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1960fury

Posted 2022-03-21 9:37 PM (#620385)
Subject: 350+K miles wheel bearings and a question

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Recently serviced the wheel bearings in my 60 Fury, they all still look like new. The rear ones I installed in 1992 (using NOS FL period ones in the red/black/yellow boxes), the front bearings are OE. Still can't find the slightest bit of wear in the bearings or races (cups).

I never followed the adjustment procedure given in the shop manual, thinking it can't be that precise, but just for fun, I tried it this time to find out how much it is off, with a quality, dial type Snap-On Torquewrench (also from the FL-period:) and to my surprise it was spot on in exactly the same spot as before, no need to move the adjusting nut a bit!

And now the question, while the bearings are like new, there is something that worries me on the front end. I noticed a tiny bit of play when I grab the wheel in the 12 and 6 position (not the 3/9 position) that I previously misinterpreted as ball joint play, which it is not.
So I tought it must be in the bearings and since it is only in the 12/6 position it must be cone of the bearing part (not the separate race or cup), as this is the only part of the bearing that is stationary.

So I changed the position of the bearings and it is still the same. Well, I came to a conclusion that I do not like at all, I hope I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure I ain't: Worn spindels.

How could this happen? Is it possible, even though the bearing are like new and OE, that the spindles where the bearings mount developed wear, even in a greasy environment? It is at least 350K miles and 62 years and the play is very little, almost not noticeable (both sides), yet it bothers me. Anyone got an explanation for that?

Edited by 1960fury 2022-03-21 9:56 PM

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56D500boy

Posted 2022-03-21 9:59 PM (#620386 - in reply to #620385)
Subject: RE: 350+K miles wheel bearings and a question

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.
Since the knuckle and spindle is one cast piece, isn't the 12-6 play likely to be the ball joints?

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1960fury

Posted 2022-03-21 10:22 PM (#620387 - in reply to #620386)
Subject: RE: 350+K miles wheel bearings and a question

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56D500boy - 2022-03-21 9:59 PM

.
Since the knuckle and spindle is one cast piece, isn't the 12-6 play likely to be the ball joints?

It is not the ball joints. They have no play and when I overtighten the bearings to 180 inch pounds, as in the shop manual instruction, before backing off the adjusting nut 1.5 slots, the 12/6 play is gone.

The surface where the bearings touch the spindles must have wear I guess.

I marked with the red arrow where the bearing is pressed against the spindle and where the arrow points (12 o clock or upper section) it must be the worn part, as this is stressed by the weight of the car and if this is worn, it will provide 12/6 o clock play. Of course along with some wear of the part of the spindle the bearing slides on to too.

Edited by 1960fury 2022-03-21 10:46 PM

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Powerflite

Posted 2022-03-21 10:35 PM (#620388 - in reply to #620385)
Subject: Re: 350+K miles wheel bearings and a question

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I don't think so. If you can take the play out by tightening the bearing, that suggests that there is play in the bearing there. My guess is there is a small amount of overall wear that has made the ideal position 1/2 way between two setting of the castle cap. You could try going to the next tighter setting if it is bad enough to worry about. The base of your bearing should never turn on the spindle to create any wear there. If that were happening, you would have bigger problems. But you can check the dimensions of your spindle if you are worried about it. I'm not sure what the spec is on them, but probably shouldn't be more than .002" smaller than your bearing ID.

1960fury

Posted 2022-03-21 10:42 PM (#620389 - in reply to #620388)
Subject: Re: 350+K miles wheel bearings and a question

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Powerflite - 2022-03-21 10:35 PM

I don't think so. If you can take the play out by tightening the bearing, that suggests that there is play in the bearing there.

That is unfortunately impossible. As the play is ONLY at 12/6 and regardless how I place the bearing on the spindle the play will remain always at 12/6.

So the cups and rollers rotate and will never stay in one position, only the cone does and that I repositioned several times with the same result: 12/6 play.

So the bearings are ruled out. So are the ball joints, they do not move and the play disapears if I overtighten the bearings. Can't drive like that and play isn't OK too.

wizard

Posted 2022-03-22 2:33 AM (#620392 - in reply to #620385)
Subject: Re: 350+K miles wheel bearings and a question

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It’s not unusual the the spindle wears out. Check under the spindle and you might even feel the wear with your nails. One reason for this is that the bearing fitment on the spindle is too loose. Hence, all the bumps slowly hammers up the wear.

