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 Considerations related to installing a 56 Chrysler front sway bar into a 56 Dodge (or Plym)Jump to page : 1 Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
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56D500boy |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9900     Location: Lower Mainland BC | . Background: I have a May 15, 1956 build 1956 Dodge equipped with the D500 260 hp 4 bbl dual exhaust 315 hemi (double rocker) that came with the 1956 Windsor 12” x 2.5” front brakes *BUT* not the heavier duty suspension bits that the early “Full Monty” 56 Dodge D500s that were announced on Dec. 22, 1955. My particular car is missing the stiffer lower front springs and the stiffer lower 6 leaf rear springs that the early D500s might have got. While I *might* be able to find the 1659 590 rear springs (also used on the 56 Plymouth Furys), I doubt that I can find the D500 exclusive front coil springs. What I can (and did) find is the 56 Chrysler (and Desoto) 1639 165 front sway bar that was used on the 56 D500-1s from the factory. Might be over kill on my car but I have it now. (Turns out that the “civilian” D500s got the normal 13/16” bar – it was the D500-1 race chassis cars that got the larger 7/8” bar). So now that I have the 56 Chrysler bar, I have to figure out how best to install it. To do this, there are a few things to consider: 1. Bar width: We know that the 56 Chryslers were bigger than the 56 Dodges (56 Chrysler track width = 60.5” vs 56 Dodge at about 58.9”) so the Chrysler bar will be wider by a bit. Might not be an issue(?) 2. Bracket size and hole spacing – how far is the Chrysler bar away from the frame rails versus the Dodge bar and what is the spacing of the holes in the mounting bracket and does any of it matter? 3. How to mount the ends of the anti-sway bar to the lower control arm? a) Just bend the ends of the bar back (pre-load it, front to back) and clamp it down? *OR* b) Adjust the bar mount to bring the bar back to the 56 Dodge lower control arms 4. There will likely be some related minor issue to deal with as well, e.g. replacement bushings. Detailed Discussion: 1. Sway bar width: 55 Chrysler Front Tread width = 60.22" 55/56 Dodge Front Tread width = 58.9" (1.32" difference or 0.66" on each side away from the centerline) There is a width difference but this easily solved by walking the Chrysler brackets and bushings in on both sides by about 0.66 in per side. The trick will be to make sure that the bar is centered on the brackets so the “overhang” of the sway bar is the same on both ends. A good measuring tape and that one is (or will be) solved.  2. Bracket size and hole spacing: Turns out that the hole size and spacing is the same for both the 56 Dodge and the 56 Chrysler brackets at about 4 5/8”. The stand-off off each is different. The 56 Dodge stand-off from the frame mount to the centerline of the bar is about 75 mm or just under 3 inches. The 56 Chrysler bar stand-off from the frame mount to the centerline of the bar is slightly more at about 82 mm or about 3 3/16”, so about 5 mm difference. I am thinking that 5 mm is not enough to make much of a difference. So nothing to do there.  3. Mounting the ends of the bar to the lower control arm. I think there are two options: a) Option 1: Mount the bar using the normal stock 56 Chrysler brackets in the original frame horn holes and then bend the ends of the bar back to the lower control arm (using a rachet strap or …??) and then clamp the end with the rubber cushion to the lower control arm using the same cushion retainer in the same location as the 56 Dodge bar. I asked Nathan N. (Powerflite) about that: "I presume the mounting procedure will be to mount the bar with the two bar-to-frame brackets first and then "magically" attach the ends of the bars with their rubber cushions and metal brackets to the lower control arms. What did you use to cinch the bar ends to the lower control arms? Seems like it might