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Investigation of Disc Brake Alternatives for a 56 Dodge D500
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56D500boy
Posted 2022-02-28 9:38 PM (#619898)
Subject: Investigation of Disc Brake Alternatives for a 56 Dodge D500



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56 Dodge D500s, unless they were destined for the race track (think early NASCAR), came with 56 Chrysler Center Plane 12" x 2.5" drum brakes. Although my car is a 56 Dodge D500 "Special", it still came with the "standard" D500 brakes (normal 11" Dodge brakes were a non-recommended option). I have been mostly happy with these drum brakes but when the weather gets damp and the car does not get driven daily, the front brakes can be a super pain in the butt, i.e. they lock up until you get through the "fuzz" that has built up on the inside of the drum and/or the swelling of the cheap Chinese brake shoes lining that I have been running.

As a result, I have finally, this year, decided to move towards installing front disc brakes using 1977 Chrysler Cordoba 11.75" x 1", 5 on 4.5", rotors and brackets from either Scarebird or AAJ. AAJ has a kit specifically for 1956 Chryslers (which my D500 brakes are - mostly - except for the steering arm). Scarebird says that they do not have a bracket for 56 Chryslers but I saw their 57 to 61 Mopar bracket kit and decided that it had possibilities for working on a 56 Chrysler upright and spindle. So I bought a Scarebird kit. I also bought an AAJ 56 Chrysler kit to compare and contrast.

Not wanting to disable my 56 Dodge while I was checking these two kits out, I contacted John F. at Big M and bought a set of left and right Chrysler uprights and spindles to play with and test. I have been playing with these since I got them, trying to make the Scarebird 57 Dodge brackets work. This has required some clearance grinding of the bracket so it doesn't bump into the 56 Chrysler spindle steering arm.

These Scarebird trials have been documented here:

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=76959&...

As of yesterday, I concluded that the Scarebird 57 Dodge brackets will very likely work on a 56 Chrysler, albeit after that needed clearance grinding.

Because I could not easily remove the steering arm from either the test 56 Chrysler upright or my 56 Dodge D500, I decided last night that the next step was to test the Scarebird bracket directly on my 56 Dodge D500, in situ, i.e. on the car.

Biting the bullet today, I removed the wheel (85 Dodge Diplomat cop car 15 x 7 wheel (with 235/75/15 radial tire), the spindle nut and washer, the drum and then the entire Center Plane brake system (four bolts hold the braking system to the 56 Chrysler spindle).

After cleaning the spindle up (a lot), I tried the Scarebird bracket on the spindle and determined whether the 56 Dodge D500 exclusive steering arm cleared the bracket (given that the bracket had been previously clearanced for the 56 Chrysler steering arm). Nope. Needed some additional and lower clearancing than the Chrysler clearancing.

As per my usual, I did the necessary clearancing in steps, i.e. mark, grind, test, mark, grind, test, etc until finally I could see light from my trouble light between the Scarebird bracket and the D500 steering arm.

The following photos show this process. Tomorrow I will mount the AAJ bracket to see how it fits with the D500 steering arm. (I had previously tried the AAJ bracket with the Chrysler steering arm and there was tonnes, maybe too much, clearance.)

Scarebird bracket on a 56 Dodge D500:



Edited by 56D500boy 2022-03-01 11:21 AM




(56DodgeD500With56ChryslerUprightAndSpindleAndD500SpecificSteering Arm.jpg)



(Scarebird57DodgeDiscBrakeBracketOn56DodgeD500_FirstTrial.jpg)



(Scarebird57DodgeDiscBrakeBracketOn56DodgeD500_FirstTrial_InterferenceWithD500SteeringArm_1.jpg)



(Scarebird57DodgeDiscBrakeBracketOn56DodgeD500_FirstTrial_InterferenceWithD500SteeringArm_2.jpg)



(Scarebird57DodgeDiscBrakeBracketOn56DodgeD500_FirstTrial_After2RoundsOfAdditionalClearanceGrinding.jpg)



