The Forward Look Network
The Forward Look Network
Search | Statistics | User Listing Forums | Chat | eBay | Calendars | Albums | Skins | Language
You are logged in as a guest. ( logon | register )

1957 Plymouth 301cu.in. questions.
Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page]		View previous thread :: View next thread
   Forward Look Technical Discussions -> Engine, Exhaust, Fuel and IgnitionMessage format
 
local2Ed
Posted 2022-09-21 6:16 PM (#624402)
Subject: 1957 Plymouth 301cu.in. questions.


Extreme Veteran

Posts: 580
500252525
I have a 1957 Plymouth Custom Suburban station wagon with what is supposedly a 301cu.in. engine.
The numbers P31-278830 are on the front drivers side, below the head, on the block. Are these numbers correct for a 301cu.in. 2 barrel?

The supposed 301cu.in. in the Plymouth wagon has a PowerFlite transmission.

I would like to put the Plymouth 301 into a 1957 Dodge Sierra that has a 325cu.in. with a TorqueFlite transmission.
I want to use the TorqueFlite behind the Plymouth 301 to put in the 1957 Dodge.
It loos like the engine should mount up in the frame the same but my question what if anything would I have to change to mount the TorqueFlite to the 301 Plymouth engine that has a PowerFlite mounted to it know?

Both engines and transmissions are in their respective cars right now so I'm trying to find out what would need switching over so I know what I have to do before I start to swap them over.

Thanks.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2022-09-21 6:54 PM (#624404 - in reply to #624402)
Subject: RE: 1957 Plymouth 301cu.in. questions.



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9900
500020002000500100100100100
Location: Lower Mainland BC		.
This won't help you as much as you want *BUT* as far as I know, in 1957 there were three Plymouth V8s, the 301 in everything but the 57 Fury and the Plazas and the 318 "V800" in the 57 Fury and the 277 in the Plaza.

The 277 Plaza engine was likely a carry-over from 1956 and was likely a "P29". The other two were in the "P31" family. All three were polys. They all shared the same 4.46" bore spacing. The 301 and 318 shared a 3.91" bore (but different strokes (3.125" and 3.31" respectively).

However, I think the 57 Fury 318 "V800" engine has an "F" in front of the P31 nnnnnn, like this:



REFERENCES:

https://www.allpar.com/threads/catching-up-quickly-plymouth-cars-195...

https://www.lov2xlr8.no/brochures/mopar/57plym/bilder/4.jpg

Willem Weertman's Chrysler Engine book, pg. 156.





Edited by 56D500boy 2022-09-21 8:25 PM




(57FuryBrochureCover.jpg)



(57FuryBrochureSpecs.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments 57FuryBrochureCover.jpg (145KB - 69 downloads)
Attachments 57FuryBrochureSpecs.jpg (237KB - 67 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Powerflite
Posted 2022-09-21 7:57 PM (#624406 - in reply to #624402)
Subject: Re: 1957 Plymouth 301cu.in. questions.



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9650
5000200020005001002525
Location: So. Cal		As long as you keep the proper Torqueflite aluminum adapter, bellhousing & torque converter with the Torqueflite transmission, you can swap any '54-'61 small block V8 based engine from one transmission to another. This also applies to '52-'53 Dodge and DeSoto, but not the Chrysler, due to their use of an extended bell housing on the block.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
ronbo97
Posted 2022-09-21 8:01 PM (#624407 - in reply to #624402)
Subject: RE: 1957 Plymouth 301cu.in. questions.


Expert

Posts: 4036
2000200025
Location: Connecticut

Why do you want to do this swap ? You won't be gaining HP and it seems like a lot of work for no appreciable gain.

Roon

Top of the page Bottom of the page
local2Ed
Posted 2022-09-22 7:44 AM (#624430 - in reply to #624407)
Subject: RE: 1957 Plymouth 301cu.in. questions.


Extreme Veteran

Posts: 580
500252525
ronbo97 - 2022-09-21 8:01 PM

Why do you want to do this swap ? You won't be gaining HP and it seems like a lot of work for no appreciable gain.

