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Location: The Mile High City | I searched a few old threads for this car. I thought it might be a Mopar Mel creation. It's for sale in New Jersey now. $99,500 Current listing https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/plymouth/belvedere/2585233.html
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Expert
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Location: Alaska | If it is an original 350 engine, why does it have 6 bolt valve covers? It is a beautiful car but not original with all the Fury trim. |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: Lower Mainland BC | 58coupe - 2022-06-25 8:56 AM
If it is an original 350 engine, why does it have 6 bolt valve covers? It is a beautiful car but not original with all the Fury trim.
Because it is either a 440 or has 440 heads?
Forget that, what about the exhaust manifolds? Pretty sure that they are not 1958 OE. (and of course, the alternator....)
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Location: Finland | Very clean and fresh as far as one can see. It is clear that 100% original has not been the goal and one should respect that. |
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Location: Lubbock, TX | The problem is that he shows an original invoice that implies that this car is a factory triple black 350 dual quad car, but then they compromise the integrity of the restoration by using the wrong engine and engine parts. If it were restored to day one condition with the numbers matching engine I'd agree that it's likely worth the $100k due to the documentation.
As for the supposedly factory installed Fury trim on a convertible, I've seen zero evidence that was ever done or even possible.
-Peter |
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Location: Alaska | The exh. manifolds appear to be HP from the late 60s. The heads could be later 383 or 440 heads on the original block or it could be a completely different engine. It is still a beautiful car but not original so should not be displayed as such. I also agree that is a lot of money to ask for a non original car. |
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Location: The Mile High City | I don't think I have ever seen a suggested retail price label or "window sticker" for another 1958 Chrysler Coroporation product. Does anyone else have one? I thought those didn't come around until 1959.
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Location: Branson, MO | I have to wonder about the legitimacy of this as well. The sticker above appears to be legit but dad was a DeSoto-Plymouth dealer in Michigan but he never received a car before the 1959 models with a window sticker.
Dick Green was a huge dealer in Detroit and maybe this sticker was a preliminary version. Notice there is not a "DESTINATION CHARGE" yet it does show that CASSINS TRANSPORT was the carrier. |
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Location: Lubbock, TX | Best I can research, the only gear ratios available in 1958 for Plymouth were 3.23 and 3.73. With the 3.23 being standard on Torqueflite cars. The only 3.54 differential would have been in the 1958 Chrysler.
Also, if this were a special order car, which it would almost certainly have to be, why wouldn't that invoice show the buyer's info? It wasn't like this was a car that was built and then just put out for sale as a "Fury" Convertible.
Furthermore, the Serial # in the top right corner of the Price Sheet is for an Evansville plant, yet it shows an Assembly Point of Detroit. That's a 457mile drive, did they transport the unfinished Belvedere Convertible up to Detroit to have the Fury Trim and engine installed? What's up with that?
~Peter |
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Location: New Jersey | Those are definitely not 350 heads with those 6 bolt valve covers. The hole for the ground wire on the corner of the cylinder head did not appear on "B" engines until 1959. Probably a 383 that someone added a 2x4 setup on. |
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Location: Alaska | My 58 Plymouth came originally with a 318 and manual 3 speed and it has 3.54 rear gears but don't know for sure if they are original. |
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Location: Alaska | Has anyone ever heard of or seen the "Fury L option package" If this is referring to the gold trim why does the car not have the chrome trim on the inside which is part of the Fury trim? I probably shouldn't suggest this but could the suggested price sheet be a fake? This is not unheard of in the collector car world. |
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Location: Lubbock, TX | Don't know where the L reference comes from, but I can't find it's order code(582) as referenced on that invoice.
If I were forced lay money on it, I'd say the sheet is a fake that was then aged artificially to lend authenticity to the car.
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Location: Connecticut | Even though I'm questioning a lot of things on this invoice sheet: - No date
- 'Belvedere' misspelled as 'Belevedere'
- Evansville serial number, but final destination is Detroit
I'm going to say that it's legit. - According to my factory documentation, 3.54 was available.
- There is mention of an L-series Fury package in the factory documentation, although I haven't found documention yet that it could be ordered on a Belvedere.
- Those stains on the sheet look to have only come with natural aging of the paper.
