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1956 Savoy valve seals
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cdstl
Posted 2022-08-03 9:11 PM (#623378)
Subject: 1956 Savoy valve seals



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I have a bit of an issue with the car smoking some at start up, which eventually clears up after running for a while.  When I pulled number 1 spark plug there was a bit of oil in the plug hole after sitting for a while.  The valve covers don't leak.

Engine number on the front driver side of the block is P29-30566, the boss in front of the passenger head is blank.

 I'm going to change the valve stem seals but it would seem that this motor only has seals on the intake valves.  The kit listed from Chrysler, in the Mopar Parst Catalog only lists seals for the intake valves.  When I Google valve seals all of the venders show just 8 seals in their kits.

A few questions...

1. Can you tell if this motor is a 270 or 277 cid?  Under P29 in the FSM it lists both.

2. Does this(these) motors only have seals on the intake valves?

3. It appears that these would be umbrella seals, has anyone used, or found, a seal that has a "positive lock"?

 

Thanks

 

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Powerflite
Posted 2022-08-03 10:18 PM (#623381 - in reply to #623378)
Subject: Re: 1956 Savoy valve seals



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1. I can't tell from the number, but just look to see where the upper radiator hose goes. If it goes into the water pump in front of the engine, then it is a 270. If the upper radiator hose goes into the intake manifold, then it is a 277.

2. Yes, I believe they only came with seals on the intakes.

3. You can put a positive lock seal on them, but I have heard of problems that it can cause the valves not to get enough oil to keep them lubricated. The hemi & hemi based polys aren't swimming in oil like the newer motors. Though I'm not sure if this applies to the 277. It may have a lot more upper oil flow than a 270, I'm not sure.

However, you shouldn't see oil in the spark plug hole, that comes from the piston. If so, your spark plug isn't sealing and you would have very lousy compression and a very lousy burn efficiency. It sounds like your valve cover is, or was leaking at some point, or else it got there from some other device like the power steering. The smoking at startup can come from oil leaking past the valves while it sits, or it can come from worn rings. Generally, I ignore it because those things aren't really worth dealing with until the motor gets a total rebuild, or a new valve job & cam change (if the bottom end is still strong with little blow by).
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57chizler
Posted 2022-08-05 1:21 PM (#623398 - in reply to #623378)
Subject: RE: 1956 Savoy valve seals



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The parts book shows seals only on the intake valves.



(Seal.PNG)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments Seal.PNG (54KB - 92 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2022-08-05 5:46 PM (#623402 - in reply to #623398)
Subject: RE: 1956 Savoy valve seals



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57chizler - 2022-08-05 10:21 AM
The parts book shows seals only on the intake valves.

It appears that Felpro has the equivalent of the 1558 025 umbrella stem seals.



Edited by 56D500boy 2022-08-05 5:48 PM
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samstrader
Posted 2023-02-09 2:38 PM (#627470 - in reply to #623378)
Subject: Re: 1956 Savoy valve seals


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I have just discovered an issue with an exhaust valve on my 1955 259 Poly head. The number 7 exhaust valve makes a noise almost like valve tapping but not quite and I can feel gas coming out of the valve when I put my hand next to the spring when the engine is running at idle. I have adjustable push rods and I shortened this push rod to zero lash and still have the same noise but with tapping added.. This is the only valve I have that is doing this. Has anyone seen this and do you know what is the cause and what is the fix? I thought I had a burnt valve but now I'm not sure.

Thanks...
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56D500boy
Posted 2023-02-09 4:18 PM (#627471 - in reply to #627470)
Subject: Re: 1956 Savoy valve seals



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Worn valve guide?

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Shep
Posted 2023-02-09 6:07 PM (#627476 - in reply to #627471)
Subject: Re: 1956 Savoy valve seals



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Do a leak down test on that cylinder, or just pressureize it at tdc for that cylinder. If pressure is felt as you note, that valve is not seated.
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Mopar1
Posted 2023-02-09 6:35 PM (#627480 - in reply to #623378)
Subject: RE: 1956 Savoy valve seals



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cdstl - 2022-08-03 8:11 PM

I have a bit of an issue with the car smoking some at start up, which eventually clears up after running for a while.  When I pulled number 1 spark plug there was a bit of oil in the plug hole after sitting for a while.  The valve covers don't leak.

