembly number stamp:







Edited by 56D500boy 2021-06-15 11:24 PM




(9-46-4TorqueConverterPNs.jpg)



(21-02-1TorqueFliteAssemblyNumbersIncluding1823593.jpg)



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Brushwolf
Posted 2021-06-15 11:49 PM (#612812 - in reply to #612802)
Subject: RE: 57 D500 transmission options


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Trans that was in the car. Air cooled, stripped outer input splines, crud in torque converter...



(20210615_220410_resized.jpg)



(20210615_220445_resized.jpg)



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Brushwolf
Posted 2021-06-15 11:55 PM (#612815 - in reply to #612802)
Subject: Re: 57 D500 transmission options


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First of the 2 liquid cooled cast iron transmissions. Both have engine plate, torque converter, crank bolts attached to them.
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Brushwolf
Posted 2021-06-16 12:00 AM (#612816 - in reply to #612802)
Subject: Re: 57 D500 transmission options


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Having issues loading pics.. Option no longer appears to add a pic after post..



(20210615_221242_resized.jpg)



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Brushwolf
Posted 2021-06-16 12:04 AM (#612817 - in reply to #612802)
Subject: RE: 57 D500 transmission options


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2nd cast iron liquid cooled trans...



(20210615_222019_resized.jpg)



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Brushwolf
Posted 2021-06-16 12:12 AM (#612818 - in reply to #612802)
Subject: Re: 57 D500 transmission options


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4th cast iron TF is the 57 Desoto trans. Can't really see the numbers. It is air cooled, everything intact, even the shifter cable. Will try again tomorrow to see if I can get clearer numbers..



(20210615_223053_resized.jpg)



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Brushwolf
Posted 2021-06-16 12:20 AM (#612820 - in reply to #612802)
Subject: Re: 57 D500 transmission options


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The fifth TF was the one that is probably a 61-62 aluminum case, cable shifted, probably big block bell pattern.
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-06-16 2:03 AM (#612821 - in reply to #612820)
Subject: Re: 57 D500 transmission options



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Hope you can clean up that 4th cast iron one so you can make out the Assembly PN.

As for the other three, 1736 546 makes sense as the OE air-cooled TF. I am guessing that it will be possible to find an NOS 27 spline reaction shaft. The PNs are 1738 247, 1823 869 and 1853 594 (see below). Fatsco has them:

https://www.fatsco.net/online-store/1956-1961-Cast-Iron-Torqueflite-...

Len Dawson's Deception Pass Motor parts has a 1783 247:

Loc Quanity Part # Description Application Price
S-4 1 1738247 AUTOM 3 SPD REACTION SHAFT, 27 SPLINES, 7 5/8” 57 TO TRANS #438860 EX SOME DS 180

The other two TFs, 1738 227E and 1738 227R, were for 57-58 Chryslers, a heavier car = should be more capable for a 57 D500 (at least I would think so). Of the two, I am guessing that the 227R is the later iteration and should have had the most up-to-date parts and modifications (remember that they were learning on the job what worked and what didn't).



Edited by 56D500boy 2021-06-16 2:20 AM




(57-58TorqueFliteAssemblyPNs.jpg)



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Brushwolf
Posted 2021-06-16 9:08 AM (#612830 - in reply to #612802)
Subject: Re: 57 D500 transmission options


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My uncle had said the dealer had put in a Plymouth trans in when the original went out. Makes sense on the 2 fluid cooled ones being Chrysler. At least one, maybe both were said to be off Chrysler hemis.
Dentist appointment this morning, will call Desoto numbers afterwards..
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-06-16 10:38 AM (#612835 - in reply to #612830)
Subject: Re: 57 D500 transmission options



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The 1736 546 was used in 57-58 Dodges, 57 Desotos and 58 Plymouths. I missed it the first time but it actually says 1736 546 I, as in "eye" so the 9th iteration and probably from a 58 Plymouth. Might have the thicker front pump in it. All in all not necessarily a bad thing, especially if you replace that 27 spline reaction shaft with a NOS one.

That said, the later Chrysler ones might be more robust and will very likely have the thicker pump.



Edited by 56D500boy 2021-06-16 10:38 AM
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Brushwolf
Posted 2021-06-16 1:41 PM (#612841 - in reply to #612802)
Subject: Re: 57 D500 transmission options


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Here is the Desoto again. Had silver paint over the numbers but even judiciously removing that they are very faint. 77546D? 77846D? 77346D? If there is supposed to be a one ahead of the 7's I don't see even a trace of it.. What does the 2nd set of numbers indicate?



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56D500boy
Posted 2021-06-16 2:40 PM (#612842 - in reply to #612841)
Subject: Re: 57 D500 transmission options



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Too bad. That number (even 77546D) doesn't make much sense. The only TF transmission in that 57-58 listing that ends in 46 is 1736 546 which is the air cooled TF.

Does this one with 77546 have the oil cooling line ports on the sides like 1738 227 ones do?

