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Expert
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Location: Valley Forge, Pa. | My 60 Plymouth 318 powerflight non-AC car has always run cool. Towing my boat of 6 hours to upstate NY in August but up long hills,
it would sometimes run hot for a bit but never overheated. I adjusted the timing a little and it ran cooler.
Anyway, this year before I went up, my original radiator started leaking to the point I wasn't comfortable using it so I bought an inexpensive aluminum one.
The overall width was a little short so I had to make brackets approx. 1". Everything else lined up fine.
Ran fine for 2 months and now it is leaking so bad I can't go more than 20 miles and it is empty. I'm getting the original one recored.
The guy that's recoring it said that aluminum radiators need to have some sort of rubber bushings or anti-vibration insulators in the mounting because aluminum doesn't have the give brass does.
Always make sure it has a good ground.
I have a trans cooler mounted on the front of the original rad that I used the long plastic pins to mount. He said the ones that come with the cooler kit,
often loosen and those push through plastic pieces can cut the fins. He said to use flat wire ties that are smooth.
I always use distilled water but he said to never use tap water in aluminum.
Oh and one thing I never new, I ran low and had some orange GM anti-freeze. I just thought it was some ploy for GM to make people buy their anti-freeze.
I added it and I got home and then I googled the difference. It said to never add orange to green as they will react and from a gel or sludge and clog your rad.
Maybe everyone in the world is aware of all of this but if not, there is some useful info here. |
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Expert
Posts: 3031
Location: N.W. Fla. | " It said to never add orange to green as they will react and from a gel or sludge and clog your rad." Bingo! I used rubber matt as a vibration damper on the alloy radiator on mu '60 Plym. |
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Location: Valley Forge, Pa. | And - I took my Suburban out today with that cheap leaking aluminum radiator and as soon as it got hot, I lost all my water in just a couple miles.
Had a gallon of water and added it as it steamed away. Always add cold water slowly so you don't take a chance to warp or crack anything.
I got home but it left a obvious trail. I don't know what to say. The radiator just self destructed like it was pressed together but never soldered? |
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Location: Valley Forge, Pa. | Got my rad. back today. It took approx. 3 weeks but that was because he got the wrong core and had to reorder. I JUST got it so I will install it tomorrow. I went with a 2 core because I have never had any heating issues but it obviously would cost a little more to go to a 3 core.
I am 69 and asked how long he expects it will be solid and he said it is solid and will last longer than I will be driving.
It cost me $425.
IF anyone is interested -
Dick's Radiator Repair
335 W. High St. #6313
Pottstown, Pa. 19464
His name is actually Chris and probably in his mid 60s.
He's an "old school" racer that, really bad, still uses lead solder but he knows how bad that is but he won't change.
I didn't ask for a "correct" restoration, just to have a reliable radiator. I don't know if he does perfect restorations.
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8443
Location: Perth Australia | Can you show a picture of your radiator please. I am interested in how you cushioned it
Cheers
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Expert
Posts: 1348
Location: Valley Forge, Pa. | Hello,
Not sure what you are asking. This is the original 1960 Plymouth radiator.
It is bolted directly to the frame. Metal to metal.
The junk aftermarket aluminum should have some sort of cushion/insulator between the frame and the radiator flange
such as innertube rubber and then should be well grounded.
Is that what you are looking for? |
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Veteran
Posts: 143
Location: Denver, Colorado, USA | udoittwo - 2022-12-16 11:26 AM The guy that's recoring it said that aluminum radiators need to have some sort of rubber bushings or anti-vibration insulators in the mounting because aluminum doesn't have the give brass does. Always make sure it has a good ground.
This is going to be a very long post, but the misinformation out there requires digging into the facts. The radiator shop you used may be knowledgeable about brass radiators, although I wouldn't use them after hearing what they told you, but the info he told you is both inaccurate and damaging. Then again, he sells radiators for a living and wants people to have radiators fail and buy his services.
The purpose of using rubber pads between the aluminum radiator and the steel core support has nothing to do with vibration; it has to do with stopping electrolysis that may lead to the formation of a current and eventually galvanic corrosion. This principle also makes the guy's claim to "always make sure the radiator has a good ground" scary. A non-iron radiator should never have a dedicated ground, let alone a good one. While the physics is complicated, if an aluminum radiator is grounded to the chassis through the steel core support or a dedicated ground wire like the radiator shop recommends, the cooling system has the potential of producing electrolysis strong enough to turn the coolant acidic through chemical reaction, much like how water in a lead battery with a current and two dissimilar metals turns into acid. There have to be specific circumstances to turn the cooling system into a low-volt battery, but one of them is the relationship of the battery ground to the radiator. If the aluminum radiator is grounded through the core support or a dedicated wire in a way that makes a shorter path for current from headlights, engine components, and other components to make its way back to the battery, then the current will bypass the intended grounding route and flow through the aluminum radiator. In turn, the coolant that is touching two dissimilar metals (iron in the engine block/heads/manifold and aluminum in the radiator) is now charged and ready for electrolysis. The resulting acidic coolant creates galvanic corrosion and after time will rot the aluminum and iron it contacts from the inside out, especially in cheap, thin radiators and heater cores. For these reasons, an aluminum radiator or heater core should always be insulated from the steel body, the engine should have a strong ground to the battery and chassis, the electrical components around the radiator should be grounded in a way that ensures the radiator isn't the shortest path back to battery ground, and the radiator should never be independently grounded to anything. For aluminum radiators that are properly separated with rubber pads and not grounded, galvanic corrosion makes up and extremely small fraction of radiator failures. Since your aluminum radiator was both "cheap" in your words (which means it was made of light-gauge aluminum) and not properly insulated from the body/chassis, it may very well have rotted out due to galvanic corrosion.