Engine number on the front driver side of the block is P29-30566, the boss in front of the passenger head is blank.

 I'm going to change the valve stem seals but it would seem that this motor only has seals on the intake valves.  The kit listed from Chrysler, in the Mopar Parst Catalog only lists seals for the intake valves.  When I Google valve seals all of the venders show just 8 seals in their kits.

A few questions...

1. Can you tell if this motor is a 270 or 277 cid?  Under P29 in the FSM it lists both.

2. Does this(these) motors only have seals on the intake valves?

3. It appears that these would be umbrella seals, has anyone used, or found, a seal that has a "positive lock"?

 

Thanks

 

If the intake seals the lifter valley it's a 277. If it has an intake and seperate valley cover it is a 270. Hemi heads don't use ex valve seals because of the valve location. Where your engine isn't a hemi I suspect the ex valves would have seals.
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samstrader
Posted 2023-02-10 3:09 PM (#627493 - in reply to #623378)
Subject: Re: 1956 Savoy valve seals


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Dave, how do you copy the statement you want to answer like you have done a lot of times? I can't figure that out.

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wizard
Posted 2023-02-10 3:33 PM (#627494 - in reply to #623378)
Subject: Re: 1956 Savoy valve seals



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I use the key prints creen, open the paint program, paste it in and crop the needed info.
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samstrader
Posted 2023-02-10 5:49 PM (#627495 - in reply to #623378)
Subject: Re: 1956 Savoy valve seals


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Thanks Sven,
Thanks Dave and Dave,
* Worn valve guide?
I think it is the valve guide being worn that is causing the gas bypass and noise, but I had the engine rebuilt just 1000 miles ago and can't imagine it wearing out this fast; unless this is something else the mechanic didn't fix correctly. Very frustrating.

* Do a leak down test on that cylinder, or just pressureize it at tdc for that cylinder. If pressure is felt as you note, that valve is not seated.
I'll do a compression test in a couple of days. But the engine is running real good and when you listen to the exhaust, there is no engine miss or puffing that usually indicates one cylinder doing something wrong. But a compression test is the best test.

How can a worn valve guide be repaired? In the parts manual and service manual, it talks about buying oversized valves (the stem is oversized) and reaming out the valve guides to match the bigger valve stems. I looked for oversized exhaust valves and didn't find any. So I'm wondering if you can bore out the valve guide and install a sleeve so you can get the right size valve guide. Really, I'm just wondering how to fix this.

Thanks,,,

Sam
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Shep
Posted 2023-02-10 8:10 PM (#627497 - in reply to #627495)
Subject: Re: 1956 Savoy valve seals



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Pressurizeing that cylinder is better than a compression test, it gives you time to hear or feel compression escaping. If the guide turns out to have excessive clearance, a replacement bronze guide csn be fitted if the proper size is available. A slight leak at the valve seat area may not be noticeable at speed.
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samstrader
Posted 2023-02-10 11:32 PM (#627501 - in reply to #623378)
Subject: Re: 1956 Savoy valve seals


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Thanks Dave, I can easily pressure up the cylinder with my air compressor and that is easier to do than a compression test so thanks for telling me. I don't hear this too much at running speed but it makes a lot of noise at idle and really bothers me. It also makes a lot of moisture build up on the valve cover area. i was surprised how wet it was when I took the valve cover off twice. The weather is cold here now and that aggravated the situation but there was more water than I expected. I can't tell from anything in my service manual but are the original heads fitted with bronze guides or are the guides just the cast iron head? Also, this is the valve rocker area side of my engine that ran without any oil for about 500 miles. Does the oil that is pumped up to the rockers lubricate the valve stems too. I'm asking this becaue there is so little oil pumped up there and I can't really see how much oil would get on the valve stem. Sorry for so many questions, just trying to understand what I'm getting into now. I hope this is the last issue with my unfortunate rebuild.
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samstrader
Posted 2023-02-13 10:09 PM (#627586 - in reply to #627501)
Subject: Re: 1956 Savoy valve seals