- The type face and spacing is from a vintage typewriter.
- Car could have been ordered in Detroit, but due to manufacturing backlog or other reason at the Detroit plant, it ended up being built in Evansville, then shipped back to Detroit at no charge.
- Someone would have to go to great lengths to get the correct codes for the options to produce a forgery.
IMHO, the car came with a 350, but it was removed many years ago for what ever reason. A different B-block was installed when the refurbishment (not restoration) of the car occurred. Ron |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: Lower Mainland BC | ronbo97 - 2022-06-27 10:00 AM
There is mention of an L-series Fury package in the factory documentation, although I haven't found documention yet that it could be ordered on a Belvedere.
The 1958 Plymouth brochure suggests that the Golden Commando 350 with 2 x 4 bbls could be order on any Plymouth, i.e. "Optional at extra cost in all models".
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Posts: 2002
Location: Branson, MO | I don't see anything about the Fuel Injection 350 that was also available for a short time. It was so bad that Chrysler offered to replace the fuel injection system with the
two four barrel set up at no cost to the buyer. Sort of a recall I presume. I don't know if anything different took place with fuel injection units in dealer stock but my guess
is that those would be changed out before they were sold out of inventory. |
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Location: Connecticut | 56D500boy - 2022-06-27 1:34 PM The 1958 Plymouth brochure suggests that the Golden Commando 350 with 2 x 4 bbls could be order on any Plymouth, i.e. "Optional at extra cost in all models". True, of course. But on the invoice sheet there is a separate line item for "FURY L OPTION PACKAGE", in addition to the engine itself. That's what I was referring to.
Ron |
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Location: The Mile High City | I'm nearly certain this car is merely a fantasy creation of Mopar Mel. The staining and ageing on the "window sticker" could be faked with coffee grounds; the entire make up of the document could be "faked" by computer recreation of a 1959 window sticker. The header says it is from the Chrysler Corporation - very hard to believe it was a preview to one dealer. The engine is clearly not correct nor is the swivel seat. It is simply beyond credulity that a Belvedere convertible would ever be badged and outfitted as a Fury by the factory as an "option" - although one could be equipped with a Futy V-800 engine. The IBM card would tell the truth. In sum, any claim that this car came like this from the factory is equivalent to horse feathers. Let the buyer beware!
Edited by Lancer Mike 2022-06-28 12:40 AM
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Location: CA | Actually just for correctness sake the "V800" engine could not have been in this convertible car nor any other 1958 plymouth other than the Fury. The V800 is a reference to the poly 318 "Dual Fury" motor which was the standard engine in the Fury and only available in the Fury. The optional motor for 1958 was the golden commando B series 350 which could be had in any 1958 Plymouth car. |
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Location: Lower Mainland BC | .
Not sure what "L" means but if it is like "hockey stick" then it might be the anodized trim?
"The Anodized aluminum "Sport Tone" moldings and inserts that marked the Fury were optional on Belvederes and even Sport Suburbans. The Belvedere convertible came only with V-8 power."
REFERENCE: http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/cgi-bin/pub9990262549620.cgi?categor...
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Location: CA | Couldn't chrysler historical put this built car to bed? The factory would not put Fury scripts on a Belvedere.. I don't believe it at all. Everything it has is literally bolt on, obviously the front seat isn't even out of a 1958 car and the engine looks like an RB, I think I see the RB stamping plateau there.. |
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Location: So. Cal | Yep, an IBM card would put it to rest. Until you get that from the seller, you can safely assume that it isn't valid, and bid accordingly...or not. |
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Posts: 2002
Location: Branson, MO | I believe the sport tone anodized aluminum trim was gold on the Fury only.