(Scarebird57DodgeDiscBrakeBracketOn56DodgeD500_AfterClearanceGrinding.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments 56DodgeD500With56ChryslerUprightAndSpindleAndD500SpecificSteering Arm.jpg (177KB - 134 downloads)
Attachments Scarebird57DodgeDiscBrakeBracketOn56DodgeD500_FirstTrial.jpg (221KB - 131 downloads)
Attachments Scarebird57DodgeDiscBrakeBracketOn56DodgeD500_FirstTrial_InterferenceWithD500SteeringArm_1.jpg (150KB - 133 downloads)
Attachments Scarebird57DodgeDiscBrakeBracketOn56DodgeD500_FirstTrial_InterferenceWithD500SteeringArm_2.jpg (182KB - 142 downloads)
Attachments Scarebird57DodgeDiscBrakeBracketOn56DodgeD500_FirstTrial_After2RoundsOfAdditionalClearanceGrinding.jpg (160KB - 137 downloads)
Attachments Scarebird57DodgeDiscBrakeBracketOn56DodgeD500_AfterClearanceGrinding.jpg (174KB - 138 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2022-03-01 9:18 PM (#619918 - in reply to #619898)
Subject: RE: Investigation of Disc Brake Alternatives for a 56 Dodge D500



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56D500boy - 2022-02-28 6:38 PM Tomorrow I will mount the AAJ bracket to see how it fits with the D500 steering arm. (I had previously tried the AAJ bracket with the Chrysler steering arm and there was tonnes, maybe too much, clearance.)


Suddenly "tomorrow" was today.

So I removed the Scarebird bracket and attached the AAJ 56 Chrysler bracket. As "feared", with the D500 steering arm dropping down very quickly, compared to the 56 Chrysler steering arm, there is lots of room between the bracket and the steering arm. Maybe too much room.

Whether it is a real thing or not, I see a weak spot in the AAJ bracket both in the 56 Chrysler application and especially with the 56 Dodge D500 application. I think that this potential weak spot in the AAJ bracket could be eliminated with the addition of more "meat", e.g. a gusset (or two) welded to the "stock" AAJ bracket in the affected area. I think.

The next step in this process will be to line up the requirements to mount both the Scarebird and AAJ brackets, rotors, calipers, pads, etc., complete with costs (from Rock Auto) and make a final comparison and selection.

First the photos of the AAJ bracket on the 56 Chrysler spindle with the 56 Chrysler steering arm, then the photos from today of my 56 Dodge D500:





Edited by 56D500boy 2022-03-01 11:23 PM




(AAJ56ChryslerBracketOn56ChryslerSpindle_FrontSide_OverallView.jpg)



(AAJ56ChryslerBracketOn56ChryslerSpindle_FrontSide_ClearanceToSteeringArm_CorrectedWithGusset.jpg)



(AAJ56ChryslerBracketOn56DodgeD500SpindleAndSteeringArm_1.jpg)



(AAJ56ChryslerBracketOn56DodgeD500SpindleAndSteeringArm_2.jpg)



(AAJ56ChryslerBracketOn56DodgeD500SpindleAndSteeringArm_BackSide.jpg)



(AAJ56ChryslerBracketOn56DodgeD500SpindleAndSteeringArm_2_Annotated.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments AAJ56ChryslerBracketOn56ChryslerSpindle_FrontSide_OverallView.jpg (195KB - 136 downloads)
Attachments AAJ56ChryslerBracketOn56ChryslerSpindle_FrontSide_ClearanceToSteeringArm_CorrectedWithGusset.jpg (175KB - 129 downloads)
Attachments AAJ56ChryslerBracketOn56DodgeD500SpindleAndSteeringArm_1.jpg (170KB - 133 downloads)
Attachments AAJ56ChryslerBracketOn56DodgeD500SpindleAndSteeringArm_2.jpg (186KB - 139 downloads)
Attachments AAJ56ChryslerBracketOn56DodgeD500SpindleAndSteeringArm_BackSide.jpg (145KB - 129 downloads)
Attachments AAJ56ChryslerBracketOn56DodgeD500SpindleAndSteeringArm_2_Annotated.jpg (154KB - 131 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2022-03-02 2:32 PM (#619933 - in reply to #619918)
Subject: RE: Investigation of Disc Brake Alternatives for a 56 Dodge D500



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56D500boy - 2022-03-01 6:18 PM
The next step in this process will be to line up the requirements to mount both the Scarebird and AAJ brackets, rotors, calipers, pads, etc.,
complete with costs (from Rock Auto) and make a final comparison and selection.


This is the first cut at the analysis. Comments and criticisms welcome







(ComparisonOfAAJandScarebirdFrontDiscKitsFor56DodgeD500.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments ComparisonOfAAJandScarebirdFrontDiscKitsFor56DodgeD500.jpg (56KB - 138 downloads)
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Powerflite
Posted 2022-03-02 4:43 PM (#619935 - in reply to #619898)
Subject: Re: Investigation of Disc Brake Alternatives for a 56 Dodge D500



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You should include caliper piston diameter comparison. That, along with the rotor diameter are the main parameters that affect the performance. Also, I prefer the black finish to the cadmium. The cadmium will rust through eventually, but the black finish is more likely to remain there. But I would give a -30 hit for the notch that makes the bracket weak on the AAJ.