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Brushwolf
Posted 2021-06-16 4:23 PM (#612845 - in reply to #612842)
Subject: Re: 57 D500 transmission options


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The Desoto was an air cooled transmission. Looks identical to the one that came from car. Finned converter, screened bell housing cooling windows, no coolant lines. Both had 325 engines, but the Desoto was a poly.2v.
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-06-16 4:34 PM (#612848 - in reply to #612845)
Subject: Re: 57 D500 transmission options



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Brushwolf - 2021-06-16 1:23 PM
The Desoto was an air cooled transmission. Looks identical to the one that came from car. Finned converter, screened bell housing cooling windows, no coolant lines. Both had 325 engines, but the Desoto was a poly.2v.



Sounds like the Desoto was a Firesweep = Desoto front and rear bits on a Dodge chassis (with Dodge engine, so a 325 poly makes sense).

Air cooled so it was likely a 1736 546.

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Brushwolf
Posted 2021-06-16 4:37 PM (#612849 - in reply to #612842)
Subject: Re: 57 D500 transmission options


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The Desoto was an air cooled transmission. Looks identical to the one that came from car. Finned converter, screened bell housing cooling windows, no coolant lines. Both had 325 engines, but the Desoto was a poly.2v. Could that number be for a 2 speed trans? The shifter button assembly was already gone from the car, so IDK for sure how many buttons it had.
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Brushwolf
Posted 2021-06-16 4:44 PM (#612850 - in reply to #612802)
Subject: Re: 57 D500 transmission options


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Yep, I knew about that Firesweep almost is a Dodge business, which is why I went to SD to get it. Same block as the hemi, same frame. Plan to modify the nice right front fender back to Dodgr profile. Have multiple left fenders. Only one right front fender that is not in great shape. Bumpers, gauges, taillights all specific to Desoto were gone, but I didn't care about that stuff anyway.
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Brushwolf
Posted 2021-06-16 4:49 PM (#612851 - in reply to #612802)
Subject: Re: 57 D500 transmission options


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I read somewhere that they cut Dodge fenders to make Firesweep fenders. Looks to be true in comparing them. I will reverse that process and graft Dodge front lower fender on to the Desoto fender.
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-06-16 7:24 PM (#612854 - in reply to #612849)
Subject: Re: 57 D500 transmission options



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Brushwolf - 2021-06-16 1:37 PM
The Desoto was an air cooled transmission. Looks identical to the one that came from car. Finned converter, screened bell housing cooling windows, no coolant lines. Both had 325 engines, but the Desoto was a poly.2v. Could that number be for a 2 speed trans?


The Powerflites are about 3.5" shorter than the Cast Iron A-466 early Torqueflites so you could easily tell it was a Powerflite. And the shifters on the transmission are different too.

Here is the A-466 from a 57 Windsor that I had rebuilt and installed in my 56 Dodge D500. Note the cast aluminum shifter housing.



Here is the shifter cable on Powerflite. Completely different than the Torqueflite above.







Edited by 56D500boy 2021-06-16 11:08 PM
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Brushwolf
Posted 2021-06-16 11:14 PM (#612857 - in reply to #612802)
Subject: Re: 57 D500 transmission options


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Yep, DeSoto is indeed a TF then as originally surmised. It has the aluminum cable mounting provision just like your first pic and the 2 Chrysler TF out in the Suburban and the trans that was in the car.

So, best guesses are the 1736546 D is the Desoto TF trans number (though it sure looks like 77?46D in the first pic), the 1736546 I (aye) is the number of the Plymouth(?) trans that was in the car. So, if I was to retain an air cooled transmission (though neither of these are original to the car anyway), is there any way to tell what parts interchange between the two units from the D and I suffixes? Other set of number behind those means what?

And the two Chrysler 1738227 (E and R) TF's are a similar deal. Almost the same unit as the other, but perhaps not entirely... ?

New parts equally hard to find for both 1736546 and 1738227?


Thanks.

Edited by Brushwolf 2021-06-16 11:51 PM
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Brushwolf
Posted 2021-06-17 2:51 AM (#612860 - in reply to #612802)
Subject: Re: 57 D500 transmission options


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Was just browsing online to see how tough parts are to find.. Ads (always the gospel truth..) make it look like rebuild kits cover everything 56-61 from air-cooled Belvedere TF to fluid cooled Imperial TF. That the case?

Anyone dealt with this outfit or recommend other suppliers? https://www.moparmall.com/1956-1961-A-466-cast-iron-Transmissn-Rebui...

Are there any books or online videos in rebuilding these transmissions in case I can't find a shop in the vicinity experienced with these? Prefer to hire it out, but if all else fails I would rather try it myself than give it to a national chain with 20 yr old employees doing the work. I have rebuilt multiple Ford toploaders T85 OD's and T10's. Even a T56 rebuild with a mid-shifter kit installed to clear bench seat.

