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normsclassicradio

Posted 2024-04-20 1:14 PM (#634789)
Subject: The quest for more caster.

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Location: Kalispell, MT USA

I have been updating the front suspension and brakes on my 1964 Dodge 880, same as Newport thru 63. I replaced the upper control arm bushings, and all 4 ball joints. I installed 1979 Cordoba spindles and disc brakes. The original specs call for very little caster even with power steering. Dialing in more caster leaves me with negative camber. Has anyone experimented with shorter strut rods to pull the lower ball joint forward a little and get more caster?

Shep

Posted 2024-04-20 2:33 PM (#634791 - in reply to #634789)
Subject: Re: The quest for more caster.

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So how much caster can you get with acceptable camber? If you pull the strut rods forward enough to gain caster you will stress the lower arm bushings. Aftermarket control arms may be required.

normsclassicradio

Posted 2024-04-20 3:00 PM (#634792 - in reply to #634789)
Subject: RE: The quest for more caster.

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Location: Kalispell, MT USA

I would like to get 2 or maybe 3 degrees of caster while keeping .5 degree camber. See the before and after print-outs. I sacrificed camber for caster. This is not the final adjustment, just a rough-in after tweaking the steering arms on the Cordoba spindles and making sure I could get the toe-in close without modifying the tie rods themselves. I still am waiting for the idler arm rebuild kit.

(aling_before.jpg)

(align_after.jpg)

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aling_before.jpg (96KB - 114 downloads)
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align_after.jpg (120KB - 116 downloads)

wizard

Posted 2024-04-20 3:02 PM (#634793 - in reply to #634789)
Subject: Re: The quest for more caster.

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Max caster should roundabout 1,5 degrees without disturbing camber. If you want more caster, Moog has offset uca bushings.

Powerflite

Posted 2024-04-20 9:44 PM (#634798 - in reply to #634789)
Subject: Re: The quest for more caster.

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Even with the offset bushings, you'll be lucky to get 1.5, or maybe 2 degrees. If you really want more than that, you'll need to modify your upper control arms. Cut a section out of the rear, and add a section to the front of it. The upper control arms on these cars aren't load bearing, so it isn't as dangerous as it sounds. But using shorter strut rods is just asking for stress and trouble.

wizard

Posted 2024-04-21 8:41 AM (#634804 - in reply to #634789)
Subject: Re: The quest for more caster.

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Yes Nathan, I managed to get 1 27/32 degrees Caster with -3/32 degrees Camber using the standard bushings.

Just to clarify, that is with radial tires.

If more Caster is wanted, I'd go for uca- modifications or even tubular uca (there should be some on the market)

As for uca modifications, I'd use a sleeve and weld it offside https://www.qa1.net/circle-track/rod-ends-ball-joints1/racing-ball-j...

The Moog offset bushing will surely not last as long as the standard ones.

Powerflite

Posted 2024-04-21 10:52 AM (#634806 - in reply to #634789)
Subject: Re: The quest for more caster.

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There are manufacturing variances, and it depends heavily on how much you have your car lowered on the t-bars. I use the offset bushings on all my muscle cars. Some get 1.2 degrees, some get 2 degrees. But the good news is that 1.5 to 2 degrees seems to be enough to create a stable ride compared to 0 degrees. That's an interesting idea to weld in a new offset ball joint socket.

Shep

Posted 2024-04-21 11:56 AM (#634807 - in reply to #634806)
Subject: Re: The quest for more caster.

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Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George)

I got 1.5 caster on my friends 59 Dodge, maintained good camber, car was level, radial tires, tracked very well. All new stock control arm bushings.

wizard

Posted 2024-04-21 12:40 PM (#634808 - in reply to #634789)
Subject: Re: The quest for more caster.

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Just another clarification; I have original ride height on my car.

normsclassicradio

Posted 2024-04-22 4:51 PM (#634827 - in reply to #634789)
Subject: Re: The quest for more caster.

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Location: Kalispell, MT USA

All great suggestions. However, I see adjustable strut rods available for later b body cars. Are they also known to stress the lower control arm bushings? I would have a hard time modifying the upper a-arm stampings. See the attached photos.

(upper arms.jpg)

(dynamic_strut_bars_52311-450x450.jpg)

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upper arms.jpg (99KB - 108 downloads)
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dynamic_strut_bars_52311-450x450.jpg (10KB - 114 downloads)

Shep

Posted 2024-04-22 6:17 PM (#634830 - in reply to #634827)
Subject: Re: The quest for more caster.

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Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George)

If the struts are pulled forward excessively, you can see the pressure on the lower arm bushing, the issue is how far do you have to go to achieve the desired caster. If you look at the stock set up, they are not designed to be pulled forward for the purpose of caster adjustment. You would have to modify the inner bushing to gain any meaningful effect. Looking at the final settings from the shop, can't see how they left them that way, terrible. Check this link. https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/benefit-of-dynamic-stru...