Roon



The 325 in the Dodge could use a rebuild and if I install the 301 in it I can continue to use the Dodge and rebuild the 325 at my leisure.

I know what your saying, I'm not doing it to gain anything and swapping engine and transmissions that are made to interchange is about as simple and quick as it gets.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
local2Ed
Posted 2022-09-22 7:58 AM (#624431 - in reply to #624406)
Subject: Re: 1957 Plymouth 301cu.in. questions.


Extreme Veteran

Posts: 580
500252525
Powerflite - 2022-09-21 7:57 PM

As long as you keep the proper Torqueflite aluminum adapter, bellhousing & torque converter with the Torqueflite transmission, you can swap any '54-'61 small block V8 based engine from one transmission to another. This also applies to '52-'53 Dodge and DeSoto, but not the Chrysler, due to their use of an extended bell housing on the block.


That's what I thought, but wanted to get some input in case there was anything I couldn't determine by looking at them side by side.

Will the Y pipe on the exhaust interchange?

The Dodge has a good Y pipe and the Plymouth has two stubs.
I'll have to look at the placements of the manifold exits closely next time I'm out there.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2022-09-22 11:43 AM (#624436 - in reply to #624402)
Subject: RE: 1957 Plymouth 301cu.in. questions.



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9900
500020002000500100100100100
Location: Lower Mainland BC		.
Zeke: I didn't want to chime in on the transmission swap but now that you are thinking about it more, I have to say some words of caution:

While a A-466 cast-iron Torqueflite will likely bolt up the 301 Powerflite bell-housing and maybe even use the same torque converter, that is not the end of it. Based on my experience swapping a A-466 into my 56 Dodge,
there are other issues that you will need to deal with.

There are five main components to this swap:

1. The Transmission (and torque converter)
2. The Cross-Member (the A-466 is longer and the mounting point is further back, potentially requiring cross member mods)
3. The Shifter (the 5 button Torqueflite shifter is seriously different than the 4 button Powerflite shifter)
4. The Driveshaft (will need to be shortened by 3.5" or so)
5. The associated cables and levers

I have detailed all these issues in this thread:

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=73638&...

Based on my experience ($$$), I would consider just swapping the engines but leaving the transmission and driveshaft alone.

As for the 57 Plymouth V8 engines, I was a bit wrong with what I posted yesterday. There were actually 4, not 3:

The base 277 (actually 276.1) 2 bbl (Probably stamped P29)
The option 2 bbl "301" (actually 299.6)
The power pack 4 bbl "301"
The 317.6 cu in "318", 2 x 4bbl engine for the Fury (not sure if this was also the "V-800" or not)

Good luck but read my transmission swap hints before you decide for sure.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
Powerflite
Posted 2022-09-22 11:47 AM (#624437 - in reply to #624402)
Subject: Re: 1957 Plymouth 301cu.in. questions.



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9650
5000200020005001002525
Location: So. Cal		No exhaust is likely to interchange. Dump the y-pipe and go with dual exhaust. That's the best power improvement you can make to your car without tearing the engine apart. The stock y-pipe on my '70 Satellite was forcing the whole engine through a narrow slot due to poor manufacturing at the junction. Putting in dual exhaust made it feel like a completely different car.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
local2Ed
Posted 2022-09-22 5:57 PM (#624448 - in reply to #624436)
Subject: RE: 1957 Plymouth 301cu.in. questions.


Extreme Veteran

Posts: 580
500252525
56D500boy - 2022-09-22 11:43 AM

.


Based on my experience ($$$), I would consider just swapping the engines but leaving the transmission and driveshaft alone.



:)


That's all I intend to do but I probably didn't make that clear in my first post. The TorqueFlite transmission in the 1957 Dodge will stay, the 325 cu.in. will be replaced with the 301cu.in.

Thanks for the reply's.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
local2Ed
Posted 2022-09-22 6:08 PM (#624449 - in reply to #624437)
Subject: Re: 1957 Plymouth 301cu.in. questions.