I found this on Imperial TF which is not a repair manual, but takes a little of the mystery out if it.. http://www.ch300imp.com/tqf-intro.htm

But, I have not successfully repaired an automatic other than replacing seals, filters and pan gaskets.. Tried once on a 68 Plymouth TF transmission when I was 20. Had no idea what I was doing. Just looked for broken parts and replaced them. The trans worked afterward and did not leak, but would not shift to 3rd. But, just maybe I could do it now if I took my time....
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-06-17 11:12 AM (#612866 - in reply to #612860)
Subject: Re: 57 D500 transmission options



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I had scored a "complete" A-466 cast iron Torqueflite rebuild kit for dirt money off ebay and had the 57 Windsor 1736 544 (earlier version of the 1736 546?) air-cooled TF rebuilt. In addition to the parts in the kit, I had to provide a better front pump, a better strainer and newly relined front and rear bands. I also supplied a new old stock valve body that I had bought off eBay. I got the front pump parts from friendly and generous people here, the strainer off ebay and the front and rear bands relined by Fatsco (on an exchange basis). I have dealt with Mopar Mall on other items but in this case, I would recommend Fatsco for all your needs.

https://www.fatsco.net/online-store/Cast-Iron-Torqueflite-c18246062

There are many many parts that could need replacing but you could start with their kit. (I would never take this on even with the guidance of Don Verity's DIY):

http://www.chrysler300club.com/tech/trans/torqueflite.html







Edited by 56D500boy 2021-06-17 11:54 AM
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Brushwolf
Posted 2021-06-17 1:07 PM (#612873 - in reply to #612802)
Subject: Re: 57 D500 transmission options


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Yeah they do look complicated, but so did the T56.

https://www.drivetrain.com/parts-catalog/manual-transmission-rebuild...

I wouldn't t have even taken that apart, except I thought it was just a broken shift fork for gears 5-6 which is in tailhousing. All other gears worked and knew I had just done an easy shift to 5th on the freeway when all of a sudden, no 5-6 gears any more. Turned out to be much more complicated. The inside splines on the gear on mainshaft driving 5-6 were stripped inside and so were the splines on the main shaft. Whole thing had to come apart and had to buy some special tools and make others. Shifter relocation required significant disassembly also, so while I was in there I did that too. It was a bit of a struggle, but got it together and it works.

Of course that was still mechanical mostly and no fluid pump business. But I have a big Case loader and a small Terex tracked loader and have had to troubleshoot and repair some of the hydraulic systems on those now and then. So that has clarified the hydraulic aspects a bit at least. But, I would still rather pay someone to do it in the interests of time unless I can't find someone who has done these before.

I do have the advantage of already having multiple transmissions though, so I could take one apart for learning purposes and the multiple units also could perhaps supply any hard to find hard parts. I had checked Fatsco and they are sold out on all major kits and bands, but they have seals and gaskets (minor kits).

Thanks for the additional links with the pics on rebuild overview. I figure even if I find someone else to do it they will still perhaps have the same difficulty acquiring parts that you did and my knowing more about the process and possible parts sources would make it easier to efficiently resolve any issues that come up, if I have some kind of idea what they are talking about.




Edited by Brushwolf 2021-06-17 1:25 PM
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-06-17 3:30 PM (#612876 - in reply to #612873)
Subject: Re: 57 D500 transmission options



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In a perfect world (Say WHAT??), you would find/buy a working TF trans that you could install and drive the car while you sort out the 4 or 5 TFs that you have and make one good one.

While that might be possible, it is less than a done deal. Therefore Plan B is to work with what you have. Honestly, I would try to get one of the oil-cooled TFs working because they would have been more robust than the air-cooled TFs (in the Dodge and the Firesweep Dodgsota).

Have a look through Phil Courant's website for TF info too:

http://www.ch300imp.com/mainpage_us.htm

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Brushwolf
Posted 2021-06-17 4:54 PM (#612878 - in reply to #612802)
Subject: Re: 57 D500 transmission options


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That is a thought, to pick one of the units and do some low cost minor refurbishment like filter, front and rear seals, after inspecting for physical damage to anything accessible without major disassembly and just see if it works hooked to engine on my run stand.

One of the Chrysler units has carefully plugged lines like whoever pulled it was trying to preserve it. Perhaps cuz it was working,.. I think one of the sellers said it had been a working transmission when pulled but IDR which one. Maybe pulling the pans to see which looks better would be the thing to do first...

The Desoto trans is an unknown other than what I saw removing it, but it had no visible issues at all, cable even still works and it had very nice fluid in it though (in fact a bunch lof it leaked on my pole barn floor recently after rolling its cart to a different location ...) Although it may be less durable than the Chrysler units, if it worked it might at least serve the short term.


Any pointers on evaluating the torque converters? Are the converters different, aside from the air cooled ones having fins? I imagine it is best to keep the converters with the trans they came on, but was curious if there are multiple torque converter evolutions involved too for the different iterations of the transmissions.

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Brushwolf
Posted 2021-06-17 5:18 PM (#612879 - in reply to #612802)
Subject: Re: 57 D500 transmission options


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A-466 is air cooled and A-488 is fluid cooled?
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-06-17 8:45 PM (#612880 - in reply to #612879)
Subject: Re: 57 D500 transmission options



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Brushwolf - 2021-06-17 2:18 PM
A-466 is air cooled and A-488 is fluid cooled?


Apparently the "A-488" was a typo that many people repeated and repeated until it became real. But they were all A-466s. No A-488s. (At least that was what I was told).



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