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Thanks Dave, I can easily pressure up the cylinder with my air compressor and that is easier to do than a compression test so thanks for telling me. I don't hear this too much at running speed but it makes a lot of noise at idle and really bothers me. It also makes a lot of moisture build up on the valve cover area. i was surprised how wet it was when I took the valve cover off twice. The weather is cold here now and that aggravated the situation but there was more water than I expected. I can't tell from anything in my service manual but are the original heads fitted with bronze guides or are the guides just the cast iron head? Also, this is the valve rocker area side of my engine that ran without any oil for about 500 miles. Does the oil that is pumped up to the rockers lubricate the valve stems too. I'm asking this becaue there is so little oil pumped up there and I can't really see how much oil would get on the valve stem. Sorry for so many questions, just trying to understand what I'm getting into now. I hope this is the last issue with my unfortunate rebuild.

Update,  I didn't have any leaks when i pressured the cylinder.  So, I watched some videos on valve guide inspection and replacement and saw that a good way to test your valve guides for slack is to try to move the top of the valve stem from side to side with the valve spring still attached and see how much slack you feel.  Good is when there isn't any slack or just very very slight slack.  The valve that is leaking gas up into the rocker area is very loose.  I can move the top of the valve stem at least an eight of an inch.  I don't see how the valve is holding with this much slack in the stem but it is.  So now I know I need new valve guides.  When I had my engine rebuilt, I didn't specifically request new valve guides and I guess I should have done that.  I just wanted the engine rebuilt and expected everything that was wrong with the engine to be fixed.  But that didn't work.  I would be able to specificy what I wanted out of an engine rebuild a lot better now.  

So the next step is to pull the heads and get them rebuilt the right way.  There is one youtube video that shows you how to replace valves stems yourself using a Lisle jig that was from the 1970's.  That was pretty cool.

Thanks for everyone's help.

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dels56
Posted 2023-02-14 2:42 PM (#627605 - in reply to #623378)
Subject: Re: 1956 Savoy valve seals


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If an engine rebuilder can’t determine the valve/guide clearance is excessive, they should not be in business. They couldn’t even grind the vale seat as the tool used would not have been centred. I don’t recall if the guide is replaceable but, good it it can be. I do recall using valves with oversized stems.

Stem seals are used on intake valves as the low pressure created on the intake stroke would pull oil into the cylinder via the stem/guide clearance. Exhaust valve is closed on intake, compression, power strokes. On exhaust the air flow is pushing out. No seal needed.

Make sure the shop that rebuilds the heads can do/will do a 3 angle grind.

Del
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samstrader
Posted 2023-02-14 5:29 PM (#627608 - in reply to #627605)
Subject: Re: 1956 Savoy valve seals


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If an engine rebuilder can’t determine the valve/guide clearance is excessive, they should not be in business. They couldn’t even grind the vale seat as the tool used would not have been centred. I don’t recall if the guide is replaceable but, good it it can be. I do recall using valves with oversized stems.

I totally agree with you Del regarding engine rebuilders and can't understand what happened to my engine job. I tried to find valves with oversized stems on the internet but didn't find any. They are mentioned in the parts catalog and there are/were three oversized sizes. I've seen that valve guides can be bored out enough to install bronze sleeves that solve the valve guide problems. I just don't know if the 1955 poly head has enough metal to bore out the valve guide big enough to be able to install the sleeves. But I'm about to find out and I'll report back on the progress.

I also don't know how this worst valve is seating properly with the valve guide as loose as it is.  