It was silver on all other models when ordered as an option. |
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Location: CA | The grille, lower grille, center v connector piece, side trim inserts, Fury nameplates, wheelcovers, gold tail light bezels, complete interior, extra dome lamp, complete suspension system, motor, and color scheme. Although I do think Buckskin Beige was available as a color on other models everything else including the exclusive interior color were not. |
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Location: Connecticut | Finsinthemirror - 2022-06-28 6:42 PM The grille, lower grille, center v connector piece, side trim inserts, Fury nameplates, wheelcovers, gold tail light bezels, complete interior, extra dome lamp, complete suspension system, motor, and color scheme. Although I do think Buckskin Beige was available as a color on other models everything else including the exclusive interior color were not. Buckskin Beige was only available for Fury. Another point: the Fury badges were definitely added later. The car is a Belvedere, but may have stiffer suspension, etc., via the FURY L OPTION PACKAGE. Ron |
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Location: CA | ronbo97 - 2022-06-28 5:39 PM
Finsinthemirror - 2022-06-28 6:42 PM The grille, lower grille, center v connector piece, side trim inserts, Fury nameplates, wheelcovers, gold tail light bezels, complete interior, extra dome lamp, complete suspension system, motor, and color scheme. Although I do think Buckskin Beige was available as a color on other models everything else including the exclusive interior color were not. Buckskin Beige was only available for Fury. Another point: the Fury badges were definitely added later. The car is a Belvedere, but may have stiffer suspension, etc., via the FURY L OPTION PACKAGE. Ron
Thanks Ron, yeah I couldn't recall. I thought so but I also thought I had seen an old photo of a couple of wagons that looked like they were Buckskin Beige.. Iceberg White is pretty different but it was an old picture. |
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Location: CA | Didn't the HD suspension accompany the Golden Commando? I think it did.. |
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Location: Lubbock, TX | http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=37771
Stumbled across a VERY old thread discussing this exact car. Sounds like even back then opinions were mixed as to it's authenticity.
And then again discussed in 2015: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=59546&...
In case you don't want to read all those posts here's the major points:
The word "Manufacturers" should be "Manufacturer's"
"Cassins" transport is actually spelled "Cassen's"
Black paint was not a $100 option, and was simply a color choice for a Belvedere Convertible
"Belevedere" misspelled
Option Code "582", which they say is for the Fury L Package, is actually the code for the 60amp dry charge battery. I can't tell you how hard that was to track down... I suspect they figured no one would have a list of all the codes.
No Production Date or Invoice Date
Someone shared that the "This invoice required by federal law" didn't go into effect until Sept of 1958, MONTHS after this car was build in late spring of 1958.
Note that even that correspondence with Galen Govier is TO Galen, not FROM Galen.
~Peter
Edited by CaprockClassics 2022-06-28 10:03 PM
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Location: Lubbock, TX | Finsinthemirror - 2022-06-28 8:12 PM
Didn't the HD suspension accompany the Golden Commando? I think it did..
Option Codes 452 or 455 would be the correct ones. But I suspect the Convertibles may already get the HD springs. I know with Dodge in 1957 the D500 and Convertible/Station Wagon springs are identical.
Sources: http://www.forwardlook.net/19571958Plymouth/58PlymouthOrderSheets.h...
Edited by CaprockClassics 2022-06-28 10:10 PM
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Location: CA | Well the interior is a hodge podge and re-done nicely. Im not even going to mention the swivel seat but the door panels if they were Fury are missing the stainless trim and had a molded in armrest which only the Fury had in the Plymouth line. Also added to the door panels are 1957 Fury scripts so to me someone has gone to great lengths to make this thing resemble a Fury - which it ain't. Another nagging question for me is if this car is so special as suggested, where are all the photos of it pre-restoration. I'd like to see what this looked like beforehand but I think I already know. |
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Location: So. Cal | Thanks for the corrections. I'll go re-type that up and apply the coffee stains again.  |
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Location: The Mile High City | Are our radios actually transistor radios? I thought that was the small circutry radios that start playing the second you turn on the power. Ours are vacuum tube radios - nobody would have called them transistor radios back then, would they? Or they would have used the MagicTone or MusicMaster or VelveTone marketing hoohaa. But at $73, maybe this one actually got a transistor radio! Peter - nice work finding the old threads! I think there might be more. The Lone Wolf or No Club license plate in front stuck out right away. I think it has had that for years!
Edited by Lancer Mike 2022-06-29 12:44 AM
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Location: New Jersey | All 57-59 Plymouth radios only feature a power transistor. They all still use vacuum tubes. I believe Plymouth's first solid state/all transistor radio appeared in 1960. |
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Location: Idaho - where men are men and spuds are spuds | Well, you guys sure beat the crap out of this one! While it's down on the ground, why don't you kick it some more?  |
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Location: Lower Mainland BC | Mope R. Geezer - 2022-06-29 11:12 AM
Well, you guys sure beat the crap out of this one! While it's down on the ground, why don't you kick it some more?
https://giphy.com/gifs/photobucket-demi-moore-themishkin-hS2tguWYRSt... |
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Location: So. Cal | What do you mean? We barely touched it.