be a job for rachet-straps??" To which Nathan replied: "Right, that's how I did it too. I just used a large pair of channel locks & vice grips to get the clamp in place. The channel locks give you quite a bit of leverage." He also pointed me to his 2007 thread when he was first installing a hemi in his 56 Savoy: http://forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=13584&post... He posted this photo in that thread (showing how he walked in the bracket mounts and the attachment at the lower control arm bar cushion retainer) b) Option 2: Modify the 56 Chrysler bar mount brackets so the bar can be mounted about 1” (25 mm) towards the rear of the car than the OE 56 Dodge bar. This option was presented to me by Peter S. (Caprock Classics). The idea is that will bring the ends of the bar back enough to the lower control arm that they do not have to be bent into position. Clamping the ends of the bar to the lower control arm would have two options: i) Option 2a: Reusing the OE cushion retainer in the OE location like Nathan did in "Option 1". This seems to leave about 1 to 1.5” of bar protruding out the cushion retainer bracket. (see photos below). The bracket modification entails adding a new mounting plate to which the 56 Chrysler bracket is attached and then moving the assembly back the 1” needed to contact the bar end with the lower control arm. Details to be determined. ii) Option 2b: Modifying the lower control arm to move the position of the cushion retainer bracket outwards (towards the king pin end of the lower control arm) to maximize the leverage of the anti-sway bar. The bracket mount modification would be the same as Option 2a. However, it will also require modifications to be made to the lower control arm to move the cushion retainer outboard by about an inch. It should be noted that mounting the 56 Chrysler bracket requires the removal of the 56 Dodge bracket. This involves the removal of two 7/6” x 20 bolts (5/8” hex head and 11/16” hex nut) per side. The front-most bracket bolt is relatively easy to remove (probably hasn’t been off in 66 years). HOWEVER, removal of the rear-most bracket bolt CAN NOT be removed until the rear most bumper bracket attachment bolt is removed from the frame horn. If left in place, there is no way to get a 5/8” socket or wrench on the bolt head (which is buried inside the frame horn, accessed through a factory hole). Removing the bumper attachment bolt allows access to the rear sway bar bracket bolt head. Get out the PB Blaster/Liquid Wrench and start spraying things down. NOW. I really don't know which way to go. Option 1 is the easiest but it puts some strain on the lower control arm mounting bushings. Option 2b is probably the base but it requires the most work and mods. Option 2a (what Peter S did) is probably the compromise between easy and less strain.(??) I created this table to help me decide. Thanks for your inputs Nathan and Peter Edited by 56D500boy 2022-12-01 8:07 PM (ConsiderationsForMountingTheEndsOfA56ChryslerAntiSwayBarOnA56Dodge.jpg) (56DodgeAntiSwayBarMountingBoltSpacing_1.jpg) (56ChryslerAntiSwayBarMountingBoltSpacing_1.jpg) (56DodgeAntiSwayBarMountingStandOffBracketDistance_2.jpg) (56ChryslerAntiSwayBracketStandoffDistanceToCenterOfBar80mm_2.jpg) (AccessToTheRearSwayBarBracketBoltHeadBLOCKEDByTheRearMostBumperBracketBolt.jpg) (56DodgeChassis_TheoreticalChryslerBar_Base_Detail.jpg) (56DodgeChassis_TheoreticalChryslerBar_Option1_Detail.jpg) (56DodgeChassis_SquaredFront_Option2_Detail.jpg) (Option2a_PeterSs56ChryslerFrontBarOn56Dodge.jpg) (PeterSs56ChryslerFrontBarOn56Dodge_ModifiedBarMountToMoveBarBackOneInchOrSo.jpg) (Option2bPeterS56ChryslerFrontBarOn56Dodge_CushionRetainerMovedOutboard.jpg) (55-56DodgePlymouthLowerControlArm_ModifedToMoveCushionRetainerFurtherOut.jpg) (ProbablyTheFurthestTheCushionRetainerCanBeMovedEvenWithMods.jpg) Attachments ----------------  ConsiderationsForMountingTheEndsOfA56ChryslerAntiSwayBarOnA56Dodge.jpg (95KB - 84 downloads) 56DodgeAntiSwayBarMountingBoltSpacing_1.jpg (169KB - 87 downloads) 56ChryslerAntiSwayBarMountingBoltSpacing_1.jpg (113KB - 86 downloads) 56DodgeAntiSwayBarMountingStandOffBracketDistance_2.jpg (107KB - 84 downloads) 56ChryslerAntiSwayBracketStandoffDistanceToCenterOfBar80mm_2.jpg (199KB - 84 downloads) AccessToTheRearSwayBarBracketBoltHeadBLOCKEDByTheRearMostBumperBracketBolt.jpg (191KB - 88 downloads) 56DodgeChassis_TheoreticalChryslerBar_Base_Detail.jpg (113KB - 81 downloads) 56DodgeChassis_TheoreticalChryslerBar_Option1_Detail.jpg (121KB - 82 downloads) 56DodgeChassis_SquaredFront_Option2_Detail.jpg (126KB - 84 downloads) Option2a_PeterSs56ChryslerFrontBarOn56Dodge.jpg (130KB - 77 downloads) PeterSs56ChryslerFrontBarOn56Dodge_ModifiedBarMountToMoveBarBackOneInchOrSo.jpg (88KB - 83 downloads) Option2bPeterS56ChryslerFrontBarOn56Dodge_CushionRetainerMovedOutboard.jpg (137KB - 80 downloads) 55-56DodgePlymouthLowerControlArm_ModifedToMoveCushionRetainerFurtherOut.jpg (139KB - 76 downloads) ProbablyTheFurthestTheCushionRetainerCanBeMovedEvenWithMods.jpg (150KB - 84 downloads) | ||
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| 56D500boy |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9900 Location: Lower Mainland BC | . Dieter auf der Schweiz has sent me a photo of the cushion mounting end of this 56 Chrysler's front anti-sway bar (see below). As I suspected, the intent of the mount is to be right at the end of the sway bar which, based on my options list above, would be Option 2b. However, with the 56 Chrysler, this works out naturally and does not require moving the attachment point out board like I (or others) would have to do on a 56 Dodge. Nevertheless, good to know (Thanks Dieter) Edited by 56D500boy 2022-12-05 4:01 PM (Dieters56ChryslerFrontSwayBarMountAtTheCushionRetainer_small.jpg) Attachments ---------------- Dieters56ChryslerFrontSwayBarMountAtTheCushionRetainer_small.jpg (97KB - 84 downloads) | ||
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| 56D500boy |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9900 Location: Lower Mainland BC | . I had my 56 Dodge out of the tiny 12 x 20 garage yesterday in an attempt at cleaning and organizing my tools, in particular my new set of Milwaukee 1/2" deep impact sockets that I recently used on another project. While I was doing that, I decided to "investigate" (poke at) the front anti-sway bar mounts on the Dodge. This meant finally using the 1/2" 90 Deg Milwaukee impact wrench that I bought a few months ago for the actual reason I bought it: removing the sway bar mounts. The issue in this case is, while the front sway bar bracket/mount bolt is easily accessed, the rear most bolt is hidden by the rear most bumper bracket bolt, i.e. the bumper bracket bolt has to come off first. This is the issue: I had not tested the sizes of the sockets needed to remove the bumper bracket bolt before (or if I did, I had forgotten what they were) so that had to happen. Bottomline is the bolts that hold the bumper brackets to the 56 Dodge frame are 9/16 x 18 which for 56 Dodges means the bolt head is 13/16" and the nut is 7/8". I should have found this thread and checked out the photo above before I tried to loosen the bolt because the crud in the exposed 9/16 x 18 threads hung up the removal process trial. I should have at least blasted the exposed end with brake cleaner first to remove some of the crud. As it were, I got the bolt out with a combination of the impact wrench (and sockets), my 1/2" ratchet and a 22" 1/2" breaker bar. Once the bolt was out, I cleaned up the bolt threads with a 9/16 x 18 die and WD40 (and a die holder and my 1/2" ratchet). Once that was done, next up was that no longer hidden anti-sway bar bracket bolt. The bolt (as previously mentioned in this thread) is a 7/16 x 20 bolt. The head of the bolt is 5/8" and the nut is 11/16". It was tricky getting a 5/8" normal (not deep) socket and 1/2" ratchet through that frame hole and onto the bolt head while at the same time getting the impact