22mafeja

Posted 2022-03-22 3:51 AM (#620393 - in reply to #620385)
Subject: RE: 350+K miles wheel bearings and a question

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I would do nothing if the play is very small....next step for me would be to install new bearings.

wizard

Posted 2022-03-22 6:16 AM (#620394 - in reply to #620385)
Subject: Re: 350+K miles wheel bearings and a question

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I got very good spindles from Big-M, it's a problem to find spindles witout wear though. I was as unhappy about this as you are Sid. Now I'm pleased that theres no extra free-play.

Powerflite

Posted 2022-03-22 11:49 AM (#620396 - in reply to #620385)
Subject: Re: 350+K miles wheel bearings and a question

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If that really is the problem, you can get your spindles hard chrome plated to reduce the gap. But measure it first, and measure the ID of a new set of bearings to see how far you want to go.

57chizler

Posted 2022-03-22 12:45 PM (#620397 - in reply to #620385)
Subject: RE: 350+K miles wheel bearings and a question

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When you back the spindle nut off, even a slight amount, you introduce end play which allows some lateral movement which is a combination of the slip-fit bearings and the end play. When you take into account the leverage of the large diameter tire, even a few thousandths of play at the spindle will be amplified.

I don't think you have a problem.

1960fury

Posted 2022-03-22 8:15 PM (#620403 - in reply to #620385)
Subject: Re: 350+K miles wheel bearings and a question

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Thanks for the hints and suggestions. I will pull one side again, inspect the spindle and install the OE bearing and a new one w/o the hub and see if there is a difference or noticable play. I really dislike the thought of having worn spindles, always try to keep everything as long as possible OE.
I heard about chroming metal parts weakens the stucture of the steel. At least in Germany chromeplated suspension parts are not legal for that reason. This would also mean I'd have the spindles machined, as there is only play at 12/6. I kinda remember you mentioned worn spindles Wizard, long, long ago and I remember that I though WTF?

Thanks John, I considered that, yet play shouldn't be noticable and the slightest play will reduce steering accuracy something I aimed for with several mods since I own the car, w/o changing the major components of the stock system. Even with the worn spindles my car drives down the road straight as an arrow, yet I got to do something about it. On one side I drive now with the play adjusted out of it (bearings overtightened slightly) will see if it lasts, or what happens. I hope the synthetic Teflon "super lube" takes care of it :C

57chizler

Posted 2022-03-23 12:31 PM (#620416 - in reply to #620403)
Subject: Re: 350+K miles wheel bearings and a question

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Did you ever check the play years ago when it had less miles and compare it to today? Maybe it's never changed and you only recently noticed it.

wizard

Posted 2022-03-23 12:52 PM (#620418 - in reply to #620385)
Subject: Re: 350+K miles wheel bearings and a question

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I tried to glue the bearings with LockTite, but as I knew (still wanted to try) it didn't last very long.
With the "new" spindles, no more problems.

What the construction actually needs is a type of "crush sleeve" between the bearings so that the inner races gets full contact with each other. The sleeve has a belly that can be squezed together - this is used on GM pinion bearings.
This solution is also used on front wheel bearings on some english cars.
It's on my "to do list", but the list is long........

1960fury

Posted 2022-03-23 8:27 PM (#620437 - in reply to #620416)
Subject: Re: 350+K miles wheel bearings and a question

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57chizler - 2022-03-23 12:31 PM

Did you ever check the play years ago when it had less miles and compare it to today? Maybe it's never changed and you only recently noticed it.

That is very long ago, as I use synthetic teflon lube, that actually is supposed to last forever. Blamed it on the ball joints but already had my doubts back then. Don't remember how it was when I bought the car.

1960fury

Posted 2022-03-23 8:31 PM (#620438 - in reply to #620418)
Subject: Re: 350+K miles wheel bearings and a question

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wizard - 2022-03-23 12:52 PM

It's on my "to do list", but the list is long........

I have such a list too! But instaed of crossing out the projects, the list keeps getting longer, or at least it doesn't get shorter. It is always the same, in winters it is too cold and in summers I want to drive.

wizard

Posted 2022-03-24 3:59 AM (#620447 - in reply to #620385)
Subject: Re: 350+K miles wheel bearings and a question

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You and me both.........

1960fury

Posted 2022-03-24 9:11 PM (#620460 - in reply to #620385)
Subject: Re: 350+K miles wheel bearings and a question

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OK, thought about it and still have hope that I can keep my OE spindles. I think the problem (design fault) is the outer bearing and how they mount. It always surprised me how easy it is to pull the outer bearing on any Mopar. I think if you can take out the designed play between outer bearing and spindle, the 12/6 play will be gone, even if there is some wear already where the inner (large) bearing mounts.

