Viewing a thread - 57 Dodge Convertible BAT

Posted 2022-06-09 7:02 PM (#622027 - in reply to #622026)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Convertible BAT

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Um, this car did have a cloth/vinyl interior as originally built.

Mike McCandless

Posted 2022-06-09 8:15 PM (#622030 - in reply to #621994)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Convertible BAT

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I applaud the seller for going no reserve. I've sold a few cars on BAT no reserve and have had good results.

Darryl T

Posted 2022-06-10 12:48 PM (#622050 - in reply to #622015)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Convertible BAT

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ronbo97 - 2022-06-09 12:54 PM

My comment on BaT:

I sure-as-hell hope that the new owner swaps out the gas cap for a vented one, as it’s supposed to be. Otherwise, fuel starvation and possibly a crushed tank will be in your future.

Ron

The car had a correct vented cap when I sold it, but now I understand the current owner changed it, and will correct that soon. Good catch, Ron.

Mike McCandless

Posted 2022-06-12 6:56 PM (#622087 - in reply to #621994)
Subject: RE: 57 Dodge Convertible BAT

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Any guesses on what it goes for?

Posted 2022-06-12 9:20 PM (#622092 - in reply to #621994)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Convertible BAT

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I agree Mike. I hate reserve auctions. Just a big waste of time. Most people then relist after the reserve isn't met, but the interest is gone and it sells for less than before.
My guess is it'll sell for $45-$55K.

hemiviper588

Posted 2022-06-13 8:51 AM (#622104 - in reply to #622092)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Convertible BAT

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Is it a real Super D 500?

Posted 2022-06-13 10:39 AM (#622107 - in reply to #622104)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Convertible BAT

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hemiviper588 - 2022-06-13 5:51 AM
Is it a real Super D 500?

I believe that a 57 Super D500 would have 2 x 4 bbls. This one, at best, left the factory as a D500 (single 4 bbl on a 325 double rocker). Only the IBM card would know/show the truth.

CaprockClassics

Posted 2022-06-13 1:49 PM (#622114 - in reply to #621994)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Convertible BAT

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Correct, the Super D-500 would have the Offenhauser dual 4 barrel intake and the 1957 Fury style hang down air cleaners (except painted black). Also it should be noted that the 1957 engines are hydraulic lifters, they just re-used the 1956 Solid Lifter valve covers out of simplicity sake.

Side note, as referenced in this thread: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=67748 Greg says that the latest engine he knows of is #19,478 which had a car build date of 0903, so does that mean that all 1957 KD500 cars were built in the fall of 1956 since I assume that it 09/03/56? In that case this car would fall outside the norm...

I never got clarification as to why BaT claims the engine is a "replacement" 325 Hemi. But there's no mention of that anywhere in the car's history or in Daryl's many comments on the car.

~Peter

Edited by CaprockClassics 2022-06-13 1:52 PM

Posted 2022-06-13 2:02 PM (#622115 - in reply to #622114)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Convertible BAT

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The original motor was a poly.

Posted 2022-06-13 4:40 PM (#622119 - in reply to #622115)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Convertible BAT

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Finsinthemirror - 2022-06-13 11:02 AM
The original motor was a poly.

Then it is a counterfeit, er.."TRIBUTE" D500. Not real. = does not deserve really big bucks (in my opinion).

Still, a nice, albeit, fake, car. :P

Edited by 56D500boy 2022-06-13 7:46 PM

Posted 2022-06-13 5:42 PM (#622120 - in reply to #622119)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Convertible BAT

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Neil was a big help with both cars. The original poly 4 bbl engine was toast and incomplete from being taken apart years earlier. I would have installed the d500 drivetrain also.. that's what I bought it for.

Posted 2022-06-13 8:02 PM (#622123 - in reply to #622114)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Convertible BAT

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CaprockClassics - 2022-06-13 10:49 AM
Side note, as referenced in this thread: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=67748 Greg says that the latest engine he knows of is #19,478 which had a car build date of 0903, so does that mean that all 1957 KD500 cars were built in the fall of 1956 since I assume that it 09/03/56? In that case this car would fall outside the norm....