wrench and an 11/16" deep impact socket positioned on the nut. At least this time I got smart and wire brushed the accumulated crud off the exposed threads. This made removal of the nut much easier than the uncleaned 9/16" bumper bracket nut. (Live and learn). I am going to repeat the process on the passenger side today, this time at least blasting the exposed 9/16" x 18 threads of the bumper bracket bolt before I attempt the removal. Should be easier (Live and learn). Once that is done, when I have the car up on ramps for an oil change early next week (or sooner), I will totally remove the stock sway bar and test fit the 56 Chrysler bar. At this point, I think that I will just go with Option 1 because it, hopefully, is the easiest. This impact wrench ( I need to figure out if there are higher torque settings than I used). I run it with a 5 Amp-hr battery, not 2. Edited by 56D500boy 2023-07-01 11:17 AM (Milwaukee90degHalfInchImpactWrench.jpg) Attachments ---------------- Milwaukee90degHalfInchImpactWrench.jpg (103KB - 56 downloads) | ||
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| 56D500boy |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9900 Location: Lower Mainland BC | . Re-And-Re'd the bumper bracket bolt and the sway bar bracket bolts on the passenger side today. I made an attempt at cleaning the exposed threads on the 9/16 x 18 bumper bracket bolt but it wasn't good enough. The 90 deg 1/2" drive impact wrench with 7/8 socket on the nut worked well (holding the bolt head with a 13/16" socket and ratchet) for a while. But then the nut bogged down on the cruddy threads. I ended up using the 7/8 deep socket with a 22" breaker bar on the nut end and my 12" ratchet and 13/16" socket on the bolt head end cranking on the bolt by hand. Not good.  I even checked that I was in the highest impact mode ("3") but that didn't help. Cleaned up (ran a die over) all the bolts involved to make the actual removal easier nexzt week. A couple of photos: Edited by 56D500boy 2023-07-02 1:10 PM (AccessToTheRearSwayBarBracketBoltHeadBLOCKEDByTheRearMostBumperBracketBolt_PassengerSide.jpg) (Milwaukee90degHalfInchImpactWrench_with7-8thsDeepImpactSocketOnRearMostRightSideBumperBracketNut.jpg) Attachments ---------------- AccessToTheRearSwayBarBracketBoltHeadBLOCKEDByTheRearMostBumperBracketBolt_PassengerSide.jpg (149KB - 54 downloads) Milwaukee90degHalfInchImpactWrench_with7-8thsDeepImpactSocketOnRearMostRightSideBumperBracketNut.jpg (148KB - 59 downloads) | ||
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| dels56 |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 350  | |||
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| 56D500boy |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9900 Location: Lower Mainland BC | . Del: No need for a nut buster. I did get them off. It just took more manual effort than I had hoped for. Once I had them off, I cleaned up the threads with a die so that won't be an issue when I go back in and remove the sway bar today. | ||
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| 56D500boy |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9900 Location: Lower Mainland BC | 56D500boy - 2023-07-03 11:32 AM Once I had them off, I cleaned up the threads with a die so that won't be an issue when I go back in and remove the sway bar today. Installed the 56 Chrysler anti-sway bar on my 56 Dodge Custom Royal with the D500 engine and brakes today. Much easier than I thought it would be. No need for Options 2, 2a, 2b or 3, etc. Option 1 was just fine. Removed the 56 Dodge anti-sway bar. Measured it at 53/64 (13/16 would be 52/64). Measured the 56 Chrylser bar before I trialed it in place at 57/64 (7/8 would be 56/64) so 4/64 (1/16") difference in diameter. Hope that makes a huge difference in handling (but I doubt it) I trialed the 56 Chrysler bar on my 56 Dodge using the 56 Dodge hardware, initially only doing the nuts and bolts up finger tight (no tools). Looked promising. The gap between the back of the rubber