At first I thought about a modified stationary retainer washer that faces the outer bearing, shaped like a cone with an accordingly machined outer bearing, so the bearing rests on the cone that takes any play out when the adjustment nut is tightnened, but this will lead to a problem machining it so acurate, that there is no play between spindle and "cone-washer", which will very likely lead to removal problems.
Then I thought, the right way is to use the threaded section of the spindle as the "thrust-surface" (if that is the right term). With other words, a nut that is cone shaped on one end, that fits into the bearing. When you tighten it you will adjust the bearing play and take out any play between the spindle and bearing at the same time. The angle of the cone should be the same as the bearing cone/race. That of course will make securing it a problem, as the fragile lock nut and a cotter pin won't be safe enough any more, I think. What do you thing about it Chitzler?

Ok Wiz, after I introduced the FL heater valve- and idler arm- problem solver, it is up to you to figur something out and offer it for sale, as I don't have a lathe. I just made your list one item longer

Edited by 1960fury 2022-03-24 9:17 PM

Powerflite

Posted 2022-03-24 9:41 PM (#620461 - in reply to #620385)
Subject: Re: 350+K miles wheel bearings and a question

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If you can find any simple cone, try it out and see if it removes the play, even if it isn't good to drive with. That will at least prove out your theory. Another way to prove your theory is to *measure* it, which it seems you still haven't done yet.

But what I see wrong about this is you say that you can over-tighten the nut and the play goes away. Imagine if the gap was large between the bearing ID and the spindle. Tightening that nut shouldn't have any effect on the play in that case. There would be no way to get rid of it. So the fact that you can get rid of it, tells me that it isn't coming from a bearing to spindle gap.

1960fury

Posted 2022-03-24 10:17 PM (#620463 - in reply to #620461)
Subject: Re: 350+K miles wheel bearings and a question

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Powerflite - 2022-03-24 9:41 PM

If you can find any simple cone, try it out and see if it removes the play, even if it isn't good to drive with. That will at least prove out your theory. Another way to prove your theory is to *measure* it, which it seems you still haven't done yet.

But what I see wrong about this is you say that you can over-tighten the nut and the play goes away. Imagine if the gap was large between the bearing ID and the spindle. Tightening that nut shouldn't have any effect on the play in that case. There would be no way to get rid of it. So the fact that you can get rid of it, tells me that it isn't coming from a bearing to spindle gap.

What else? There is no other explanation and what you said is not quite right. If you adjust the bearings the way it should be done, it is on the brink of overtightening, JUST when the 3/9 play disapears, so there is absolutely no "crush" or tension, if there is any 12/6 spindle wear it will be felt, if you overtighten, there is tension and you no longer feel the "rocking" and you probably force the outer bearing a tiny little bit more inward on the cone of the spindle. We are talking VERY little wear at the spindle, that multiplies due to the large diameter of the wheel/tire.

Again, ball joints are ruled out, as there is no play when overtightening and they are good. There is hardly any play anyway, even with bad ball joints, when the wheel is at the end of the suspension travel, joints in a unusual position.

Bearings are ruled out too, as I rotated the cone a couple of times an the play always remained in the same position, at exaclty 12/6.

What is your theorie?

wizard

Posted 2022-03-25 11:47 AM (#620474 - in reply to #620460)
Subject: Re: 350+K miles wheel bearings and a question

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1960fury - 2022-03-25 3:11 AM

Ok Wiz, after I introduced the FL heater valve- and idler arm- problem solver, it is up to you to figur something out and offer it for sale, as I don't have a lathe. I just made your list one item longer :laugh:

Thanks Sid

I do have parts for sale, most of them related to 1960 Chrysler electroluminiscent lights. Also turn signal cancel switch repair. Most of the engine bay labels reproduced in high quality.
Most of my work is renovation of MoPar equipment, transmissions, steering gears, power steering pumps among many other.

I do have an extra front wheel hub/drum as well as my worn spindles so I can check clearances for a sleeve. The ideal thing would be to make a nut ”BMW” style with clamp action with an umbrako bolt.

1960fury

Posted 2022-03-25 9:01 PM (#620487 - in reply to #620461)
Subject: Re: 350+K miles wheel bearings and a question

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Powerflite - 2022-03-24 9:41 PM

If you can find any simple cone, try it out and see if it removes the play, even if it isn't good to drive with.

As you can see there is no way to fit a cone without machining the bearing first. I just took the pictures from an exta spindle/hub from a 59 Plymouth, not serviced by me obviously.
I was wrong, the outer bearing is still miles away from the cone shaped section of the spindle, also the slot is machined way too long, into the seat of the bearing, for my taste. It is the opposite of the stressed side of the spindle but the same axis..... I wonder, could this wide slot contribute to the 12/6 play? Probably not, but it certainly does not help. I'm tempted to fabricate a wedge and hammer in in the slot to get rid of the play (should I?) but it would be the wrong direction, wish the slot was in the 6 o clock location.
The way it is designed, while it worked for millions of cars, it asks for 12/6 play over time. A spindle nut with a cone shaped extension could fix that problem.