The car in question was built on or about Feb.1, 1957, i.e. 0201. The car with engine no. 19478 and a build date of 0903 would be Sept. 3, 1957. The 1957 Dodges didn't start being released until late Oct. 1956 so I strongly doubt 0903 = early Sept. 1956. Pretty sure that they were still building the last 1956 Dodges in late Aug/early Sept. 1956.

CaprockClassics

Posted 2022-06-14 9:57 AM (#622128 - in reply to #621994)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Convertible BAT

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Very interesting to learn, considering that you'd think they'd be gearing up for the new Big Block D500 by Sept of 57, instead of still producing the old models.

~Peter

Posted 2022-06-14 12:50 PM (#622133 - in reply to #622128)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Convertible BAT

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CaprockClassics - 2022-06-14 6:57 AM
Very interesting to learn, considering that you'd think they'd be gearing up for the new Big Block D500 by Sept of 57, instead of still producing the old models.
~Peter

According to my "source" (Jon Robinson's "Standard Catalog or 1950s Chrysler"), the 1958 Dodges were introduced on Nov. 1, 1957.

I suspect that the change over from 1957 to 1958 tooling, etc. began in the latter part of Sept. 1957 and into Oct. 1957, allowing time for the last 1957s to be built in early(ish) Sept 57 and the first 58's in the latter half of Oct. 57.

(But that is just a semi-informed guess).

As to when the first 361 1958 D500 engines were made, it would probably be about 2 weeks or so after the blocks were cast. I have zero data on any of the 58 engine casting dates, particularly nothing for the 361s. The casting dates on the 56 515 D500 and 57 325 D500 engines is on the top of the block near between where the left head attaches and the lifter gallery. Not sure it that was true for the 361.

Knowing the casting date of the engine and the production date of the car makes it possible to determine whether a car, e.g. a "D500", is not real, e.g. that the engine casting date is after the car's production date is obviously a big red flag (if you care).

Edited by 56D500boy 2022-06-14 12:56 PM

(D500_8256_CastingDate06_11FromDaveN_1.jpg)

Attachments
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D500_8256_CastingDate06_11FromDaveN_1.jpg (161KB - 52 downloads)

CaprockClassics

Posted 2022-06-14 4:42 PM (#622137 - in reply to #621994)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Convertible BAT

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Thanks Dave, continuing my education as always!

Convertible in question sold for $75,000

Posted 2022-06-14 6:57 PM (#622138 - in reply to #621994)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Convertible BAT

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Sold for $75K. My guess was quite a ways off.

Posted 2022-06-14 8:15 PM (#622141 - in reply to #622137)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Convertible BAT

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CaprockClassics - 2022-06-14 1:42 PM
Thanks Dave, continuing my education as always!
Convertible in question sold for $75,000

Peter: I just like to share information that I happen to have (either purchased or "stolen" off the internet (after proving it to be true).

As for the new owner paying $75K for a D500 clone, apparently ignorance (of the truth) is bliss.

Provenance Provenance Provenance

Edited by 56D500boy 2022-06-14 8:16 PM

Posted 2022-06-14 8:29 PM (#622142 - in reply to #622141)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Convertible BAT

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I think you're being a little harsh using the word "clone" here.. the dodge cars weren't like the d501, Adventurer, Fury, or 300 cars. The d500 ONLY designates an engine, that's it. It isn't a special trim level with body/paint/trim exclusive mods, complete drivetrain upgrade, HD suspension, HD brakes.. Just my opinion though.

ronbo97

Posted 2022-06-14 9:24 PM (#622143 - in reply to #622142)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Convertible BAT

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I think the most important thing about this car is transparency. They were honest in stating that the hemi is a transplant. I'm just hoping that after the car changes hands a few times, it doesn't end up at an auction or dealership advertised as 'one of the few Coronet convertibles that was sold with the D500 option'.

Ron

Posted 2022-06-14 9:48 PM (#622144 - in reply to #622143)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Convertible BAT

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ronbo97 - 2022-06-14 6:24 PM

I disagree about the "transparency" in the original advert. They did not say that the 325 hemi was not there when the car left the factory. What they said was "the car is equipped with a replacement 325ci Hemi V8".

"Replacement" to me suggests that the car had a 325 hemi when it left the factory but something happened to the original engine and it was replaced with another 325 hemi. Changing out a 325 poly for a 325 hemi is NOT "Replacement".