Extreme Veteran

Posts: 580
500252525
Powerflite - 2022-09-22 11:47 AM

No exhaust is likely to interchange. Dump the y-pipe and go with dual exhaust. That's the best power improvement you can make to your car without tearing the engine apart. The stock y-pipe on my '70 Satellite was forcing the whole engine through a narrow slot due to poor manufacturing at the junction. Putting in dual exhaust made it feel like a completely different car.


I'm not looking to gain any performance on this swap just looking for a temporary engine swap until I get around to rebuilding the 325 from the Dodge.
I agree dual exhaust would be an improvement, and would be the way to go on the 301 but I don't want to buy the exhaust to fit the 301 and find out It wont bolt up when the 325 gets put back in.

Anyway, I'll look at the exhaust exits on both engines manifolds and determine if the pipes look like they'll line up.

Thanks for the reply's.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
HemiSportFury
Posted 2022-09-24 7:59 PM (#624506 - in reply to #624402)
Subject: Re: 1957 Plymouth 301cu.in. questions.


Member

Posts: 38
25
Location: SW Colorado		As an aside to the comment above about the 301 not being available in the Plaza, when I was in high school back in 1964-65 I had a 57 Plaza two door with the 301 four barrel and a power flight. That was decades before I heard of numbers matching, etc. but I am certain that it was a 301 from checking the engine number with a Motors Manual, and there no indication that the engine had been swapped at any point. That car ran pretty good and I loved it but sold it when I joined the Navy shortly after I graduated from high school.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
58coupe
Posted 2022-09-25 10:32 AM (#624512 - in reply to #624402)
Subject: Re: 1957 Plymouth 301cu.in. questions.



Expert

Posts: 1740
100050010010025
Location: Alaska		I am wondering if they had some left over 56 277s and used them in early production 57s but only in the cheaper Plazas.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2022-09-29 1:18 PM (#624574 - in reply to #624512)
Subject: Re: 1957 Plymouth 301cu.in. questions.



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9900
500020002000500100100100100
Location: Lower Mainland BC
58coupe - 2022-09-25 7:32 AM
I am wondering if they had some left over 56 277s and used them in early production 57s but only in the cheaper Plazas.


That would be my guess too. However, the 1957 277s were apparently slightly different than the 56 277s. In 1957 the 277 developed 197 hp, an additional 10 hp over 1956 277s thanks to a different camshaft and carburetor. The 1957 277 was available only in the Plaza. It was not designated a "P29" engine as I thought earlier. Like the 301s, the 1957 277 was also designated a "P31" (the flat head six was a P30 in 1957). So finding a "P31-nnnnn" stamping on a 1957 Plymouth poly engine block just below the front of left head did NOT guarantee it being a 301.

Apparently the 301 was the standard V-8 in Belvederes and Savoys and optional in the Plaza. As such, it was had a 2 bbl carb that put out 215 hp in standard form. However, for an additional $36.20 you could apparently add a "Fury" 301 Quad package consisting of a four-barrel carburetor, special distributor, and dual exhausts, raising horsepower to 235 at 4400 rpm. Adding use of the term "Fury" was apparently confusing even back in the day since the 4 bbl Fury 301 V-8 could be had in all car lines except the Fury itself, which came with the 2 x 4 bbl V-800 290 hp 318 as its only powerplant.

I think it was the 2 x 4 bbl equipped 318 which I was stamped FP31-nnnnn on the block in the photo I posted above.

REFERENCES:

1. https://www.allpar.com/threads/plymouth-cars-of-1957-three-years-ahe...
2. http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=49450&...



Edited by 56D500boy 2022-09-29 1:21 PM




(Allpars1957PlymouthEngineSpecChart.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments Allpars1957PlymouthEngineSpecChart.jpg (80KB - 66 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Powerflite
Posted 2022-09-29 4:37 PM (#624582 - in reply to #624402)
Subject: Re: 1957 Plymouth 301cu.in. questions.



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9650
5000200020005001002525
Location: So. Cal		They called that the power pak in '55-'56. I'm surprised they changed the name on it.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
local2Ed
Posted 2022-09-29 7:06 PM (#624587 - in reply to #624574)
Subject: Re: 1957 Plymouth 301cu.in. questions.