(59spindle1.jpg)

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dels56

Posted 2022-03-26 1:07 PM (#620490 - in reply to #620385)
Subject: Re: 350+K miles wheel bearings and a question

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Hi, just a comment from an OLD Mopar mechanic. The reason you torque the spindle nut up and then back it off is to provide clearance which allows for expansion as the bearing, etc. warms as you motor along. Take a look at SKF or Timken tech data for the shaft to bore clearance for a “slip” fit, then throw a mic on the spindle to see what you have. As mentioned above, when you are check the “play” at 6/12, a little at the spindle multiplies to a bunch at the top/bottom of the tire. As for the slot in the spindle, take a look at 56D500boy’s thread on “scarebird 57 Mopar bracket on a 56 Chrysler upright spindle”. There are good views of a spindle with the same slot. My 56 and my 71 spindles are also slotted.

Del S

56D500boy

Posted 2022-03-26 9:08 PM (#620493 - in reply to #620490)
Subject: Re: 350+K miles wheel bearings and a question

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dels56 - 2022-03-26 10:07 AMAs for the slot in the spindle, take a look at 56D500boy’s thread on “scarebird 57 Mopar bracket on a 56 Chrysler upright spindle”. There are good views of a spindle with the same slot. My 56 and my 71 spindles are also slotted.

1960fury

Posted 2022-03-26 9:15 PM (#620495 - in reply to #620490)
Subject: Re: 350+K miles wheel bearings and a question

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dels56 - 2022-03-26 1:07 PM

Hi, just a comment from an OLD Mopar mechanic. The reason you torque the spindle nut up and then back it off is to provide clearance which allows for expansion as the bearing, etc. warms as you motor along. Take a look at SKF or Timken tech data for the shaft to bore clearance for a “slip” fit, then throw a mic on the spindle to see what you have. As mentioned above, when you are check the “play” at 6/12, a little at the spindle multiplies to a bunch at the top/bottom of the tire. As for the slot in the spindle, take a look at 56D500boy’s thread on “scarebird 57 Mopar bracket on a 56 Chrysler upright spindle”. There are good views of a spindle with the same slot. My 56 and my 71 spindles are also slotted.

Del S

Hi, I use to heat the hub and spindle before I adjusted the bearings but I found out it makes no difference. There is NOT supposed to be any clearance when cold.

Just because you back the nut off, it does not mean you get play. You can tighten the nut much further than the factory recommended 180 inch-pounds and even back the nut up 2 slots and you will have no clearance but unwanted load on the bearing.
I mentioned already above, that little play at the spindle multiplies at the outer tire

yet, again, it is not supposed to be there.

If you follow the factory procedure with a quality clock-type torque wrench, you will get no clearance and no load or tension, the way it should be, as I posted in my first comment.
Yes, I know that every FL spindle has the slot and for what it is there

yet, it makes no sense it runs so far and thru the full seat of the outer bearing.

1960fury

Posted 2022-03-27 7:16 PM (#620515 - in reply to #620495)
Subject: Re: 350+K miles wheel bearings and a question

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Ok, pulled the hub on one side again and checked for wear. I couldn't measure any wear with a worn out slide ruler but the inner OE bearing slides over the spindle very easily with no resitance at all, but a NOS German quality *** (Kugelfischer) bearing slid over with noticeable resistance. Tried the same with a Chinese bearing and it gave the biggest resistance to the point it was stuck on the spindle temporarely, however only before it reached the seat of the bearing near the shoulder of the spindle.
At the seat, even the new bearings slid back and force without with no resistance, indicating some clearance, as expected.

On the outer bearing I could insert a .002 feeler gauge (picture one) at the 12 and 6 O clock position, but NOT at the 3/9 postion, unfortunately proving my "theory" (what else could have provided the play?).

I could take the play out with a wedge inserted in the slot, but it would be the wrong side of the spindle. I'm tempted to glue some .002 thick metal piece to the outer bearing cone seat and install it so it sits at 6 O clock. Should I?

While the new inner bearings had a tighter fit, I do not think replacing the OE one would make a big difference, at least not for a long time, as it is the outer section of the spindle that is basically the problem. So I think I will reasemble everyting with the OE bearings again and save the new ones either for new spindles, or another solution (Wiz?).

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Edited by 1960fury 2022-03-27 8:15 PM