buffer and the inner channel of the lower control arm was about 1/4" on both sides. (I should say that I had previously moved the 56 Chrysler mounting brackets inwards to match the C to C of the Left and Right 56 Dodge brackets. As a result, the position of the buffer at both ends of the 56 Chrysler bar were about the same. I was even able to massage the buffer mounting brackets to the point that I could get the buffer bracket bolt and nut started by hand. ) Once I was confident that heroic measures would not be needed to properly install the 56 Chrysler bar, I removed the bar and the buffer brackets and cleaned them up a bit before painting the bits that won't see sunshine for a long time using Tremclad Professional Semi-gloss black spray paint. While they were drying, I had a coffee and drained the oil in prep for an oil change (more on that in a different thread). Then I installed the bar and brackets properly, using wrenches, sockets, rachet and my 90 deg 1/2" Milwaukee impact wrench. I was initially able to get the buffer hold-down brackets in position to get the bolt and nut started by hand but then I remembered Nathan's channel lock suggestion and, after a bit of a search, found my Channel locks and used them to pull the buffer hold-down bracket closer to the control arm. Then I used my 5/8" socket and ratchet and 11/16" box end to tighten the buffer hold-down bracket nut and bolt. I was pressed for time by then I did not finalize the install with a coat of Tremclad paint on the exposed bits of the bar and brackets, etc. I will do that tomorrow as well as take the car for a spin and see if it was all worth it (I hope I notice some improvement). Some photos: Edited by 56D500boy 2023-07-04 2:44 AM (56ChryslerAntiSwayBarInstallation_ComparisonOfThe56ChryslerBarTopToThe56DodgeBarBottom.jpg) (56ChryslerAntiSwayBarInstallation_ComparisonOfThe56ChryslerBarToThe56DodgeBar_DodgeBarMeasurement.jpg) (56ChryslerAntiSwayBarInstallation_ComparisonOfThe56ChryslerBarToThe56DodgeBar_ChryslerBarMeasurement.jpg) (56ChryslerAntiSwayBarInstallation_56ChrylerBarOn56Dodge_FingerTight_BothSides.jpg) (56ChryslerAntiSwayBarInstallation_56ChrylerBarOn56Dodge_FingerTight_DriversSide.jpg) (56ChryslerAntiSwayBarInstallation_56ChrylerBarOn56Dodge_FingerTight_PassengerSide.jpg) (56ChryslerAntiSwayBarInstallation_56ChrylerBarOn56Dodge_FingerTight_PassengerSide_BufferToControlArmGap.jpg) (56ChryslerAntiSwayBarInstallation_56ChrylerBarOn56Dodge_FingerTight_DriversSide_BufferToControlArmGap.jpg) (56ChryslerAntiSwayBarInstallation_56ChrylerBarOn56Dodge_FingerTight_BufferClamp.jpg) (56ChryslerAntiSwayBarInstallation_56ChrylerBarOn56DodgeImpactWrenchTightt_BothSides.jpg) Attachments ---------------- 56ChryslerAntiSwayBarInstallation_ComparisonOfThe56ChryslerBarTopToThe56DodgeBarBottom.jpg (138KB - 59 downloads) 56ChryslerAntiSwayBarInstallation_ComparisonOfThe56ChryslerBarToThe56DodgeBar_DodgeBarMeasurement.jpg (149KB - 59 downloads) 56ChryslerAntiSwayBarInstallation_ComparisonOfThe56ChryslerBarToThe56DodgeBar_ChryslerBarMeasurement.jpg (143KB - 58 downloads) 56ChryslerAntiSwayBarInstallation_56ChrylerBarOn56Dodge_FingerTight_BothSides.jpg (147KB - 52 downloads) 56ChryslerAntiSwayBarInstallation_56ChrylerBarOn56Dodge_FingerTight_DriversSide.jpg (146KB - 53 downloads) 56ChryslerAntiSwayBarInstallation_56ChrylerBarOn56Dodge_FingerTight_PassengerSide.jpg (148KB - 56 downloads) 56ChryslerAntiSwayBarInstallation_56ChrylerBarOn56Dodge_FingerTight_PassengerSide_BufferToControlArmGap.jpg (147KB - 63 downloads) 56ChryslerAntiSwayBarInstallation_56ChrylerBarOn56Dodge_FingerTight_DriversSide_BufferToControlArmGap.jpg (149KB - 55 downloads) 56ChryslerAntiSwayBarInstallation_56ChrylerBarOn56Dodge_FingerTight_BufferClamp.jpg (149KB - 58 downloads) 56ChryslerAntiSwayBarInstallation_56ChrylerBarOn56DodgeImpactWrenchTightt_BothSides.jpg (147KB - 60 downloads) | ||
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| JedRhule |
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Veteran Posts: 101 Location: Palm Beach County Florida | |||