The more likely cause of aluminum radiator failure, especially when they are insulated from the electrical system, is from pitting corrosion. The two leading causes of pitting corrosion are improper antifreeze to water ratio and a dirty system with free-floating debris, which is extremely common in our classic vehicles. The worst is a combination of these two causes. Small particles in the system (such as rust flakes and dust from the block/heads/intake manifold) settle and pack into the nooks and crannies of the radiator corners and around the tubes and block out the antifreeze and its anti-corrosion chemicals. With the lack of these chemicals, corrosion sets in. The best visual for pitting corrosion is what we see when taking off the radiator hose that has been secured to an iron thermostat housing or water pump for way too long and we find severe flaking rust between the hose and iron that can eat through the entire iron housing. That's pitting corrosion. Along with debris in the system causing pitting corrosion, if the coolant mixture is incorrect and has too much water, which commonly happens when people top off their radiators or overflow tanks with straight water and never match it with straight antifreeze, the pitting corrosion accelerates. Pitting corrosion is the number one cause of aluminum radiator failure often due to lack of proper precautions and maintenance of running a filter in the radiator hose, flushing the system on older iron-block engines more frequently than newer vehicles, and maintaining a proper coolant mixture ratio. Pitting corrosion was much less of an issue when our engines were ten years old, but they are now archaic and have plenty of rust debris in the block/head/intake.
In all likelihood, your aluminum radiator rotted out prematurely from both galvanic corrosion and pitting corrosion attacking cheap light-gauge aluminum. Without testing the coolant and cutting open and examining the radiator at the time of failure, you'll never know. A quality aluminum 2-row radiator (the tubes are much larger than the brass radiator equivalent) will outperform the same surface area 4-row brass radiator in cooling and are far lighter to boot. Even a quality aluminum radiator is also far cheaper in price. When the radiator is properly insulated from the electrical system, wiring grounds are placed to where the radiator cannot be the shortest path to ground, the system is flushed for routine maintenance, and the proper coolant ratio is maintained, an aluminum radiator lasts. I've had one in service in a classic car for twenty years with no issue, and my brother's 1996 Chevy pickup has the factory aluminum radiator with 320K miles on it still cooling that 350 Vortec engine. Brass radiators have their place too, but I wanted to comment since the assumption has been that aluminum radiators are junk compared to brass regardless the context surrounding the installation and maintenance. |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: Perth Australia | " like how water in a lead battery with a current and two dissimilar metals turns into acid."
Incorrect. The fluid in a battery is Sulfuric Acid, diluted to about 33%. If you put pure water into a dry battery (never had any acid in it), nothing will happen.
The reason you earth an Aluminium radiator is to prevent an electrical potential being produced inside the radiator by the movement of the coolant and
induced voltages from things such as thermo fans and temperature or level sensors. All vehicle manufacturers ground their radiators for this reason.
Galvanic reaction is a problem whenever you get 2 dissimilar metals in contact with each other. The use of rubber insulators between the radiator and core support
is both to stop vibration damage as well as galvanic reaction of its mounting.
As an Auto Electrician that works in an underground mine with salty water everywhere, I fight this issue daily
Dirty (un pure) water can act as an electrolyte (like Sulfuric Acid) or for that matter, an Alkaline. I use reverse electrolysis for rust removal using a washing soda/water mix
as an electrolyte. An aluminium part cleaned in this way would be a pitted mess, as what happens if an aluminium radiator is not grounded
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Location: Denver, Colorado, USA | ttotired - 2023-05-18 5:14 PM " like how water in a lead battery with a current and two dissimilar metals turns into acid." Incorrect. The fluid in a battery is Sulfuric Acid, diluted to about 33%. If you put pure water into a dry battery (never had any acid in it), nothing will happen. The reason you earth an Aluminium radiator is to prevent an electrical potential being produced inside the radiator by the movement of the coolant and induced voltages from things such as thermo fans and temperature or level sensors. All vehicle manufacturers ground their radiators for this reason. Galvanic reaction is a problem whenever you get 2 dissimilar metals in contact with each other. The use of rubber insulators between the radiator and core support is both to stop vibration damage as well as galvanic reaction of its mounting. As an Auto Electrician that works in an underground mine with salty water everywhere, I fight this issue daily Dirty (un pure) water can act as an electrolyte (like Sulfuric Acid) or for that matter, an Alkaline. I use reverse electrolysis for rust removal using a washing soda/water mix as an electrolyte. An aluminium part cleaned in this way would be a pitted mess, as what happens if an aluminium radiator is not grounded
Your opinion about needing to ground an aluminum radiator contradicts accepted and proven automotive electrical engineering in the context of retrofitting classic cars with aluminum radiators. I can't speak for mounting aluminum radiators in mining equipment that is in constant contact with salt water in a mine, however, and the two scenarios are vastly different to where it doesn’t surprise me that they require different approaches to resist corrosion.