Edited by Shep 2024-04-22 6:24 PM

1960fury

Posted 2024-04-22 7:47 PM (#634833 - in reply to #634789)
Subject: Re: The quest for more caster.

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? It is a logical consequence, that this will stress and wear out the lca bushing in a short time. Also, of course the lca needs to be in line with the torsion bar. So this is not the way to do it. 60 Plymouths have lots of overhang and lowered to the max (just driveable without too much tail dragging), it is still possible to get enough caster/camber with stock components, even though the upper bushings are stressed more. If I had the spare parts, I'd try modified uca's.

Edited by 1960fury 2024-04-22 10:22 PM

normsclassicradio

Posted 2024-04-22 8:13 PM (#634835 - in reply to #634789)
Subject: Re: The quest for more caster.

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Posts: 310
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Location: Kalispell, MT USA

The alignment report is just a first rough in adjustment. I'm doing it myself at the Dodge dealership I work at. I just want to have a plan for the next time I have it in the shop. I tweaked the steering arms to get the toe close enough to adjust with the adjustment sleeves. If I can find another set of upper control arms I may try taking 2 and making one. I'm inclined to just extend the front portion on the stamping, I will gain caster and camber doing it that way.

(upper arms crop.jpg)

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upper arms crop.jpg (75KB - 108 downloads)

1960fury

Posted 2024-04-22 10:18 PM (#634837 - in reply to #634835)
Subject: Re: The quest for more caster.

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If you cut it there, it will be more likely to crack and you have to worry about uca to frame bracket alignment (you will have to cut both sides). See the green line. Weld in a wedge shaped steel piece. Cardboard template first. The steel will be easy to bend, but secure the final position with 2 separate small steel pieces first, at the outer rails.

(uca.jpg)

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uca.jpg (76KB - 112 downloads)

normsclassicradio

Posted 2024-04-23 6:02 PM (#634849 - in reply to #634789)
Subject: RE: The quest for more caster.

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Posts: 310
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Location: Kalispell, MT USA

Hitting the pause button for a couple of weeks. The stock 64 brake booster turned out to be bad, and was probably not up to the task of the split disc/drum system anyway. I tried a stock Cordoba booster but it is too large and hits the valve cover and PS gear. So plan C is a A/B/E body master cylinder/booster that's smaller and has an off-set bracket. If that works, then back to suspension work.

Edited by normsclassicradio 2024-04-23 6:05 PM

(BOOSTER-MASTER CYL.png)

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BOOSTER-MASTER CYL.png (181KB - 124 downloads)

normsclassicradio

Posted 2024-05-03 6:29 PM (#635009 - in reply to #634849)
Subject: RE: The quest for more caster.

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Location: Kalispell, MT USA

Fair warning! This setup available on E-bay and other places is designed for GM master cylinders. Using the Mopar/Bendix master requires a change to the pushrod from the booster to the master. It is too short by about 35MM.

Powerflite

Posted 2024-05-04 12:40 PM (#635015 - in reply to #635009)
Subject: Re: The quest for more caster.

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I would try to get my old booster rebuilt before I would swap to something like that. If you call around to local rebuild places, I bet you'll find someone that can do it. Also, most Napa stores will send them out to their partners to rebuild parts like that. Makes it pretty easy to do and you don't have to modify everything. Even the old accordion boosters from '57-'58 work great on my old cars with disc/drum systems. Just mount a different master cylinder to your original booster.

I really try to avoid the '55-'57 Chevy scene, where you look inside the hood and see a small block crate motor with aluminum bling, a corvette master & booster, aluminum radiator etc. Boring! They all look the same! Using that aftermarket booster is the equivalent to this. I avoid that as much as possible and in reality, it isn't any cheaper and is harder to make it work well, and it looks much worse. Just my opinion. Also, I've used that tiny 8" dual diaphragm booster on my '63 Nova and was very unimpressed. An A-body doesn't even need a power booster, so it doesn't matter, but putting it on a large car is not going to give good results. Also, my opinion.

Regarding welding the arms, you will definitely want to keep it mounted to the car while you tack weld it in place, so you don't end up with a configuration that can't mount back onto the car afterward.

Edited by Powerflite 2024-05-04 12:53 PM

normsclassicradio

Posted 2024-05-04 7:30 PM (#635021 - in reply to #634789)
Subject: RE: The quest for more caster.

Extreme Veteran

Posts: 310
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Location: Kalispell, MT USA

I appreciate everyone's input. I rebuilt the idler arm today and put the car back on the alignment rack. I got the LH side pretty good, but the RH side was no joy. Then I remembered that I had not checked the ride height. It's been too many years since I did one of these cars. Sure enough the RH side over an inch higher than the left. I turned the torsion bar down until they both read 11 1/4 inches from road to inner arm pivot. Now it works! and the suspension is in the middle of the travel. See the photos. So all told I'm pretty happy with this work, the brakes work great and the car drives way better than before.