Edited by Powerflite 2022-03-02 4:48 PM
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56D500boy
Posted 2022-03-03 1:57 AM (#619950 - in reply to #619935)
Subject: Re: Investigation of Disc Brake Alternatives for a 56 Dodge D500



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Powerflite - 2022-03-02 1:43 PM
You should include caliper piston diameter comparison. That, along with the rotor diameter are the main parameters that affect the performance. Also, I prefer the black finish to the cadmium. The cadmium will rust through eventually, but the black finish is more likely to remain there. But I would give a -30 hit for the notch that makes the bracket weak on the AAJ.


I found the diameters of the caliper pistons in the detailed info for the Raybestos brand calipers in RockAuto. The AAJ Monte Carlo caliper piston is 3.00" diameter; the Scarebird Celebrity, 2.00" diameter. I gave the larger diameter piston the 10 points. But could see an argument that would say that the 3" diameter is actually bad because of the amount of fluid need to move the piston is more than a 2" piston.

I like the cadmium.

I was a bit more harsh on the modifications needed. I can't blame the AAJ bracket for not anticipating the D500 steering arm drop (but I still think there should be more meat in that thin area, even for the 56 Chrysler (and Desoto) applications).

Rev 1 is shown below. Not much change in the point spread.

Edited by 56D500boy 2022-03-03 10:07 AM




(ComparisonOfAAJandScarebirdFrontDiscKitsFor56DodgeD500_Rev1.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments ComparisonOfAAJandScarebirdFrontDiscKitsFor56DodgeD500_Rev1.jpg (69KB - 136 downloads)
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Powerflite
Posted 2022-03-03 2:43 AM (#619951 - in reply to #619898)
Subject: Re: Investigation of Disc Brake Alternatives for a 56 Dodge D500



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That tiny piston size is my biggest beef with the new Scarebird setup. They used to incorporate 1/2 ton truck calipers with 2.91" pistons and large pads. Now you have to spend $180 for some custom celebrity calipers with an extra large 2.75" piston if you want the bigger size. But the new setup is supposed to fit with 14" wheels, so that's why they changed it.
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56D500boy
Posted 2022-03-03 10:31 AM (#619954 - in reply to #619951)
Subject: Re: Investigation of Disc Brake Alternatives for a 56 Dodge D500



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Powerflite - 2022-03-02 11:43 PM
That tiny piston size is my biggest beef with the new Scarebird setup. They used to incorporate 1/2 ton truck calipers with 2.91" pistons and large pads. Now you have to spend $180 for some custom celebrity calipers with an extra large 2.75" piston if you want the bigger size.


These ones. I like the look, i.e. quality looks better that the smaller remanned ones. The price is for a pair and it includes pads so the price difference isn't too bad.

https://scarebird.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=96&produc...

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56D500boy
Posted 2022-03-03 4:58 PM (#619962 - in reply to #619918)
Subject: RE: Investigation of Disc Brake Alternatives for a 56 Dodge D500



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56D500boy - 2022-03-01 6:18 PM As "feared", with the D500 steering arm dropping down very quickly, compared to the 56 Chrysler steering arm, there is lots of room between the bracket and the steering arm. Maybe too much room.
Whether it is a real thing or not, I see a weak spot in the AAJ bracket both in the 56 Chrysler application and especially with the 56 Dodge D500 application. I think that this potential weak spot in the AAJ bracket could be eliminated with the addition of more "meat", e.g. a gusset (or two) welded to the "stock" AAJ bracket in the affected area. I think.


Found some plumbers putty (Plasticine for the DIYer) in my "plumbing supplies" bin and used a few inches of it to mock-up the metal "gusset" I would add to the AAJ 56 Chrysler bracket to my 56 D500 if I decided to go AAJ (still haven't decided).

The gusset would at least double the thickness of the metal at the perceived "weak" spot and would not interfere with anything related to the brake rotor or the caliper. I don't know whether it would be better to cut some 3/8" steel to that shape and get it welded on or just build up the shape with weld. I think the first one. (I don't weld so I don't know which way to go).