Sincerely, I wouldn't waste my time or risk people's vehicles and them being stranded on the road to give bunk information, and the topic of isolating versus purposefully grounding an aluminum radiator in a classic vehicle is a well-worn path also covered by major high-end aftermarket radiator manufacturers like Griffin and Be Cool. I know at one point around 2010 or so Griffin's warranty explicitly stated that they would not warranty an aluminum radiator that wasn't isolated from the body/chassis and if the vehicle didn't have a confirmed sufficient engine and body ground to the chassis, and their instructions stated to isolate the radiator from the body/chassis via rubber, no ground, and to not ground any electrical fan or other components to the radiator. I recall reading an article in Mopar Performance in the early 2010s that covered the topic in depth as well. Those resources might be worth someone's time hunting down or calling Griffin to discuss if they want confirmation on how to install an aluminum radiator in their Forward Look vehicle.
A key part of my previous post that I'll draw attention to again so that it isn't lost in a debate boiled down to grounding or not grounding an aluminum radiator no matter the context is that very few (something like less than an estimated 7%) of automotive aluminum radiator failures are due to galvanic corrosion compared to like 90% from pitting corrosion developed out of improper coolant composition and systems prone to dirt contamination—like our old iron-block engines--not being properly maintained. Pitting corrosion has nothing to do with grounding or not grounding a radiator (although galvanic corrosion exacerbates any corrosion already developing), yet it is the far more likely killer. Isolating the aluminum radiator from the vehicle's electrical system coupled with strong engine and body grounds will resist corrosion longer than if the radiator were grounded, however, which is a wise choice paired with good coolant and system maintenance.
Edited by PolyJ 2023-05-19 2:23 AM
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Expert 5K+
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Location: Perth Australia | I do not dispute that incorrect coolant will destroy an aluminium radiator quickly, especially using tap water. It also will destroy all other aluminium engine parts.
I have noted that these other aluminium engine parts are also not insulated and a lot are mounted directly to cast iron.
I will leave this here
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Location: N.W. Fla. | Summit has a radiator cap that has a sacrificial zinc weight dangling down into the water to protect the alloy radiator, they also have another zinc item that screws into the drain****. As far as particles you can get a Gano filter that you cut your radiator hose going into the radiator and it will filter out particles. |
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Location: Denver, Colorado, USA | Mopar1 - 2023-05-21 2:14 PM Summit has a radiator cap that has a sacrificial zinc weight dangling down into the water to protect the alloy radiator, they also have another zinc item that screws into the drain****. As far as particles you can get a Gano filter that you cut your radiator hose going into the radiator and it will filter out particles.
Unfortunately, the small zinc alloy anode rods marketed for automotive systems are more snake oil than medicine. Because the ratio of cathodic to anodic area in the cooling system is heavily skewed toward the cathodic in relationship to the small zinc anode rod, the rod will quickly deteriorate where the aluminum that is only slightly more cathodic than zinc will corrode. I'd be curious to see if the aluminum wouldn't act as the anode simultaneously with a brand new zinc rod due to the aluminum's surface area being hundreds if not thousands of times larger than the zinc alloy rod despite the zinc being more noble. A more ideal setup would be to insolate the radiator from the body/chassis/electrical system and use a magnesium anode as a failsafe, although the anode rod wouldn't be necessary so long as the radiator were isolated and the coolant properly maintained. In any case, the anode rod helps address galvanic corrosion but not the more common pitting corrosion.
The best radiator filter on the market from what I've used over the last couple decades is the RedLine model 28-950 that allows for cleaning the screen without splitting the upper hose and removing the filter for each cleaning that requires losing coolant, topping off the system, and more time. But this and any other in-line filter only filters out large chunks of scale/debris to stop them from clogging the radiator tubes. They do nothing to filter out the fine particles smaller than about 1/32" - 1/16" diameter, depending on the screen mesh, that make up the bulk of the debris in the system. These fine particles are the ones that settle into the nooks and crannies and lead to pitting corrosion if the system is not flushed well at proper intervals along with good coolant maintenance. I always run a RedLine 28-950 in my old iron-block engines since without it the radiator tubes are easily clogged, especially after hot-tanking during a rebuild. The in-line filter almost always gets filled with debris within the first 100 miles after a rebuild no matter how much I pressure-wash, flush, and blow out the block and heads with compressed air before assembling the engine. From that point forward, cleaning the filter at each oil change is typical in my experience.
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Location: N.W. Fla. | My understandiing is that the coolant itself provides the pathway for electrolysis between iron and alloy parts. |
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Location: Minor Hill, TN | You can get the original radiator recored I am not sure how much it will cost that way you will still have the original radiator but like a brand new 1 |
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aluminum radiator