 

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Mopar1
Posted 2023-02-14 5:36 PM (#627609 - in reply to #627605)
Subject: Re: 1956 Savoy valve seals



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dels56 - 2023-02-14 1:42 PM
Stem seals are used on intake valves as the low pressure created on the intake stroke would pull oil into the cylinder via the stem/guide clearance. Exhaust valve is closed on intake, compression, power strokes. On exhaust the air flow is pushing out. No seal needed.
l
On a Hemi the ex valve hangs upside down, oil in the rocker area can't run uphill so no seal is needed. On wedge heads oil can run down the stems on both valves.
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dels56
Posted 2023-02-15 12:24 AM (#627617 - in reply to #623378)
Subject: Re: 1956 Savoy valve seals


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I’m not familiar with the wedge engine but, if you have oil running down the exhaust valve stem, it would only be when the engine is not running. There is no way the engine can pull oil in via the exhaust valve. That’s my opinion and if there is a scientific explanation to prove my theory wrong, I will accept it.

Oil entering the combustion chamber while the engine is shut off will give you a puff of smoke on star up.

The above has nothing to do with a crappy engine job, just my 2 cents worth.

Del
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Powerflite
Posted 2023-02-15 1:20 PM (#627625 - in reply to #623378)
Subject: Re: 1956 Savoy valve seals



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The opening of the exhaust valve creates a pressure wave that exits the port. Once it exits, it does create a short vacuum pulse at the valve. During idle, that duration is longer than during higher rpm. So I think it is possible to draw oil into the exhaust from it, but it should decrease with rpm. But I think you are generally correct, that most of the problem would happen while it sits, creating smoke when you first start it up.
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Mopar1
Posted 2023-02-15 5:50 PM (#627630 - in reply to #627625)
Subject: Re: 1956 Savoy valve seals



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a puff of smoke on start up tells you that you need valve seals, vs a lot of smoking all the time that is bad rings.
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samstrader
Posted 2023-02-19 2:17 AM (#627710 - in reply to #623378)
Subject: Re: 1956 Savoy valve seals


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I'm not really getting smoking while running or at start up or any oil loss that I can tell from this problem. The engine is actually running good which is a little bit surprising. But I can't stand the noise.

I did pull and replace all of the spark plugs and the plugs on the driver side were carboned up some but the plugs on the passenger side were perfect. No carbon at all. The driver side is the side with the bad valve stems.

I'm sure oil is supposed to oil the valve stems some but I don't think very much. One reason for not smoking might be that there just isn't very much oil to the rockers anyway. There would just be a very small amount that would be available to run down the valve stems. I think the stems could feel oily but I don't see how much of a drop of oil could build up on the stem and be available to run down the stem after the engine is turned off. At least this is what think I saw while watching the engine run with the valve cover off for quite a few minutes.

It sure makes sense that the intake valves would suck more oil into the engine and oil leaking past the stems on my intake valves may be what is causing the spark plugs to look bad.

I'll learn a lot more when I pull the head and take that one bad valve out of the hole. I should be able to see what is wrong then.
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samstrader
Posted 2023-03-26 10:31 AM (#628548 - in reply to #623378)
Subject: RE: 1956 Savoy valve seals


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I have my heads in the machine shop to get new valve guides. The good news is they were real bad so I have found a problem that can be fixed and make the engine run a lot better. I hate it when I take something all apart and you can't find anything wrong.

The machinist asked if I could get any new valves with chrome plated valve stems that would fit my engine (259, 1955 poly). Does anyone know if there are newer model valves that would fit this engine? I don't know where to start looking for something like this...

Thanks,,,,
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Powerflite
Posted 2023-03-26 5:01 PM (#628558 - in reply to #623378)
Subject: Re: 1956 Savoy valve seals



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I believe you can put Dodge 315 valves into it, and increase the valve size. Couple that with an increased cam re-grind, and you would enjoy a substantial power increase. You can get the valves from Hot Heads. They also sell the 241 and 270 valves. Best to talk to Hot Heads to find out how compatible these hemi valves are with your poly.

https://hothemiheads.com/dodge/valves_related/valves_stock.html


Edited by Powerflite 2023-03-26 5:06 PM
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samstrader
Posted 2023-03-26 9:56 PM (#628564 - in reply to #623378)
Subject: Re: 1956 Savoy valve seals


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Thanks Nathan... I'll call Hot Heads in the morning. That's a great company. Every time I get something from them, I'm thrilled with the quality.
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