Extreme Veteran

Posts: 580
500252525
56D500boy - 2022-09-29 1:18 PM



Like the 301s, the 1957 277 was also designated a "P31" (the flat head six was a P30 in 1957). So finding a "P31-nnnnn" stamping on a 1957 Plymouth poly engine block just below the front of left head did NOT guarantee it being a 301.


:)


Yep, that's why I was looking to verify what engine it is.
Knowing what engine that was in it from the factory doesn't tell me what engine is in it now.
P-31 is not specific to one cubic inch.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2022-09-29 8:16 PM (#624588 - in reply to #624587)
Subject: Re: 1957 Plymouth 301cu.in. questions.



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9900
500020002000500100100100100
Location: Lower Mainland BC
local2Ed - 2022-09-29 4:06 PM.
P-31 is not specific to one cubic inch.


Unfortunately, that would seem to be true. Somewhere (??) there must have been an engine number listing that separated P31 277s from P31 301s.

The "best" (and it is not good) info that I have is from Jon G. Robinson's book "Standard Catalog of 1950s Chrysler" wherein, on page 204, he states:

"Engine Numbers were: (Six) P30-1001 to P30-177184; (V-8) P31-1001 to P31-492995 and (Fury V-8) FP31-1001 to FP31-492995."

There must be something wrong with the FP31 numbers because there is no way that there were 491994 Fury 2 x 4bbl engines made, even if that included the V-800 engines.

So unless somebody can unearth a better source of data, the only way to determine whether a P31 V8 is a 277 or a 301 is to open up the engine to check the bore and stroke. (??)

Makes no sense.

Finally, by 1960, they had an engine numbering system:




Edited by 56D500boy 2022-09-29 8:18 PM




(1960MoparEngineNumbers.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments 1960MoparEngineNumbers.jpg (101KB - 62 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
58coupe
Posted 2022-09-30 11:12 AM (#624604 - in reply to #624402)
Subject: Re: 1957 Plymouth 301cu.in. questions.



Expert

Posts: 1740
100050010010025
Location: Alaska		I have a 57 Belvedere sitting in my yard and the engine size is stamped on the left front of the block, 301
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2022-09-30 11:34 AM (#624605 - in reply to #624604)
Subject: Re: 1957 Plymouth 301cu.in. questions.



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9900
500020002000500100100100100
Location: Lower Mainland BC
58coupe - 2022-09-30 8:12 AM
I have a 57 Belvedere sitting in my yard and the engine size is stamped on the left front of the block, 301


Any chance of a nice clear photo for the forum archives?? (Please)

Top of the page Bottom of the page
58coupe
Posted 2022-10-02 11:58 AM (#624644 - in reply to #624402)
Subject: Re: 1957 Plymouth 301cu.in. questions.



Expert

Posts: 1740
100050010010025
Location: Alaska		I will try.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2022-10-02 2:33 PM (#624648 - in reply to #624588)
Subject: Re: 1957 Plymouth 301cu.in. questions.



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9900
500020002000500100100100100
Location: Lower Mainland BC		.
Bumped into some new 1957 Plymouth V8 identification info (NOT verified) - the last paragraph, at the bottom of the image, below:

1618 729 = 277

1737 929 = 301 or 318 (but we have seen 318s are also stamped FP31, not just P31)

Anybody able to confirm the 1737 929 or 1618 729??





Edited by 56D500boy 2022-10-02 2:40 PM




(highperf3.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments highperf3.jpg (56KB - 60 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
58coupe
Posted 2022-10-03 11:51 AM (#624665 - in reply to #624402)
Subject: Re: 1957 Plymouth 301cu.in. questions.



Expert

Posts: 1740
100050010010025
Location: Alaska		Dave, the FP31 stamping on the 318 engines should only be on the dual quad Fury engines even though the basic block will still have the same part number.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page]
Jump to forum :
Search this forum
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread

* * * This site contains affiliate links for which we may be compensated * * *


(Delete all cookies set by this site)