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Location: The Mile High City | :laugh: who took a crap on the dash? that was low. |
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Location: CA | A forwardlook car discussion forum is the wrong forum to discuss a forwardlook car?? dafuq? |
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Location: Lubbock, TX | Finsinthemirror - 2022-06-29 6:19 PM
A forwardlook car discussion forum is the wrong forum to discuss a forwardlook car?? dafuq?
I thought we were being rather civil and helping each other to learn more about what was actually possible in 1958. I guess someone has to call the cops on the party. Maybe we were playing the music too loud.
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Location: The Mile High City | I love it!!! this is how the forums used to be! A fun place. |
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Location: The Mile High City | I think I was the one who took a s**t on the dashboard. sorry folks! |
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Location: The Mile High City | In a more productive light: we all love forward look cars. We take that for granted. We love this Plymouth convertible. The rub comes in when someone advertises it as an original gem. Then the good folks here kick that to f**k and back. At the end of the day, I can appreciate every old car - especially Forward Lookers - and there's a perception that we are tearing down, but the criticism is pointed at the advertisement moreso than the delicious hooptie. I recognize that my two beloved convertibles would not pass muster or stand up to any critique of originality or correctness! And Geezer puts a great reality check on all of it.
Edited by Lancer Mike 2022-06-29 9:37 PM
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Location: The Mile High City | Back to this f**king convertible. Doesn't even have the right silver v. WTF???
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Location: Idaho - where men are men and spuds are spuds | Oh, please. I wasn't rying to spoil anyone's fun. I actually think the car is quite ugly primarily because it's black and doesn't have WW tires. So I wouldn't be a prospective buyer - particularly after LM sh!t on the dashboard. DANG! How'd you do that? You must be a contortionist or you broke out the windshield.  |
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Location: The Mile High City | What ever happened to Doc De Soto??? He'd tell you to take your wide whites and shove 'em where the sun don't shine. Gimme a sedan in buzzard puke green with black walls all day long! |
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Location: Finland | I also think that rubber is meant to be black!
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Location: Idaho - where men are men and spuds are spuds | Evidently you don't know that rubber's natural color is white.  |
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Location: South Australia | Hi all, just thought I’d add my 2cents from the other side of the pond. I love these conversations/debates as to a vehicle’s authenticity (when it is advertised as such) as it shows the level and depth of factory customisation available to a purchaser. We also had similar wide availability of options here in Oz for a while (not for F/L cars though), but with manufacturers narrowing their offerings now to sticker and colour differences (generally), it continually staggers me as to what was available at the time. Keep up the lively banter, keep it real (where possible) so we all keep the interest and keep learning about our collective passion. I have a question about the sticker price sheet, is it my suspicions nature or is the word “Chrysler “ at the top a bit too defaced/blurred to be genuine? BTW, how did you crap on the dash?? |
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Location: CA | 59Custom Royal - 2022-07-01 3:51 PM
Hi all, just thought I’d add my 2cents from the other side of the pond. I love these conversations/debates as to a vehicle’s authenticity (when it is advertised as such) as it shows the level and depth of factory customisation available to a purchaser. We also had similar wide availability of options here in Oz for a while (not for F/L cars though), but with manufacturers narrowing their offerings now to sticker and colour differences (generally), it continually staggers me as to what was available at the time. Keep up the lively banter, keep it real (where possible) so we all keep the interest and keep learning about our collective passion. I have a question about the sticker price sheet, is it my suspicions nature or is the word “Chrysler “ at the top a bit too defaced/blurred to be genuine? BTW, how did you crap on the dash??
There isn't any debate, this car is not a factory build as represented. There is no reason to believe that the factory put Fury nameplates on a Belvedere when no such car existed and if that's the claim, the burden of proof is on the owner. For me what's been shown is not good enough to substantiate the claim. |
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1958 Plymouth Convertible - Hemmings