See photos of the Mock-up:

Edited by 56D500boy 2022-03-03 5:03 PM




(AAJ56ChryslerBracketOn56DodgeD500SpindleAndSteeringArm_2_MockUp_1.jpg)



(AAJ56ChryslerBracketOn56DodgeD500SpindleAndSteeringArm_2_MockUp_2.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments AAJ56ChryslerBracketOn56DodgeD500SpindleAndSteeringArm_2_MockUp_1.jpg (112KB - 124 downloads)
Attachments AAJ56ChryslerBracketOn56DodgeD500SpindleAndSteeringArm_2_MockUp_2.jpg (120KB - 135 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2022-03-03 9:54 PM (#619970 - in reply to #619950)
Subject: Re: Investigation of Disc Brake Alternatives for a 56 Dodge D500



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56D500boy - 2022-03-02 10:57 PM
I found the diameters of the caliper pistons in the detailed info for the Raybestos brand calipers in RockAuto. The AAJ Monte Carlo caliper piston is 3.00" diameter; the Scarebird Celebrity, 2.00" diameter. I gave the larger diameter piston the 10 points. But could see an argument that would say that the 3" diameter is actually bad because of the amount of fluid need to move the piston is more than a 2" piston.


Hmm....upon further investigation, it seems that new information has come to light.

Specifically, when I rechecked the piston sizes for the various 1990 Celebrity V6 caliper suppliers, it was *ONLY* Raybestos that said that the piston diameter was 2.00". All the rest say 2.496" or 2.5".

I had a set (L & R) in my hands this afternoon at a local auto parts store and I measured 2 7/16" (roughly) from the visible portion. So 2" is wrong and going to Scarebird's special 2.75" piston calipers doesn't seem that necessary. I tried a caliper in the Scarebird bracket and it fit quite well.

Going back to check the Monte Carlo piston sizes, Raybestos says 3.00" but some other say 2.935". Still bigger than the Celebrity calipers so the Monte Carlo calipers win the points.

Used some plumber's putty to "fill in" the area I ground out when testing the Scarebird bracket on the 56 Chrysler upright with 56 Chrysler steering arm. I then put the bracket back on my D500 and trimmed away the putty, bit by bit, to reveal the area (outlined in red below) that would have to be ground out for just the D500 steering arm. (see below).

Also tried the 77 Cordoba rotor in my 1985 Dodge Diplomat cop car wheel. Looks like there is lots of clearance (about 1 3/8" between the rotor and the wheel) for the caliper (regardless of which way I go).



Edited by 56D500boy 2022-03-04 9:37 AM




(57_61MoparBracketShowing56ChryslerGroundAreaInBlackAnd56D500AreaInRed.jpg)



(57_61MoparBracketShowing56ChryslerGroundAreaFilledInWithPlumbersPutty.jpg)



(57_61MoparBracketShowingAreaForGrindingFor56D500SteeringArm.jpg)



(11point75inchRotorIn15InchNominal85DiplomatCopCarWheel.jpg)



(11point75inchRotorIn15InchNominal85DiplomatCopCarWheelShowingNominalClearanceForCaliper.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments 57_61MoparBracketShowing56ChryslerGroundAreaInBlackAnd56D500AreaInRed.jpg (97KB - 132 downloads)
Attachments 57_61MoparBracketShowing56ChryslerGroundAreaFilledInWithPlumbersPutty.jpg (128KB - 126 downloads)
Attachments 57_61MoparBracketShowingAreaForGrindingFor56D500SteeringArm.jpg (156KB - 143 downloads)
Attachments 11point75inchRotorIn15InchNominal85DiplomatCopCarWheel.jpg (177KB - 126 downloads)
Attachments 11point75inchRotorIn15InchNominal85DiplomatCopCarWheelShowingNominalClearanceForCaliper.jpg (127KB - 133 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2022-03-26 9:10 PM (#620494 - in reply to #619970)
Subject: Re: Investigation of Disc Brake Alternatives for a 56 Dodge D500



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Here is the whole assembly, with the modified Scarebird 57-61 Mopar bracket, including a 1990 Chevy Celebrity HD caliper in a 85 Dodge Diplomat cop car wheel.

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Richbo
Posted 2022-04-17 10:41 AM (#620927 - in reply to #619898)
Subject: Re: Investigation of Disc Brake Alternatives for a 56 Dodge D500


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Is that WEAK SPOT in the AAJ bracket toward the front ? My point being there may be plenty of meat in forward braking , the " weak" part used in reverse braking , which is much less load.
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