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| 56D500boy |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9900 Location: Lower Mainland BC | JedRhule - 2023-07-04 3:46 PM I see that the last photo was after the Exxon Valdez sailed through. Very correct. I have subsequently cut up the worst of the oil-soaked cardboard and put it in my garbage bin for collection tomorrow AM. Since our garbage goes to a waste-to-energy incinerator, this will actually be an energy bonus. | ||
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| 56D500boy |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9900 Location: Lower Mainland BC | . Theoretically finished the installation of the 7/8" diameter 56 Chrysler anti-sway bar on my 56 Dodge D500 "Special" (which only came with the normal 13/16" diameter bar). I sprayed some more Tremclad Professional (fast drying) Semi-gloss black on the bar, the brackets and the bolts, but as you might see from the photos below, I need to spray some more. While I was there, I checked how far the buffers (rubber bushings) got pushed into the channel of the lower control arm. In general, I would say "quite far", perhaps as far as possible. Photos from today (this *should* close out this project). (56DodgeWith56ChryslerAntiSwayBar_FinalInstall_ShowingBothChryslerMountsInPlace.jpg) (56DodgeWith56ChryslerAntiSwayBar_FinalInstall_PassengerSide.jpg) (56DodgeWith56ChryslerAntiSwayBar_FinalInstall_PassengerSide_BufferToControlArmSpacing.jpg) (56DodgeWith56ChryslerAntiSwayBar_FinalInstall_DriversrSide.jpg) (56DodgeWith56ChryslerAntiSwayBar_FinalInstall_DriversrSide_BufferToLowerControlArmSpacing.jpg) Attachments ---------------- 56DodgeWith56ChryslerAntiSwayBar_FinalInstall_ShowingBothChryslerMountsInPlace.jpg (147KB - 66 downloads) 56DodgeWith56ChryslerAntiSwayBar_FinalInstall_PassengerSide.jpg (148KB - 67 downloads) 56DodgeWith56ChryslerAntiSwayBar_FinalInstall_PassengerSide_BufferToControlArmSpacing.jpg (145KB - 57 downloads) 56DodgeWith56ChryslerAntiSwayBar_FinalInstall_DriversrSide.jpg (145KB - 55 downloads) 56DodgeWith56ChryslerAntiSwayBar_FinalInstall_DriversrSide_BufferToLowerControlArmSpacing.jpg (144KB - 58 downloads) | ||
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| wizard |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 13045  Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | |||
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| 56D500boy |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9900 Location: Lower Mainland BC | wizard - 2023-07-05 2:50 AM Cornering and ride improvement? Seems like the front end is tighter now. Definitely more responsive to the steering wheel. Not sure about lean but it seems like it is less and less "wallowing". I will report back once I have tried the car on the highway, not just around town. PS: It looks like I need to give the driver's side buffer clamp a whack with a steel hammer to fully seat the inner-most tang on the clamp in the holes in the lower control arm. I didn't notice that until I examined this photo more closely: Edited by 56D500boy 2023-07-06 3:47 PM | ||
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| 56D500boy |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9900 Location: Lower Mainland BC | 56D500boy - 2023-07-06 12:44 PM Seems like the front end is tighter now. Definitely more responsive to the steering wheel. Not sure about lean but it seems like it is less and less "wallowing". I will report back once I have tried the car on the highway, not just around town. I was on the highway in the old girl today, keeping up with traffic. I am definitely happy with the 56 Chrysler front bar installation. Feels much more secure at highways speeds than it did before. And this is with the exact same front and rear shocks. Would recommend, especially since the installation turned out to be much easier than originally anticipated. | ||
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