I believe that your prediction will come true. We have seen that before and we will see it again.

Provenance Provenance Provenance

Finsinthemirror - 2022-06-14 5:29 PM
I think you're being a little harsh using the word "clone" here.. the dodge cars weren't like the d501, Adventurer, Fury, or 300 cars. The d500 ONLY designates an engine, that's it. It isn't a special trim level with body/paint/trim exclusive mods, complete drivetrain upgrade, HD suspension, HD brakes.. Just my opinion though.

I will stick with and defend the term "clone" here because if the car did not leave the factory with a 325 hemi and the D500 badges attached, it is a clone. "Fake" is a harsher word but it probably applies.

I don't know enough about 57 D500s but if 56 D500s can be used as a comparison, they (the 56 D500s) all (99%) had the engine and at least upgraded brakes, i.e. larger diameter and wider drums. A 325 poly would have smaller brakes than a 325 hemi package. I will check the 55-58 Parts Catalog so see if it can yield some evidence.

Edited by 56D500boy 2022-06-14 11:09 PM

Posted 2022-06-14 11:01 PM (#622145 - in reply to #622142)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Convertible BAT

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Finsinthemirror - 2022-06-14 5:29 PM

I think you're being a little harsh using the word "clone" here.. the dodge cars weren't like the d501, Adventurer, Fury, or 300 cars. The d500 ONLY designates an engine, that's it. It isn't a special trim level with body/paint/trim exclusive mods, complete drivetrain upgrade, HD suspension, HD brakes.. Just my opinion though.

Similarly, a '70 Cuda that originally came with a 318 auto, is just an engine, trans & T-bars away from a 426 hemi cuda. But I'm pretty sure people would want to know about that swap, regardless. They're just numbers, but there's a lot of money riding on those numbers and it really is criminal to defraud the buyer. If the buyer finds out that it's just a D500 clone, and bid as if it wasn't, the seller may have to pay all his fees and trouble to make up for the lack of a proper description.

Posted 2022-06-14 11:03 PM (#622146 - in reply to #622144)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Convertible BAT

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I had this discussion with Neil when gathering parts for this car after I found it initially and I'm comfortable in saying the d500 designation applied only to the motor in 57. Call it what you will but for me since you can put hemi heads on the poly it's just not that big of a deal (I know it's a little more involved than that but not much). I can tell you unequivocally the original car this particular drivetrain came from was a complete, original, unmolested parts car which had NO HD trans, no HD brakes, and no HD suspension, all standard stuff found in ANY CRL which Neil confirmed as he helped me with information and in my parts search. I do agree that it should not be misrepresented but lets not kid ourselves and pretend the d500 motor is that big of a deal like the other cars I mentioned, it isn't. I acknowledge this just my opinion but it's a fact that the d500 equipped cars aren't special units like the Fury, Adventurer, d501, and chrysler 300 letter cars..

Posted 2022-06-14 11:14 PM (#622147 - in reply to #622145)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Convertible BAT

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Powerflite - 2022-06-14 8:01 PM

Finsinthemirror - 2022-06-14 5:29 PM

I think you're being a little harsh using the word "clone" here.. the dodge cars weren't like the d501, Adventurer, Fury, or 300 cars. The d500 ONLY designates an engine, that's it. It isn't a special trim level with body/paint/trim exclusive mods, complete drivetrain upgrade, HD suspension, HD brakes.. Just my opinion though.

I never said nor advocated for hiding anything and I can say when I sold it that I certainly never misrepresented it.. Given what cudas go for that isn't an apples to apples comparison in my opinion. The power difference between the poly and hemi in the 57 D500 cars is what 40 hp and doesn't make a completely different breed of animal. To me in this case it's not much different than adding power steering to a car that didn't have it. We aren't talking about entire suspensions, brakes, and drivetrains with 100+ power variables like a highly revered 426 hemi. This is how I see it.. that said I reiterate that it should not be misrepresented.

Posted 2022-06-15 11:10 AM (#622153 - in reply to #622147)
Subject: Re: 57 Dodge Convertible BAT

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.
I had forgotten about the D500 body codes. The car in question has a body code of 2143 (stamped on the cowl data tag) which is a normal Coronet V8 convertible. A real D500 Coronet convertible, produced late in the model year, would have had a body code of 2543.